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Be More Pacific

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I listened to the redhanded podcast on the Soham murders in the car earlier and I was surprised (as were the girls) that Maxine Carr was only the 4th person in the UK to be given lifelong anonymity. Since then there’s been a further 2. Not sure I agree with Maxine being granted it though, the other 5 were all children at the time they committed crimes.
I wrote much of this sixteen years ago (can't actually believe it's been that long) but it still stands today.

Unfortunately, the reason Maxine Carr needs lifelong anonymity is because she has been vilified by the press in this country, desperate for a new Myra Hindley to write about. But Maxine Carr isn't Myra Hindley, not by a long chalk - she's just a very stupid and naive young woman.

To me, it boils down to this - she lied about her whereabouts. A pretty stupid lie as she was in Grimsby, out in the pubs, seen by lots of people and caught on CCTV, but a lie all the same. She absolutely categorically wasn't there when Holly and Jessica were murdered and the jury, who heard all the evidence, cleared her of assisting an offender. But how much damage did that lie do? Yes, it threw police off Ian Huntley's trail for a few days but he’s hardly a master criminal is he? Asking police officers about DNA and mobile phones? Not wanting to appear on national television? Scrubbing his car in front of the whole village? But even if they’d known Maxine Carr wasn’t there and they suspected him straight away, they wouldn’t have found Holly and Jessica’s bodies any quicker as they were discovered purely by chance. It took months of very thorough forensic work to prove that Holly and Jessica had actually been in his house and to link his car to where their bodies were found. As soon as he was arrested, he never talked, he was never going to confess – he pretended to be insane.

And I’ll tell you this, if I’d been out, drunk and kissing other men, no doubt feeling guilty, and had come home to my violent and controlling partner asking me to lie, and it never occurring to me that he had anything to do with these girls disappearing and knowing that if I didn’t lie, I’d no doubt get the shit kicked out of me (again) then I’d have lied too. And before people get all judgemental, how many people do lie to the police? Small lies - ‘Officer, I didn’t realise I was speeding’? - but lies all the same. We’re all capable of it – not in a case of this magnitude maybe – but as soon as she was arrested, she confessed she’d been lying.

I’ve also read headlines that Maxine Carr provided him with a ‘false' alibi once before – but when you read the story closely, you will find this: Ian Huntley was charged with rape, Maxine Carr gave him an alibi, the victim then said Ian Huntley didn’t do it and the charges was dropped. In my view, that ‘alibi’ has never been proven to be ‘false’ – it's just press manipulation once more.

No one will ever know for certain what happened in that house except Ian Huntley. Maxine Carr made an error of judgement however, it had no real impact on the outcome – the right person was caught and will, no doubt, spend the rest of his life in prison. To my mind, if Maxine Carr hadn’t gone out that night, Holly and Jessica would still be alive – I truly believe that’s what tipped Ian Huntley over the edge that evening. He'd been turned down by another woman he was trying to arrange a date with. He was angry about that and furious that Maxine was out on the town and out of his control. And then Holly and Jessica appear asking for Miss Carr....

Maxine Carr must live with that for the rest of her life and you don’t need to be in a prison to feel that kind of guilt
 
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Be More Pacific

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If anyone wants to take a deep dive, the Charlene Downes case is an interesting one. To start I recommend searching her name on Daily Motion and watching the three part docu series on there. Themes include Asian grooming gangs, Northern poverty and her frankly hellish family. Sadly the investigation was so bungled I don't think her case will ever be solved.
Her case was discussed at length on one of the earlier threads. I've not watched the documentary I think you're talking about so can't comment on it (the C5 one from a couple of years ago - her vile family also appeared weeping and wailing on The Jeremy Show Show at one point and I don't want to see them again) but I will just repeat again this article from The Times, which is from 2013, many years before the documentary, which I think says it all. And yes, I agree her case will never be solved.

"There goes Charlene Downes, ten years ago today, skipping towards the bright lights of Blackpool. Never to be seen again.

It was late autumn, the final night of the season. During the evening, the 14-year-old was spotted in a bar at the seaside resort’s North Pier. Someone bought her a vodka and Coke. She left with a young friend. They headed for a dark, waste-strewn passageway lined on each side by the rear entrances to several takeaway food premises.

This was “Paki Alley”, where chips and alcohol were in plentiful supply for children smart enough to know that one good turn deserved another. Arcades and kebab shops were a cheap escape from teenage boredom but on that particular night, November 1, 2003, a crime took place which meant that Charlene never came home.

A decade on and the unsolved murder has barely registered with the mainstream public. By contrast, Britain’s far-right parties have taken such an interest in the Downes case that banners demanding “Justice for Charlene” were raised on football terraces by sections of hardcore fans.

Their focus was triggered by a 2007 criminal trial at which it was alleged that the child was killed by a Jordanian kebab-shop owner who later disposed of her body with the help of his Iranian business partner. No remains were discovered.

Lacking concrete proof of murder, the prosecution was built on hearsay evidence from an unreliable witness and on a police officer’s transcription of low-quality recordings from bugs placed in the flat and car of one of the suspects. Its accuracy was repeatedly challenged by the defence.

On the eve of a scheduled 2008 retrial, after the first hearing led to a hung jury, the case collapsed. Both defendants were acquitted. The far-right’s conspiracy theory — dark-skinned men getting away with the rape and murder of a white girl — gained strength in 2011 when it emerged that an unpublished police report identified more than 60 girls who were groomed for sex by Asian workers at a cluster of takeaways.

Today, Charlene’s disappearance will be marked by a memorial service in the town, organised by the British National Party. Tomorrow, its supporters will stage a demonstration against “Muslim grooming gangs”. Leading the tributes will be her parents, Robert and Karen Downes. They are cherished icons of the nationalist movement. But they sit on a hollow throne.

The truth, hidden until now, is that so many men of all creeds and colours were suspected of sexual offences against Charlene that when she first went missing the police did not know which way to turn. One of the trails led directly inside the Downes family home. Confidential witness statements, social services records and internal police reports reveal that the child protection authorities first became concerned about Charlene’s home environment in 1989, the year she was born.

Then, the family were living in the West Midlands. Police and social services launched a joint investigation because a convicted rapist, jailed three times for buggery and indecent assaults on two young girls, was a regular visitor to the house and was allowed unsupervised access to a child.

Mr Downes, now 52, was “strongly advised” by social services not to allow the man inside his home but the visits were suspected to have continued. A witness told the authorities she saw the rapist “fondling [a child] in the house and that the parents were present”. They deny that any such incident happened.

In 1998, when Charlene was 9, she and another girl alleged that they were being sexually abused by a man “trusted by Mr and Mrs Downes to take them to school”. He was charged with rape but the case collapsed when the other girl failed to give evidence.

Charlene’s parents told The Times that the man seemed trustworthy because “he had a girlfriend”. They rejected a police officer’s report that they “had some knowledge of the abuse but failed to act”.

The family moved to Blackpool in 1999 after Walsall social services threatened to prosecute the parents for wilful neglect and to have the children taken into care. In the North West, a succession of men were introduced to the family after meeting Mr Downes in local pubs. Some stayed overnight or even longer.

They included a man in his 50s who described Charlene, then 13, as his girlfriend, and a 40-year-old who later admitted to police that he paid her to carry out a sex act. Three days after Charlene vanished, a 34-year-old man, staying with the Downes family while on bail, was jailed for crimes that included indecent assaults on three young girls. He admitted indecently touching the missing child.

An account of life inside the Downes home came from an environmental health officer, visiting one morning on council business, who walked into a downstairs room to find Charlene, then 12, lying on a bed in a “skimpy” nightgown. Lying alongside her was a man in his 60s. The girl jumped up and “started to scoop a number of pound coins off the bed”. The man, “shaken and trembling”, began “pulling his trouser zip up and fastening his belt”.

In a witness statement, the council employee described his shock at “the situation I had stumbled into”. He said Charlene was quick to tell him that “it’s OK — he’s my uncle”. Mr Downes then entered the room, apparently unconcerned, and explained that the man was “a family friend”. The incident was reported to social services but “it was decided not to pursue the matter further due to lack of evidence, lack of co-operation from the family and no complaint from Charlene”.

Her parents described it as a misunderstanding. Mrs Downes blamed the council worker for being too “nosey”. They said that the man on the bed with Charlene was “a lovely, nice old man” who had merely been adjusting his trousers. Mr Downes said he did not know, at the time, that any of the men he brought home had a sexual interest in children.

The couple did not comment on a hospital doctor’s report from June 2000, when Charlene was 11, warning of suspected sexual abuse, nor on the 13 visits she made to an NHS walk-in centre over a 12-month period in 2002-03, when she regularly sought help for sexual health problems.

Her mother insisted this week that her husband always sought to protect their daughter. She described the documents seen by this newspaper as “widely exaggerated and untrue”.

This is the mother of a child who apparently made regular visits, aged 11, to a Salvation Army soup kitchen and was seen dancing for men outside a pub, aged 12. Her parents explained that she enjoyed going “to church” and often danced to “music that she liked”. It was against this background that Charlene began swapping sexual favours, during the final months of her life, with Asian and Arab takeaway workers.

The Times understands that, three months before she vanished, she was one of two girls driven by Asian men from Blackpool to a lay-by in Blackburn. There, at midnight, she walked down an alley with one of the men, returning an hour later. Back in Blackpool, she was handed an envelope. Her friend asked what was inside and was told it was “what I got for what I did in Blackburn”.

Another Asian man is known to have taken her to Manchester in an old BMW less than a week before she disappeared. Neither incident was connected to the two men who stood trial over her murder.

It can also be revealed that a week before she went missing, a white man with the “motive and opportunity to murder Charlene” gave her £40. He met her again on her final night. A police report described him as a “compulsive, perverted paedophile” living in “a squalid flat knee-deep in pornographic material of all types including those featuring young children”.

Lancashire Constabulary today announces a new investigation, pledging “an open mind” about the murder. Its inquiry will not be short of suspects. Some are white; some are not.

Evidence shows that Charlene Downes was failed throughout her life. Until now, she has also been failed in death. The reports suggest that she was let down by her parents, by care professionals, by dozens of sex abusers, by her killers and by a police force that mismanaged a murder inquiry.

Today, the BNP distorts her story to sow seeds of divisive malevolence. Too little cared for, too little mourned. She deserves better."
 
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thegirlscout

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'In the lock up they found Bernadette’s rucksack.

Ms Wilding said: “The contents were examined, and they tell their own tale.

There were sanitary towels, a book for her overnight stay, spare clothes, headphones, make-up, a watch, a facemask and a notebook.

A note written by Bernadette was found in the notebook.

Ms Wilding said it read: “Told my mum about dad and the abuse. She called me a liar and threatened to kill me if I told police.”

The note continued: “What kind of parent wouldn’t believe their daughter. Its fine, I’m going to pretend it is all OK until I leave home, then I will block them out of my life.”

“If I was brave enough I probably would have already left or killed myself.”

Ms Wilding said: “It is a sad post script of the last thoughts of Bernadette Walker.”'

That letter got me choked up.
I’m not sure if there is an afterlife or something similar but if there is, I just want Bernadette to know I hear her, we all hear her, we all believe her and she is strong and beautiful and so, so brave.
 
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carriebooboo

Chatty Member
'In the lock up they found Bernadette’s rucksack.

Ms Wilding said: “The contents were examined, and they tell their own tale.

There were sanitary towels, a book for her overnight stay, spare clothes, headphones, make-up, a watch, a facemask and a notebook.

A note written by Bernadette was found in the notebook.

Ms Wilding said it read: “Told my mum about dad and the abuse. She called me a liar and threatened to kill me if I told police.”

The note continued: “What kind of parent wouldn’t believe their daughter. Its fine, I’m going to pretend it is all OK until I leave home, then I will block them out of my life.”

“If I was brave enough I probably would have already left or killed myself.”

Ms Wilding said: “It is a sad post script of the last thoughts of Bernadette Walker.”'

 
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MrsJones83

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The trial is being held in special circumstances, with counsel removing their wigs and gowns due to the defendants' ages.

Personally I don’t think there should have been special circumstances, then maybe the seriousness of it would have hit home.
 
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Eureka

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I wasn’t alluding to anything. And just because I commented doesn’t mean I have to share anything. It’s a very sensitive subject for the family which is why I won’t share anything publicly. Rest assured Amanda is fine
Maybe respect the privacy of the family and say nothing then? What do you expect when you dangle information like that. Amanda is home, that’s the most important thing.
 
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MissTeddy

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From the second i heard about this case I knew it would be him, but all the media seemed to have missed it. No one breaks into a home and only kills one person, and certainly not the man. That poor little baby, I hope she doesnt remember any of this if she was infact in the room.
The media know, that’s why he got so much coverage. They ALWAYS know, they were just giving him enough rope to hang himself. Bastard.
 
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TheOpposite

Active member
I struggle to believe that Wayne Couzens is a first time offender so keeping him alive is imperative. He might be responsible for unsolved assaults and murder.
 
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Kmacg

Well-known member
Covering up for him probably.☹
I tell you what, if my partner killed my child, Id be done for murdering him. No amount of love for a man/woman would ever over ride my love for a child. Fuck, if he ever murdered anyone I would be first to grass on him!!
 
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I’m curious to hear from someone who knows about the psychology of people like him about him now being ‘depressed’ (the daily mails word not mine) because surely someone as psychopathic as him wouldnt be feeling ‘depressed’/not eating because he feels guilty, so why isn’t he eating? Is it because he selfishly can’t go out and satisfy his urges anymore so that’s making him feel bad or is he just going to try and kill himself to get out of going to prison for the rest of his life? I read a line in the article that someone said ‘the enormity of his crimes is now catching up to him’ but surely someone as sickening as him doesn’t feel guilt? So what is it that he’s thinking about?
Contrary to logical expectation, not all murders are entirely psychopathic. However, the depression aspect is likely to come from several aspects...

Firstly, there are phases to the build up before an offence. So, there is the initial urge or fantasy, followed by a reinforcement of those urges via pornography, then a planning phase which overlaps this. Not many people get to this point, often porn is enough. However, some do.

Secondly, sexual offenders who go on to murder often start with minor offences. Indecent exposure or burglary with a sexual element. Whereas violent crimes or animal abuse are more common starter crimes for psychopaths.

He is likely to have experienced a high whilst planning and committing this crime but that will have been short lived. Think of it like a high from gambling, the excitement when you place the bet, the possibility of winning, followed by the low when you don't win.

With the small amount of info we (the public) have, I'm not convinced he's entirely psychopathic, although he will have traits.

The depression comes from a combination of things. He's lost his family, he has ruined his life, he's lost his freedom. He may feel guilty but that guilt is unlikely to be victim based. It's all about him and how he feels. That's where the psychopathic elements to his personality come in to play.

My opinion is that he will have committed crimes similar to those known about - indecent exposure etc. There may also be a history of abusive behaviour toward sex workers but I very much doubt there are other murders.

It's a really good job he has been stopped now though. Very similar to the guy called Pawal who murdered Libby in Hull (sorry, I can't remember surnames).

I'll caveat all of that by saying that without access to his medical records, I'm generalising based on his offence compared to similar offenders
 
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Lulu Goss

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Wasn’t sure which thread to post this in but has anyone else seen this story today? I was reluctant to post a link to be honest because of the way it’s being reported on in the media - this little girl is a child who has been raped, not someone who needs the title of “youngest mum”.

 
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Sariassong

Well-known member
I saw a study that also mentioned that the pandemic has also led to more knife crime as children spent a lot of time out of school and therefore could easily be groomed into gangs. It’s a scary world.
I've thinking about this loads in relation to when I was 13-14 (back in the dark ages of '87-88) and why there weren't more kids stabbing eachother. My school was rough as hell, there was a lot going on in a lot of our lives and a lot of rage and hormones flying around.
I think it may have something to do with the relentless nature of social media and chat apps nowadays. Kids are in touch 24/7, winding eachother up, getting eachother hyped up and finding grievances. There's no cool down time to get a sense of perspective. They're just completely immersed in their own world and this combined with the intensity of teenage hormones is a toxic mix.
Hope that makes sense!
 
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Tots

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The trial is being held in special circumstances, with counsel removing their wigs and gowns due to the defendants' ages.

Personally I don’t think there should have been special circumstances, then maybe the seriousness of it would have hit home.
Couldn’t agree more! They should be in handcuffs and be flanked by burly police officers too....if they’re old enough to murder one of their peers then they’re old enough to face the consequences!
 
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Damita

Well-known member
Just reading how the piece of excrement in human form Wayne Couzens is barely eating and is being watched like a hawk because authorities fear he's trying to take the easy way out and kill himself.

It's known he's already caused himself injury when he banged his head a few times in custody.

I hope he is not able to succeed and is made to feel the true horror of what he has done every day for a long time, the ultimate punishment.
 
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LilPinkie

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Reading the live court updates of the Olly Stephens murder trial and it gets me so angry. First a juror last week has had to step down for the week due to self-isolating and the younger defendant made a plea to wait until they were back next week, which the judge denied. Now the pathologist is giving evidence and the elder one has been excused from court because of it. Why? Upset to look at what they did to Olly’s body? If they want to play the big man and mess around with knives then they’re big enough to see what horrors they cause. Pisses me off that they are pandered to. They lost their rights to plead their age when they took away a lad’s life. 🤬
 
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AllSeeingEye123

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The case in Greece with Caroline Crouch sounds so bad. Why wasn't her husband killed? If you kill one wouldn't you kill the other to stop them talking about what happened? It doesn't make sense.

How long had they been together? I ask as it is very creepy a guy in his mid 30s married a teenager and got her pregnant.
 
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Treesy19

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I remember walking fairly long distances as a teen - and in my early 20s - purely to save on taxi fare. I’d think nothing of it. Especially walking in a pair, you’d spend the time chatting and perhaps sobering up. My designated fare I’d spend on either more alcohol during the evening or a visit to a chip shop!
 
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Officedoor123

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I've thinking about this loads in relation to when I was 13-14 (back in the dark ages of '87-88) and why there weren't more kids stabbing eachother. My school was rough as hell, there was a lot going on in a lot of our lives and a lot of rage and hormones flying around.
I think it may have something to do with the relentless nature of social media and chat apps nowadays. Kids are in touch 24/7, winding eachother up, getting eachother hyped up and finding grievances. There's no cool down time to get a sense of perspective. They're just completely immersed in their own world and this combined with the intensity of teenage hormones is a toxic mix.
Hope that makes sense!
I absolutely agree with this. I was 13-14 in 1978-79 and (unless your enemy phoned your landline, spoke to your mum and asked to speak to you LOL) all arguments were left at 3pm and possibly picked up again at 9am the next day, but there was that breathing space where you just couldnt contact each other (unless you went out after school), and there was no way of letting dozens of your friends know that X had pissed you off so let's all get them back at school tomorrow. Phone calls were expensive and you didnt just sit by the front door chatting on the landline to your friends all night. It gave everyone breathing space and a bit of perspective i think.
 
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Penguin86

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I didn't sleep last night after reading all about the Logan stuff
I've had 3 stillbirths (twins at 18 years old and a single when I was in my 20s) so hearing about people like this really fucking angers and upsets. How can these evil people have kids and I can't
 
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