Dirty Joan
Well-known member
Stephanie Davis has been absolutely nauseating throughout all this. That one can’t even be trusted to change her knickers on the daily never mind change any laws.
- Notice
Kofi Annan
Well-known member
Just a few things that I have observed and thought about (I do work within a domestic abuse support role so it's not bobbins).
1. The instruction of CF and LB to have no contact. That's something that is not done lightly. There must have been a real indication of risk, witness manipulation, further violence. There were no children. That gave me an indication of a high level of risk.
2. The risk assessment used to indicate DA covers a huge range of questions. The score and any professional judgements are used to determine a level of risk. This will have been done with the victim, highly likely straight after the incident. Even if the victim doesn't wish to answer, the attending officer can make comments such as weapons used, abuse getting worse, abuse against pets etc... Also a DA report will mention any previous callouts, markers on the address and things like mental health concerns.
3. The CPS are taking a tiny amount of cases to Court atm. The CJ system is buckling due to staffing issues and under funding. To pursue such a high profile case suggests to me that they had tight evidence and was sure of a conviction.
4. To blame the agencies involved in supporting a victim of DA is insulting. So much work is done and has been done of a type of crime that 20 years ago wouldn't have even been recognised. Especially male victims. The reporting statistics are shocking, support is seriously lacking and when I read what I have over the past few days it's no wonder that male victims don't feel supported. The paperwork, safeguarding, meetings with professionals, supervision and hours that go into each case that identifies a victim of DA is terrifying, but necessary.
Sorry if I've rambled, I have loads more to say, however just wanted to end on this.
It is a real shame that CF maybe felt like ending her life (until the inquest, I will stick with maybe) was the only way out. My thoughts are with her family and friends. That said, it still concerns me that there is a blind following of #BeKind and that CF is now the true victim. I find that offensive to anyone who has ever been a victim and is a survivor of DA.
1. The instruction of CF and LB to have no contact. That's something that is not done lightly. There must have been a real indication of risk, witness manipulation, further violence. There were no children. That gave me an indication of a high level of risk.
2. The risk assessment used to indicate DA covers a huge range of questions. The score and any professional judgements are used to determine a level of risk. This will have been done with the victim, highly likely straight after the incident. Even if the victim doesn't wish to answer, the attending officer can make comments such as weapons used, abuse getting worse, abuse against pets etc... Also a DA report will mention any previous callouts, markers on the address and things like mental health concerns.
3. The CPS are taking a tiny amount of cases to Court atm. The CJ system is buckling due to staffing issues and under funding. To pursue such a high profile case suggests to me that they had tight evidence and was sure of a conviction.
4. To blame the agencies involved in supporting a victim of DA is insulting. So much work is done and has been done of a type of crime that 20 years ago wouldn't have even been recognised. Especially male victims. The reporting statistics are shocking, support is seriously lacking and when I read what I have over the past few days it's no wonder that male victims don't feel supported. The paperwork, safeguarding, meetings with professionals, supervision and hours that go into each case that identifies a victim of DA is terrifying, but necessary.
Sorry if I've rambled, I have loads more to say, however just wanted to end on this.
It is a real shame that CF maybe felt like ending her life (until the inquest, I will stick with maybe) was the only way out. My thoughts are with her family and friends. That said, it still concerns me that there is a blind following of #BeKind and that CF is now the true victim. I find that offensive to anyone who has ever been a victim and is a survivor of DA.
Domestic abuse is not just physical. It has a pattern and cycles. It starts off slowly and escalates, it usually starts with things like jealousy, paranoia, being controlling and verbal abuse. These things then escalate to physical abuse. The physical abuse can be an attack on the person…or it can be breaking furniture and throwing things. ‘I didn’t mean to throw that at his head’ would not be a defence. In law even the reasonable knowledge that you are causing that person fear by your violent behaviour is enough for an assault charge. The 999 call of him telling operator he is in fear of his life is the strong evidence there!
The continued violence at the police station and the insults heard on the 999 calls are evidence of a violent assault, both verbal and physical, from start to finish. It is also common for female abusers to attack men whilst sleeping so the element of surprise makes up for the size difference, if you think about it, that is very controlling and shows intent.
Personally I see a pattern of abuse in her life through the years. Explosive arguments with ex’s, arguments with the neighbour that went on record. Quickly getting engaged but suspecting various boyfriends of cheating and then dropping them, or fighting with them the next week. Accusing her ex of phoning an ambulance out of spite. She even got her ‘camp’ to say she did imply she would kill herself ‘but she didn’t mean it’. They said how he felt ashamed for ‘wasting police time’. Seems like smearing and gaslighting the other person and getting others to do the dirty work for you. All hallmarks of a very controlling person. She was also happy to use the press to smear her ex and in effect 'bully' him.
As others have said on this thread, they suspect Borderline p.d. to me it seems to fit with what we know, even her last instagram statement and suicide. BPD people generally have chaotic relationships, they self medicate and moods can flip throughout the day. She apparently convinced ambulance services she was fine when her ex called them then again in the week up to her death and then tragically again when her friend left her the morning of her death. So maybe the quick suicide was caused by a flip in her mood when being left alone.
She said she had been having a breakdown for years, it is more likely she had a mood disorder or personality disorder, as this would be through your adult life. I know I can’t diagnose but I suspect.
The need to absolve her by certain people has baffled me. She was a very troubled person and I can understand her family will be devastated but…she was responsible for getting herself help. There is so much focus on her being ‘bullied’ by the media but domestic abuse is an awful, long term form of bullying which causes the victims extreme mental stress too. There was not one apology to her victim in that statement.
Kerry Katona’s ex was charged with assaulting her, why is there this difference in attitude? He had mental health issues too, he had become mentally unwell after taking drugs but no-one has said he was ‘vulnerable’ or should have been let off anything. Maybe because people have a perception of Caroline Flack from seeing her on TV as nice, attractive or whatever. The Sun didn’t help by running headlines about the height difference between her and her boyfriend, I even wonder if her people had encouraged that story. I don’t doubt she had mental health problems but so do many people who kill wives, children and husbands. It is not an excuse for your choices unless someone is actually psychotic and has lost touch with all reality. It needs to be prosecuted because something needs to stop the cycle of abuse before it gets worse.
Sorry for the lengthy rant but as others have said here, I am strangely obsessed now with the topsy-turvy attitude to Flack where she is virtually given a sainthood and her actions and patterns of behaviour ignored. It is really worrying in terms of awareness of domestic abuse.
The continued violence at the police station and the insults heard on the 999 calls are evidence of a violent assault, both verbal and physical, from start to finish. It is also common for female abusers to attack men whilst sleeping so the element of surprise makes up for the size difference, if you think about it, that is very controlling and shows intent.
Personally I see a pattern of abuse in her life through the years. Explosive arguments with ex’s, arguments with the neighbour that went on record. Quickly getting engaged but suspecting various boyfriends of cheating and then dropping them, or fighting with them the next week. Accusing her ex of phoning an ambulance out of spite. She even got her ‘camp’ to say she did imply she would kill herself ‘but she didn’t mean it’. They said how he felt ashamed for ‘wasting police time’. Seems like smearing and gaslighting the other person and getting others to do the dirty work for you. All hallmarks of a very controlling person. She was also happy to use the press to smear her ex and in effect 'bully' him.
As others have said on this thread, they suspect Borderline p.d. to me it seems to fit with what we know, even her last instagram statement and suicide. BPD people generally have chaotic relationships, they self medicate and moods can flip throughout the day. She apparently convinced ambulance services she was fine when her ex called them then again in the week up to her death and then tragically again when her friend left her the morning of her death. So maybe the quick suicide was caused by a flip in her mood when being left alone.
She said she had been having a breakdown for years, it is more likely she had a mood disorder or personality disorder, as this would be through your adult life. I know I can’t diagnose but I suspect.
The need to absolve her by certain people has baffled me. She was a very troubled person and I can understand her family will be devastated but…she was responsible for getting herself help. There is so much focus on her being ‘bullied’ by the media but domestic abuse is an awful, long term form of bullying which causes the victims extreme mental stress too. There was not one apology to her victim in that statement.
Kerry Katona’s ex was charged with assaulting her, why is there this difference in attitude? He had mental health issues too, he had become mentally unwell after taking drugs but no-one has said he was ‘vulnerable’ or should have been let off anything. Maybe because people have a perception of Caroline Flack from seeing her on TV as nice, attractive or whatever. The Sun didn’t help by running headlines about the height difference between her and her boyfriend, I even wonder if her people had encouraged that story. I don’t doubt she had mental health problems but so do many people who kill wives, children and husbands. It is not an excuse for your choices unless someone is actually psychotic and has lost touch with all reality. It needs to be prosecuted because something needs to stop the cycle of abuse before it gets worse.
Sorry for the lengthy rant but as others have said here, I am strangely obsessed now with the topsy-turvy attitude to Flack where she is virtually given a sainthood and her actions and patterns of behaviour ignored. It is really worrying in terms of awareness of domestic abuse.
Lottie1991
New member
I’m amazed at some of the replies on here
you think sectioning needs looking at? You think you can section everyone who tries to kill themselves? I’m a nurse, we have people in Every night who have tried to harm or kill them selves.. some of these people try to attempt suicide on a regular bases. As long as someone has mental capacity, we stitch them back up and send them on their way again.
it’s impossible to section everyone who harms themselves or attempts suicide. There is NOT enough staff or bed spaces. Not only that but it’s illegal. You can’t just section someone. You can try and kill yourself whilst having full capacity. There is a reason why so many legislations are in place surrounding the MCA and sectioning. Where does it begin? Does my patient last night who self neglected need to be sectioned? Does the alcoholic who drinks 3 bottles of wine each night need to be sectioned because technically speaking he’s killing them self just in a very slow way.
you can’t just magic up thousands of extra staff, hospitals and bed spaces to look after all these newly sectioned patients. I mean this kindly but for those who have never worked in nursing etc you really do not understand the half of it.
The majority of patients who self harm/attempt suicide DO NOT need sectioning. You’ve got human rights to thank for that.
you think sectioning needs looking at? You think you can section everyone who tries to kill themselves? I’m a nurse, we have people in Every night who have tried to harm or kill them selves.. some of these people try to attempt suicide on a regular bases. As long as someone has mental capacity, we stitch them back up and send them on their way again.
it’s impossible to section everyone who harms themselves or attempts suicide. There is NOT enough staff or bed spaces. Not only that but it’s illegal. You can’t just section someone. You can try and kill yourself whilst having full capacity. There is a reason why so many legislations are in place surrounding the MCA and sectioning. Where does it begin? Does my patient last night who self neglected need to be sectioned? Does the alcoholic who drinks 3 bottles of wine each night need to be sectioned because technically speaking he’s killing them self just in a very slow way.
you can’t just magic up thousands of extra staff, hospitals and bed spaces to look after all these newly sectioned patients. I mean this kindly but for those who have never worked in nursing etc you really do not understand the half of it.
The majority of patients who self harm/attempt suicide DO NOT need sectioning. You’ve got human rights to thank for that.
Dirty Joan
Well-known member
Can someone link to the picture of this “scratch”. I’m also somewhat unsettled at the the obvious minimising of what was clearly a very distressing incident that night. Lewis rang operators pleading for help, that she hit him with a lamp as he slept and that she was going to kill him and apparently Caroline can be heard being verbally abusive in the background. She flipped a table, cut her wrists and had to be physically restrained. She called Lewis and asshole and vile and was said to be “manipulative” towards him. Once cautioned she flipped out again and threatened to kill herself.
This was all told to the court at her hearing in December. Why are people trying to minimise and downplay something that was clearly very viscous and dangerous? It doesn’t sound like an accident to me.
With this considered itv would have been mad not to replace her for this series. It’s just a pity that she didn’t see this through and defend herself in court. We also only saw one picture and one pool of blood on the bed. We don’t know what the rest of the house looked like. And despite Caroline insisting it was her blood, we actually don’t know that for certain, a trial would have determined that as it all would have been tested.
It’s very sad and tragic that she felt this was her only way out but I don’t understand why people are now absolving her from clearly breaking the law and being violent, the consequences of which she clearly couldn’t cope with.
A violent outburst like hers shouldn’t be excused, minimised or simplified because she is no longer here. It sounds like an extremely nasty situation that had every right to end up in front of a judge.
Caroline was clearly an unwell girl with a lot of mental health struggles. I’m sad for her friends and her family but can we please stop with the “it was only a scratch” and “it was just a domestic”, because we are bringing everything anyone who has ever cared about domestic violence and campaigns back years.
Her death can’t be simplified or summed up by a hashtag. Nor can future suicides be prevented by simply being kind. To say that is to simplify the complexity of mental health struggles and make a complex decision seem extremely one dimensional.
This was all told to the court at her hearing in December. Why are people trying to minimise and downplay something that was clearly very viscous and dangerous? It doesn’t sound like an accident to me.
With this considered itv would have been mad not to replace her for this series. It’s just a pity that she didn’t see this through and defend herself in court. We also only saw one picture and one pool of blood on the bed. We don’t know what the rest of the house looked like. And despite Caroline insisting it was her blood, we actually don’t know that for certain, a trial would have determined that as it all would have been tested.
It’s very sad and tragic that she felt this was her only way out but I don’t understand why people are now absolving her from clearly breaking the law and being violent, the consequences of which she clearly couldn’t cope with.
A violent outburst like hers shouldn’t be excused, minimised or simplified because she is no longer here. It sounds like an extremely nasty situation that had every right to end up in front of a judge.
Caroline was clearly an unwell girl with a lot of mental health struggles. I’m sad for her friends and her family but can we please stop with the “it was only a scratch” and “it was just a domestic”, because we are bringing everything anyone who has ever cared about domestic violence and campaigns back years.
Her death can’t be simplified or summed up by a hashtag. Nor can future suicides be prevented by simply being kind. To say that is to simplify the complexity of mental health struggles and make a complex decision seem extremely one dimensional.
Dirty Joan
Well-known member
The whole thing is fucking sickening. One self serving idiot after the next crying about safe guarding celebrities as if they’re some kind of protected species. Why don’t they safe guard themselves and keep their private lives and intimate moments off social media. Stephanie will be back featuring in the very rags she’s slamming within a month on an all expenses paid trip to Dubai with paid paps in tow. The biggest joke is that she even considers herself a celebrity to begin with.
Most of these “celebrities” would be claiming welfare if it wasn’t for the rags they’re now shaming. They have literally nothing else to offer only strings of failed relationships and scandals, they Court the press with these things when the going is good and then cry about intrusion when the attention isn’t favourable.
The lot of them need to have a long hard look at Themselves and how they’ve contributed to the standards of the industry they’re now shaming. This will all be forgotten about in a few weeks and they’ll all be back media whoring about something else.
You don’t see actual celebrities at this shit.
Most of these “celebrities” would be claiming welfare if it wasn’t for the rags they’re now shaming. They have literally nothing else to offer only strings of failed relationships and scandals, they Court the press with these things when the going is good and then cry about intrusion when the attention isn’t favourable.
The lot of them need to have a long hard look at Themselves and how they’ve contributed to the standards of the industry they’re now shaming. This will all be forgotten about in a few weeks and they’ll all be back media whoring about something else.
You don’t see actual celebrities at this shit.
Moley1
Chatty Member
I have been reading this thread with interest and having worked for the CPS I can say with some authority that a lot of what people have said about the charging decision is utter nonsense - especially about the CPS wanting a “show trial” The CPS take domestic violence very seriously as they should. They base their charging decisions on the likelihood of a successful prosecution and whether it is in the public interest to do so. It has nothing to do with a person’s gender or celebrity. What if they had of dropped the case and Ms Flack had gone on to do something more serious? Much has been made of the bail conditions, which are perfectly normal in a case like this. It is also the case the the victims sometimes withdraw their statement. Given that many DV victims do so under pressure or emotional pressure from their partners, all of the evidence is concidered before a decision to prosecute is taken. The police and the CPS were clearly of the opinion that there was a case to answer. Sadly now we shall never know the outcome and her guilt or otherwise will continue to be the subject of gossip on social media. Ms Flack and her boyfriend had the perfect opportunity to put their side of the story forward if it differed from that of the prosecution. If the evidence matched their version of events they had every chance of a favourable outcome.
DaisyDeluxe
VIP Member
I'm all for putting out information, sources of help for those who are suicidal, depressed etc and encouraging people to talk more. But I'd also like to see more support for those experiencing domestic violence. This case has highlighted some awful and outdated views. Now, I totally appreciate Caroline had not been tried in a court of law and was not convicted of anything. However, the comments I have seen since the incident happened have shocked me. "He probably deserved it" "It was just a one off" "its just a domestic, nothing to do with the police". This is things that even actual friends of mine have said - and I'm astonished. I thought these views were very old school - not of current 30 something professional women. Front page news is now criticising the decision to prosecute - are we trying to set back views on DV by about 30 years here? I'm incredibly sorry Caroline has died, her suicide is shocking. But there's more than just her as a victim here, that shouldn't be swept under the carpet.
Dirty Joan
Well-known member
I disagree with posts saying she wasn’t an abuser. Hitting someone over the head while they’re at their most vulnerable and defenceless is abusive. Threatening suicide to your partner abusive. (we also know she did this in a previous relationship, and was apparently abusive to him too) Threatening suicide to the police unless they drop the charges is abusive. Yelling, screaming and calling someone extreme names is abusive. Slitting your wrists when you’re not getting your way is abusive.
she was a very troubled woman but let’s call a spade a spade here. Her behaviour has all the hallmarks of someone who is abusive and manipulative.
she was a very troubled woman but let’s call a spade a spade here. Her behaviour has all the hallmarks of someone who is abusive and manipulative.
OnlyHereForTheLolz
VIP Member
I find the whole thing heart breaking but you can’t take the suppressed IG post from her as gospel.
I don’t think we will ever know the exact truth of what happened. I also don’t think it was an accident but that she instantly regretted what she did and that he regretted phoning the police.
But if she was off her head on drinks/drugs she really left him no choice.
What I don’t understand is people wanting to paint her as angel now. Clearly there were some deep seated issues.
The situation is complicated because she assaulted her OH but she was also clearly troubled.
It just doesn’t sit well with me that everybody wants to say it was an “accident” I still think this post is really relevant and sums my feelings up nicely
I don’t think we will ever know the exact truth of what happened. I also don’t think it was an accident but that she instantly regretted what she did and that he regretted phoning the police.
But if she was off her head on drinks/drugs she really left him no choice.
What I don’t understand is people wanting to paint her as angel now. Clearly there were some deep seated issues.
The situation is complicated because she assaulted her OH but she was also clearly troubled.
It just doesn’t sit well with me that everybody wants to say it was an “accident” I still think this post is really relevant and sums my feelings up nicely
Attachments
Blurp
VIP Member
Presumably the way the rest of us with mental health problems continue to work at our jobs.
Youtubegossip
VIP Member
Keep private lives private... what Andrew like you did when you accused her of abusing you on your PUBLIC INSTAGRAM. And when you posted the confidential NdA on your PUBLIC INSTAGRAM... seriously fuck off. You breached her privacy yourself
Spammingyourhighway
Well-known member
Why are we so fixated on age? She looked over ten years younger, so why does it matter? Just a way to degrade someone in a bitchy ageist manner
Littlemisadoughnut
VIP Member
Getting increasingly annoyed with the "be kind" tag with Caroline's name. If she really did hit her boyfriend with a lamp, she shouldnt really be the poster girl for "being kind"
MrsGarcia
Chatty Member
Kerry K, Piers M... etc etc etc
And Dawn O' P has posted endless photos, video clips and even a Facebook interaction. Perhaps they should all just stop and think for a moment instead of competing to be the most upset, the most bestest friend, the most upstanding, the most morally correct and grief stricken. I get heartfelt, I get grief but I don't get trying to break other people down for doing the same things you are.
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Coinkeedinkee
Member
Just chipping in. Most of what I would have wanted to say has already been posted over the past few days, but here's an extra little thought for you.
That "bekind" hashtag is so shit. Can we please remember the tv shows that Caroline Flack herself was associated with? I don't know enough about Love Island to comment, although I am aware two former contestants killed themselves, but what about X Factor? Is that not largely a show where the deluded, vulnerable and outright mentally ill are paraded before the public to mock and laugh at? Caroline Flack hosted both the sister show Xtra Factor and the main X Factor show. Did she consider the feelings of the contestants that were left humiliated upon their appearances on the show, or did she laugh into the camera at them? Did anyone create a hashtag with calls to be kind, even after one contestant killed herself last year? Or was that contestant's questionable audition showed again and again in full, even after she was dead? It's so hypocritical, it makes me sick. It's like you ONLY matter as a person if you're famous and then anything you did wrong gets glossed over when you die and you get elevated to angel status.
That "bekind" hashtag is so shit. Can we please remember the tv shows that Caroline Flack herself was associated with? I don't know enough about Love Island to comment, although I am aware two former contestants killed themselves, but what about X Factor? Is that not largely a show where the deluded, vulnerable and outright mentally ill are paraded before the public to mock and laugh at? Caroline Flack hosted both the sister show Xtra Factor and the main X Factor show. Did she consider the feelings of the contestants that were left humiliated upon their appearances on the show, or did she laugh into the camera at them? Did anyone create a hashtag with calls to be kind, even after one contestant killed herself last year? Or was that contestant's questionable audition showed again and again in full, even after she was dead? It's so hypocritical, it makes me sick. It's like you ONLY matter as a person if you're famous and then anything you did wrong gets glossed over when you die and you get elevated to angel status.
JellyWobbles
VIP Member
I am sick of the hypocritical be kind campaign. The insufferable Stephanie Davis BS.
NO ONE know what alluded towards Caroline taking her own life, the only thing that is 100% certain is that mental health issues were to play here, someone mentally sound does not commit suicide.
there was a woman who written an article today, stating it was the media’s and CPS fault. That Caroline did not have mental health problems.
I didn’t realise that everyone was present, is a coroner and pathologist or a bloody mind reader.
the one thing from all of this that is desperately sad, is those that are paying ‘respect’ by using a tragedy for their own agenda. Twats, the lot of em.
Dirty Joan
Well-known member
best post on this whole thread.