Ioan Gruffudd & Alice Evans #229 The day that Ioan realised she was totally and utterly bonkers

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I agree that (in my opinion) she should be viewed as a wounded, manipulated child. Her actions, however, are abhorrent. I think it’s understandable that observers are horrified by her behaviour. That doesn’t mean said observers don’t understand her vulnerability and the monumental damage Alice has done.
Incidentally I don’t think there would have been a good time for Ioan to leave. Alice would still have weaponised Ella and encouraged things like the credit card theft and online abuse. He was damned if he stayed and damned if he left. I do wonder though, if he believed she would agree to shared custody purely based on her laziness. That might have been the one thing that surprised him.
the worst time to leave (TM) is believed to be between 6 and 12 years old, because the older you are the more you are used to a certain stability (though tbh this case should have been easier, given that Ioan was working so much abroad anyway), so very small kids are not badly affected (this of course can differ, 4 year olds can also be old enough to feel a stability and have enough memories etc) but you are not old/mature enough to understand the dynamics of a seperation, and even if you then years later become theoretically old enough for that (and this has been partially the case with Ella, otherwise she wouldnt have came up with the lame insult of "mom should have left you" last year) your impression you gathered from that young age will remain rather than a more mature reflection taking place.

So in a sense he did chose the worst possible moment, also with Covid and stuff in the mix, but there is never a best moment when leaving an abusive relationship.

edit: a piece on that matter https://www.healthline.com/health/parenting/effects-of-divorce-on-children
 
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It’s unfair to those of us who are merely making observations to paint us as unsympathetic people who say mean things about children. Many of us here on this thread have similar life experiences to Ella, myself included. I have always wanted one thing for those children. A happy life with love, guidance, healthy boundaries, adventures, fun, and understanding. MOO
Agree. Don't shoot the messenger. We didn't abuse Ella despite what AFE thinks, she did. She will always deflect. That's her MO. I could give a hundred examples of that but 2 will do. A good mother would explain to kids that they can't go through airport security hand in hand as there are rules. Instead AFE lets them do it and then does a public post about how evil TSA staff are to 2 little girls. And this lovely one from the court doc. AFE is trying to paint IG as a bad dad who wounded his kid in some way because he wouldn't pick her up from the home of his abuser and wanted Gloria to do it.

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I’d love to see a brown paper lunch sack with two eye holes cut out on her head with “bleep” written at the top, perhaps using sequins.
I'd like to see her in handcuffs being brought into police custody. That might take the stupid trout pout of her face.
 
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Agree. Don't shoot the messenger. We didn't abuse Ella despite what AFE thinks, she did. She will always deflect. That's her MO. I could give a hundred examples of that but 2 will do. A good mother would explain to kids that they can't go through airport security hand in hand as there are rules. Instead AFE lets them do it and then does a public post about how evil TSA staff are to 2 little girls. And this lovely one from the court doc. AFE is trying to paint IG as a bad dad who wounded his kid in some way because he wouldn't pick her up from the home of his abuser and wanted Gloria to do it.

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I'd like to see her in handcuffs being brought into police custody. That might take the stupid trout pout of her face.
The coercive control surely would have been picked up by Dr Dupee who would have read those court transcripts?
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the worst time to leave (TM) is believed to be between 6 and 12 years old, because the older you are the more you are used to a certain stability (though tbh this case should have been easier, given that Ioan was working so much abroad anyway), so very small kids are not badly affected (this of course can differ, 4 year olds can also be old enough to feel a stability and have enough memories etc) but you are not old/mature enough to understand the dynamics of a seperation, and even if you then years later become theoretically old enough for that (and this has been partially the case with Ella, otherwise she wouldnt have came up with the lame insult of "mom should have left you" last year) your impression you gathered from that young age will remain rather than a more mature reflection taking place.

So in a sense he did chose the worst possible moment, also with Covid and stuff in the mix, but there is never a best moment when leaving an abusive relationship.

edit: a piece on that matter https://www.healthline.com/health/parenting/effects-of-divorce-on-children
I think it would have been worse for those girls if he'd stayed, it's clear he was subjected to verbal abuse in front of those girls and being present all the time via covid he'd have been a basket case by then. The atmosphere would have been toxic for the girls by the point he fled with the clothes on his back Moo!
 
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I don't understand how the Alice stans can claim that Ioan and Bianca "walk the dog too much," "swan around the globe," etc. and are yet simultaneously online 24/7 "trolling Alice." They're out doing things. And they're rarely photographed with phones in their hands, so they're not mobile trolls.
It really and truly shows what small minded, ignorant idiots they are.
 
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I’ve been thinking about what’s going on with Ella, and the disapprobation she still receives on these threads sometimes.
I teach psychology to pre-U students - one of my many hats. I won’t go into axons and dendrons; but I think it’s important to bear in mind what happens to the brain as a child reaches adolescence. In short, it’s Armageddon. Grey matter decreases; white matter increases. The brain refolds itself, trimming away extraneous matter. Neurons and neuronal activity increases. Emotions run riot. A teenager’s social state reflects directly on her mental state, and vice versa. Lifelong tendencies to depression and addiction are established during the teen years. Ella has been going through years of hell. We only see the carnage of Casa Evans from a distance. Ella is in the middle of it.
Alice referred to the girls as her ‘life’s work’. IG, for the sake of his own sanity - and I don’t think it would be pushing the envelope through the sorting-office wall to say ‘existence’ - left Ella at the worst possible time in her development, because Alice left him no choice in so doing. She was on the cusp of young adulthood, where, as mentioned above, the brain goes through sizeable and unalterable changes. Physical development, menstruation - with its huge challenges, not the least of which means a young woman realises her capacity for fertility and has to guard against it, plus all the predatory behaviour from the males of the species it brings - and, as a Harvard study suggests, cycling through every single human emotion once every twenty four hours… plus the nightmare of a manipulative and damaging mother-figure who punishes where she should praise, and praises where she should punish.
Ella should have been allowed to follow the normal maturation process, i.e. begin to separate herself from the mother figure and explore her own identity. (Usually, this involves a lot of slammed doors, ‘I hate you’, and competition.) Instead, she was forced to believe she could ‘change’ and counsel her own father. She had to witness her mother’s incessant drunkenness, alarming behaviour, and experience foulmouthed abuse. Ella endured endless tales of her father’s apparent betrayal, to the extent she became brainwashed against him. Then, at a time when she should have been indulging in customary adolescent risk-taking and social interaction, she was pulled from school and wider society for an entire year and isolated with an abusive, substance-addicted woman. God knows how many hours Alice worked on Ella. And God only knows what Alice claimed, given her unfamiliarity with the truth. I wouldn’t be surprised if Evans claimed IG perpetrated the most vile and horrific crimes in an effort to get Ella onside.
What seems to be forgotten is just how young Ella is. Her shocking behaviour during the sleepover is not that of an adult, but a much younger child. Older adolescents may have indulged in a bit of arson and/or criminal damage. Ella threw around groceries and ran away. The account of her behaviour by the psychiatrist is more reminiscent of a nine-year-old - and the judge saw it.
Because she has been simultaneously infantilised and parentified, she has been forced into the position whereby she feels responsible for Alice, yet has absolutely no compulsion to mature. Her various crimes - hacking into his IG and posting infantile messages, stealing $400 for Christmas presents - are the actions of a much younger person. Her height is irrelevant. She’s a damaged, disturbed kid who has been kept in a near-hostage situation. She has had no chance to develop at her own speed, and her enforced isolation ensures she’s infantilised.
She’s not beyond hope, though. The therapist with whom she is working will be making sizeable changes. By appealing to her immaturity, they will hopefully be able to instill in her the foundations for responsible, mature adulthood. But it is incredibly difficult to undo that much manipulation, estrangement and faux-adoration. Pushing her down the model route, so that Alice can be a Kardashian-style momager, is a catastrophic mistake. While Ella is undoubtedly a beautiful girl, she has neither the maturity nor resilience to cope with the dark, cutthroat, shallow and insincere world of modelling.
I think IG knows all this, which is why he hasn’t given up hope. It may take years for Ella to grow up and wake up to what has been done to her, but he will always be ready to welcome her home. She is a desperately wounded soul who needs understanding and compassion, no matter how vilely she has behaved. It is best not to judge her by adult standards, but see her as the wounded, manipulated child that she is.

(Apologies for the essay. Returning to lurking - depression. Love to all.)
Lots of love to you @Autisteuse, and I love your wise and compassionate words. I’ve always believed that both these young souls are victims of their Abuser, and if it wasn’t for her evil manipulations that have destroyed their peace, and ability to grow up in safety, they would be looking forward to adulthood much better prepared. I hope that therapy does indeed help them unravel all the Abuser’s harm, because despite her protestations, these are unhappy, damaged children and it’s all on the Abuser. It is their father who loves and cares for them, who is doing his best to help them heal, and great cost to himself, and I’m not talking financial cost here either. I imagine that Ioan would spend every last penny to look after his beautiful daughters, and wouldn’t count the cost.

I hope and pray my love that it isn’t too long before your depression eases and the sun comes out for you ❤🙏❤
 
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Just had a look on her Pinterest. What a chilling insight into the mind of a deranged narcissist with borderline personality disorder. I refer especially to this monstrosity.
 

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The coercive control surely would have been picked up by Dr Dupee who would have read those court transcripts?
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I think it would have been worse for those girls if he'd stayed, it's clear he was subjected to verbal abuse in front of those girls and being present all the time via covid he'd have been a basket case by then. The atmosphere would have been toxic for the girls by the point he fled with the clothes on his back Moo!
I don’t think he’d still be here if he’d stayed much longer in that house with the Abuser. He had to save his own life before he could help his children. I believe he was at absolute breaking point when he left. He stayed as long as he did to try and protect his children, otherwise he’d have left several years before. He tried, god how he tried to save that marriage, but the Abuser didn’t care, didn’t believe him when he said he didn’t love her anymore, didn’t look at herself and how she contributed to the breakdown of the relationship. She just wanted to lie around in bed all day drinking, popping pills, let someone else look after he daughters, and argue with randoms on sm. oh, and I nearly forgot, spend all his money on complete tat. Humiliating Ioan/Daddy, and making him pay for everything was what she liked to do, and has taught her daughters that is totally acceptable behaviour.
bleep!
MOO
 
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I’m probably harsher on Ella’s behaviour because I can’t look at it objectively. Elsie is also under the same influences and pressures at an even younger age and doesn’t act in the same way. She’s the scapegoated/bullied child. She’s now taken Ioan’s role in that family dynamic while Ella can be seen as a mini Alice. Narc mother’s/adults start from somewhere.
 
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I agree with what you said and I've said before that 14 is a difficult age anyway. However I have never judged her by adult standards, just that of a 14 yo.



I would like to think that but I doubt it giving she is living with a narc mom who is VERY anti-therapy. Everything the therapist says will be disparaged when Ella gets grilled about it. I said years ago that the kids needed to be removed from AFE and they weren't so now the problems will be much harder to deal with as they have to return to Casa Crazy after every session and AFE has had years to work on them.



Yes!
Has Alice ever done therapy herself? One she wasn't forced to do? Or one she hasn't made up where the therapist questioned why Ioan would leave a perfect woman?

I was reading on the differences between Borderline PD and Narcissistic PD (relating to another celebrity) and one of the differences stated was that narcs are hard both to diagnoze and to treat because they do not admit that they have a problem. It comes with the territory.
 
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Sorry I have to say it..

It’s never a bad time to stop normalising abuse in your child’s home. .

There’s literally never a bad time to model how to leave a toxic relationship.

You are not helping your child in anyway by staying in an abusive marriage. You are teaching them it’s normal and that they don’t deserve any better now or in the future.

Never - ever - use your children as an excuse to remain in a bad relationship, it’s at least as harmful to them as it is to you.

Show them that leaving is a choice, so as adults they have the same choice available to them. Notice how Alice tries to take that choice away by constantly going on about wedding vows and how marriage is an unbreakable commitment? That’s one of the tactics that abusers use to keep their partners trapped with them.

Ioan showed the girls they have a choice and that choice will always be there for them. They have a safe place to go to when they are ready. Thank God.
 
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I think we have to keep in mind that the girls may have begun to treat Ioan this way anyway, despite the divorce. He said himself that Alice belittled him in front of them and treated him with utter disrespect and encouraged the girls to do the same, from BIRTH.

All their lives they will have seen their dad undermined and treated as though he was stupid and a nuisance. They witnessed terrible arguments where their mother berated him, swore at him and them, and physically assaulted him. Before Ioan had even mentioned leaving, Ella was absolutely brainwashed to see her dad as the problem and her mum as the poor victim; we saw that in those heartbreaking transcripts of the abuse, with Ella desperately offering to be a therapist and fix her dad so her mum would be happy again. And what we know is the tip of the iceberg I'm sure.

We saw how she mocked him in private messages, and more publicly on Instagram. She ignored every boundary he had. We know the names she called him and the physical and financial abuse. We know that she thought so little of him that she suggested he live in the garage. And this is only the behaviour Ioan reported. We know that she will have been mocking and disparaging him to the girls the entire time he was working away. Even if Ioan had stayed forever, the girls would possibly have despised him as weak and all the things their mother told them he was just like they do now. All the problems of the household would have been blamed on him anyway. They would never have had financial security, as Alice spends everything that comes in the door and refuses to earn anything herself, and IG's mental health would have spiralled further, making work for him very hard too. With Alice as their main caregiver, I can't see an outcome that is any different, whether IG had stayed married to her or not.
 
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I’m probably harsher on Ella’s behaviour because I can’t look at it objectively. Elsie is also under the same influences and pressures at an even younger age and doesn’t act in the same way. She’s the scapegoated/bullied child. She’s now taken Ioan’s role in that family dynamic while Ella can be seen as a mini Alice. Narc mother’s/adults start from somewhere.
exactly, this!
I understand all the circumstances the kids are living in. But because I 1. Do not see myself in Ella 2. Do not like children just because threy are children and have no problem saying I dont like difficult children I can see how it all can lead to the same path as Alice. To not like and to blame are not the same thing. Equally, to understand and to excuse are not the same thing (but thats another matter).
Alice started like Ella. We dont know what happened to her in childhood, but like you say - narcs all start somewhere. Psychologists are saying narcs are not born, they are made. If Alice was made, now we are watching her trying to make her oldest into version of herself. To say Alice was born evil and twisted (an opinion expressed a few times here by the way) would be saying this about an innocent child that she once was. So are we saying its ok to show disapproval towards an innocent child when they are now became and adult but not ok to do the same with regards to a teenager that is turning down a dangerous path in front of our very eyes?!
As somebody who was on a receiving end of a raging entitled selfish and cruel golden child - my husband’s oldest - I also have an example of how it can turn out. Spoiler: he grew up into a worse narc than his mother
I repeat again: I do feel for her and I understand her circumstances but I dont have to like her and I dont. Especially not after the incident at Yo’s house where she pushed away a sweet playful dog who was happy to see her, with her feet.
Im not trying to talk anybody out of feeling compassion and understanding, Im just expressing how I feel: I dont like her. And I dont believe she will turn out well. I will be very happy to learn I am wrong.
MOO
 
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exactly, this!
I understand all the circumstances the kids are living in. But because I 1. Do not see myself in Ella 2. Do not like children just because threy are children and have no problem saying I dont like difficult children I can see how it all can lead to the same path as Alice. To not like and to blame are not the same thing. Equally, to understand and to excuse are not the same thing (but thats another matter).
Alice started like Ella. We dont know what happened to her in childhood, but like you say - narcs all start somewhere. Psychologists are saying narcs are not born, they are made. If Alice was made, now we are watching her trying to make her oldest into version of herself. To say Alice was born evil and twisted (an opinion expressed a few times here by the way) would be saying this about an innocent child that she once was. So are we saying its ok to show disapproval towards an innocent child when they are now became and adult but not ok to do the same with regards to a teenager that is turning down a dangerous path in front of our very eyes?!
As somebody who was on a receiving end of a raging entitled selfish and cruel golden child - my husband’s oldest - I also have an example of how it can turn out. Spoiler: he grew up into a worse narc than his mother
I repeat again: I do feel for her and I understand her circumstances but I dont have to like her and I dont. Especially not after the incident at Yo’s house where she pushed away a sweet playful dog who was happy to see her, with her feet.
Im not trying to talk anybody out of feeling compassion and understanding, Im just expressing how I feel: I dont like her. And I dont believe she will turn out well. I will be very happy to learn I am wrong.
MOO
Well said. I held back a bit as I know what a sensitive subject this is. To put it bluntly Ella looks like she might become Alice 2.0. We don't know what Alice was doing at 14 but my guess is she was the GC and got her way all the time. She was very likely a school bully too. She pretends she was bullied at school but every accusations she makes turns out to be projection.

People have told me to put myself in Ella's shoes and I have. I said some time ago that I would want to live with IG and BW in her shoes. I would apologise for the tit I pulled and not do anything abusive further. Not talking about typical teenage stuff, just no more abuse. IG is actually the FUN parent (Alice caps lol). He would take me on vacations and day trips. AFE just pretends to be the fun parent but Casa Evans seems as much fun as a funeral. The whole WE LAUGHED AND LAUGHED UNTIL WE WERE ON THE FLOOR is try hard bullshit. I would use the counselling to deal with having a narc mother and to help withstand all the guilt trips and manipulation.

Sure, Ella is being groomed - I know that and if IG was dead (AFE acts like he is) then I would see her as nothing but a victim. However, he's not so that's the parent I would favour and want to live with. Abuse can't be normalised and that includes abuse from 14 yo too though they have more mitigating factors. I just heard of a 14 yo (a girl) who threw a chair at a teacher in school and physically hurt her. Now the kid has a dysfunctional background obviously, but they were taking about expelling her, but didn't. (I would have). There's consequences even at 14. That's the way society works.
 
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Congratulations to @BessieNessie for the thread title, as nominated by @scantysandwich!

I had to edit it for length. The full title is "That was the day that Ioan realised without a shadow of a doubt that she was totally and utterly bonkers". It's in reference to this bag which Alice created for her now-defunct Etsy shop, which we discussed at the end of the last thread.

Recap
  • Hell froze over, and the Daily Mail actually ran a story which was unfavourable to Alice, which stated that Ioan had overpaid her spousal support by £278,000
  • However in true Daily Mail fashion, they then ran another story which made Ioan out to have a current net worth of $2.8 million, and contrasted that with Alice being almost penniless, thereby making Ioan look heartless
  • Alice posted a new set of mirror selfies on her Instagram
  • Please vote in the poll above so we can get an idea of what process we should follow for thread title nominations
Please add anything to the recap which I may have missed out!

Please stick to the main players, and obscure any identifying info from screenshots from those who are not Alice (or her latest sock), and those who do not have more than 10k social media followers.

Previous thread: https://tattle.life/threads/ioan-gr...tv-or-movies-but-its-hard-finding-jobs.43825/
what poll?
 
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Well said. I held back a bit as I know what a sensitive subject this is. To put it bluntly Ella looks like she might become Alice 2.0. We don't know what Alice was doing at 14 but my guess is she was the GC and got her way all the time. She was very likely a school bully too. She pretends she was bullied at school but every accusations she makes turns out to be projection.

People have told me to put myself in Ella's shoes and I have. I said some time ago that I would want to live with IG and BW in her shoes. I would apologise for the tit I pulled and not do anything abusive further. Not talking about typical teenage stuff, just no more abuse. IG is actually the FUN parent (Alice caps lol). He would take me on vacations and day trips. AFE just pretends to be the fun parent but Casa Evans seems as much fun as a funeral. The whole WE LAUGHED AND LAUGHED UNTIL WE WERE ON THE FLOOR is try hard bullshit. I would use the counselling to deal with having a narc mother and to help withstand all the guilt trips and manipulation.

Sure, Ella is being groomed - I know that and if IG was dead (AFE acts like he is) then I would see her as nothing but a victim. However, he's not so that's the parent I would favour and want to live with. Abuse can't be normalised and that includes abuse from 14 yo too though they have more mitigating factors. I just heard of a 14 yo (a girl) who threw a chair at a teacher in school and physically hurt her. Now the kid has a dysfunctional background obviously, but they were taking about expelling her, but didn't. (I would have). There's consequences even at 14. That's the way society works.
I agree fully with you but re: fun parent. I think in this case fun parent means the parent that doesnt put boundaries and doesnt limit my screen time etc etc. Ioan is the way more active parent, he would take them to trips and whatnot, but he may (that's at least my impression) also force them on trips just to get them off their screens

The problem the current generation has is that there is an (by pseudo activists encouraged) push to switch around roles. In the past parents were dictacting activities or deciding if they grant their kids wishes. Nowadays it's seen as abuse to do certain things if the kids don't want to (yknow like meeting your dads partner after 2 years), or to not grant them wishes. That's why Team Alice went batshit over him not bending backwards to go with Ella to Universal on the day she wanted. Ioan is 100 % right to do that, but this only works if both parents do that.

I reckon this is one reason why for Elsie a) the PA didnt work for a long time and b) her behavior isnt even near as terrible. She seems a more playful/outdoor-y child, but it doesn't mean that this will stay this way.

Or take the groceries: I bet the kids can buy whatever they want with Alice, with Ioan probably not (at least that would be my idea if I see their groceries spendings, and Alice has implied something like this before)

What I'm trying to say with this: I can actually imagine that Ella - even if she wouldn't have irrational hate against her father, and even if Bianca wouldn't exist (and the existence of another party does play a role for how comfortable a child feels at first) - would prefer to stay with her mother. Simply because she is a pretty awful parent, and teenagers like to take advantage out of awful parents. On top of that Alice is also guilt tripping to the max, you certainly would fear that she would kill herself, and she has implied this more than once even.

With that I am not excusing her behavior though. No matter if Alice ordered her to behave this way at some point you have to call her bluff, because if you don't you actually will end up hurting someone else you deep down may still love. And tbh I find it shocking that she hasnt, the way Alice treated her in court by abandoning her was utterly disgusting (and showed that since "be a mother" nothing has changed in her treatment of her kids). It shows how far the brainwashing has gone though if that (presumably) doesnt bother her but her father breathing does. As others have said the brainwashing likely started already during their marriage: if her IG feed is anything to go by (and Ioan said the same) she was always disrespectful to him in front of the kids. That stays with you
 
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