This should be posted in the wiki if you agree.@SueDoyou
I made you a list of our views and concerns. I hope this helps you understand the general views we have.
these spaces tend to be very active for two reasons: 1) many of us are progressive and cannot say these things in progressive spaces without risking our employment and/or friendships 2) when you get “peaked” you become horrified by how far gender ideology has gone and what it has allowed in.
Because it’s so controversial, people from many walks of life come here or to spaces like it, which means that you’re going to get conflicting opinions. There are radical feminist opponents to gender ideology (), conservative opponents and people who fall somewhere in between.
I think issue 1) means many people that comment on this online have an account devoted to just this, but to an outsider, it looks like all we care and think about is this and are thus irrational. I promise you that many of us are perfectly rational
Here are many of the prevailing views on this issue from a radical feminist POV:
Sex = biological sex. It is immutable in humans
- Your sex defines you as a man or a woman
- Gender = social etiquettes taught to each human sex, varying slightly across the world but generally anything that could be defined as socially masculine or feminine
- Transsexual = someone who experiences long-term gender dysphoria and accordingly medically and surgically transitions to present as the opposite sex, but whose biological sex does not change. This is a rare mental illness.
- Some of us think it is OK for transsexuals to transition, following support for other mental issues is explored first and after a long safeguarding process, once they are adults as children are not in a position of mental development to make a permanent decision like this. Those of us who believe there are “genuine transsexuals” recognise not transitioning before adulthood makes transitioning harder for them, but that does not come above child safeguarding. Some think transitioning is not OK regardless of circumstance and there are no genuine transsexuals
- Transgender = someone who may not necessarily experience dysphoria but identifies as the opposite gender. May or may not transition beyond wearing gendered clothes. Is trans on the basis of gender rather than sex. We are critical of this because gender is a social construct
- Nonbinary falls into the same group as transgender
- Women are oppressed on the basis of their sex in a way men are not (e.g. higher levels of rape, FGM) and our comparative physical weakness is used against us by men, who are physically more powerful than us and have oppressed us for hundreds if not thousands of years
- The male sex is more violent than the female sex, sexually and otherwise, and towards women than vice versa. These statistics are reflected in how a higher proportion of transsexual women are incarcerated for sexual and violent crimes than biological women
- Through trying to insist that there is no difference between a transgender woman and a “cis” or biological woman, and refusing to distinguish on the basis of sex rather than gender, the gender ideology movement is effectively writing over this history, and is obscuring valuable data we need to measure and work against violence against and oppression of women. It also incorrectly insinuates trans women and not trans men experience sex-based oppression in the same way biological women do, which isn’t really true because they are not female.
- This obstructs feminist movements in achieving parity between the sexes. for example workplaces collecting data on women’s access to male-dominated fields will gather skewed data if they do not distinguish via sex but gender instead - eg, trans women are socialised as men growing up and this receive encouragement to go into STEM that biological women do not. If a company does not distinguish between biological women and trans women in its data collection, and many trans women work in STEM roles, it may end up believing it has improved access for biological women when it hasn’t. There are other more nefarious examples of this problem
- Men are generally physically stronger than women, which means that if sports are not separated by sex, women will win infrequently. It also is not safe for women and men to compete in many sports owing to how much stronger men are than women - especially the strongest man vs the weakest woman in a contest
- Self-ID is a portion of gender ideology that dictates that any person can declare that they are trans at any point, and be recorded and treated accordingly
- “Gender”-based spaces are problematic where they occur with self-ID, as it means that men can just declare they are trans women and not be required to prove it in any way as to ask them this would be questioning their gender identity which is transphobic. It would become significantly difficult to prove that a man is in a women’s space with bad intentions if there is no legal reason why he (“she”) should not be in that space
- Puberty blockers are not reversible and are frequently followed by hormone treatments like estrogen/testosterone supplements. We are concerned by their prescription to children and young people as CYP are exposed endlessly to the notion that these treatments *are* reversible. They are not accessing these treatments with a proper understanding of their effects, and the silencing of our concerns exacerbates this. Many pro-trans orgs take the view the treatments are reversible and are too quick to recommend children go on them, eg Mermaids and the late Tavistock gender clinic
- We take issue with the notion that sexual orientation is gender- rather than sex-based, as many lesbians, gay men, and straight people are certain their SO is sex-based and biologically, this makes sense. it is wrong to suggest they are bigoted for their sexual orientation, especially given the history of lesbian and gay men being forced to have sex with the opposite sex and discriminated against for having sex with the same sex
- We object to the notion that these views, often called “gender critical”, are unacceptable, as it means silencing the concerns we raise
- We are concerned by orgs like Stonewall pushing gender ideology - it expects compliance from all organisations it partners with and risks the jobs of people with gender critical views. In higher education, government, healthcare and policy, it enables the problems we identify to continue
This is by no means exhaustive. I hope you can see that many of us are not crazy transphobes. We are just normal people like you
- Status
New to Tattle Life? Click "Order Thread by Most Liked Posts" button below to get an idea of what the site is about:
The difference between women worrying about fetishistic men in women's spaces, and straight men worrying about gay men in men's spaces, is that there is a difference between men and women. It's also a fairly homophobic suggestion to be honest, and a comparison that doesn't stand up to logical scrutiny since gay men and straight men aren't claiming to be anything other than their actual sex.
Gay men don't commit sex offences at a higher rate than straight men. Meanwhile around 50% of transgender women in prison are convicted of sex offences (figures from MOJ), significantly higher than the general male population. The number of women committing sex offences is comparatively negligible. Which leads us back to your "not all men" circular argument, I guess.
Gay men don't commit sex offences at a higher rate than straight men. Meanwhile around 50% of transgender women in prison are convicted of sex offences (figures from MOJ), significantly higher than the general male population. The number of women committing sex offences is comparatively negligible. Which leads us back to your "not all men" circular argument, I guess.
Does this thread have a wiki? If so then absolutely, well said @greenvelvet
Its fantastic, so thank you again. For taking the time.thank you! I noticed a typo in it just as the editing time expired but I enjoyed it
I have seen transgender women in our spaces and never been made feel uncomfortable, possibly a lucky one so. I see transgender people on the street and my thought is to think of how brave they are above anything else, because they haven't done anything perverted for me to judge them.
These men though? Yeah if I saw a man touching himself in a public restroom I'd for sure call the police and if thats happened to anyone in here thats bleeping awful. I'm so sorry. If this is happening everyday I would love to (not in a sarky way here) but I would love to see the stories of it happening everyday or week here in the UK or Ireland.
I'd love to read the wiki if there was one!
As a fifty year old (well this Tuesday), Traliban amuses me immenselySorry but you’ve gotta admit, the TRAliban is funny af
. Airport announcing my 50th (well technically 51st) year is just me saying I'm glad I have more years behind me than ahead of me.
Found Dylan 2.0 
Many women have mentioned it. I am actually surprised you have never read it. Mainstream media are pro transwomen so obviously they don’t talk a lot about it I guess. I hope it does not happen everyday! I don’t think it happens everyday. Because transwomen are a minority.Its fantastic, so thank you again. For taking the time.
I have seen transgender women in our spaces and never been made feel uncomfortable, possibly a lucky one so. I see transgender people on the street and my thought is to think of how brave they are above anything else, because they haven't done anything perverted for me to judge them.
These men though? Yeah if I saw a man touching himself in a public restroom I'd for sure call the police and if thats happened to anyone in here thats bleeping awful. I'm so sorry. If this is happening everyday I would love to (not in a sarky way here) but I would love to see the stories of it happening everyday or week here in the UK or Ireland.
I'd love to read the wiki if there was one!
You have mentioned “genuine transwomen” . So for you there are real one and fake one. But they all say they are trans.
Anyway, the issue is not only about toilets actually. You are gender critical according to some of your statements. For TRAs you are a TERF. We are not allowed to ask questions and to object.
bleeping hell , its a right old bruiser
The best thing about this thread is that I learn so many meanings
. To all of you: I am sorry for my bad English. Thank you for making the effort to understand me.
This guy would be shocked to know how many women don’t wear make up. Like, at all. That is not what being a woman is. Jesus Christ how many times does it have to be said. Dude, wear the make up if it boosts your confidence, go you!! But you’re not a woman just FYI.Found Dylan 2.0
A guy flashed me and my friends in a busy department store years ago. It was very clichéd - he had a long coat on and nothing underneath. Creepy as hell. I feel lucky I’m in my 40s and that’s really been my only experience. Lots of women on here have seen worse. Some men are so fuckin depraved. And dangerous. It’s no wonder we are suspicious of men claiming to be trans who want to use our toilets and changing rooms. These creeps are over the moon about the trans movement - they can make women feel uncomfortable (and worse) in even more spaces than before. And one look at Twitter tells you that no one cares about how unsafe or vulnerable women feel in these situations. We are just called terfs as if we don’t matter anyway. As if we’re not normal, hardworking, decent human beings. But hurt the feelings of a trans woman? How bleeping dare you. Misogyny 101.Its fantastic, so thank you again. For taking the time.
I have seen transgender women in our spaces and never been made feel uncomfortable, possibly a lucky one so. I see transgender people on the street and my thought is to think of how brave they are above anything else, because they haven't done anything perverted for me to judge them.
These men though? Yeah if I saw a man touching himself in a public restroom I'd for sure call the police and if thats happened to anyone in here thats bleeping awful. I'm so sorry. If this is happening everyday I would love to (not in a sarky way here) but I would love to see the stories of it happening everyday or week here in the UK or Ireland.
I'd love to read the wiki if there was one!
Last edited:
This list is brilliant. I was nodding furiously as I read it. It sums up the feminist point of view brilliantly. Thank you@SueDoyou
I made you a list of our views and concerns. I hope this helps you understand the general views we have.
these spaces tend to be very active for two reasons: 1) many of us are progressive and cannot say these things in progressive spaces without risking our employment and/or friendships 2) when you get “peaked” you become horrified by how far gender ideology has gone and what it has allowed in.
Because it’s so controversial, people from many walks of life come here or to spaces like it, which means that you’re going to get conflicting opinions. There are radical feminist opponents to gender ideology (
I think issue 1) means many people that comment on this online have an account devoted to just this, but to an outsider, it looks like all we care and think about is this and are thus irrational. I promise you that many of us are perfectly rational
Here are many of the prevailing views on this issue from a radical feminist POV:
Sex = biological sex. It is immutable in humans
- Your sex defines you as a man or a woman
- Gender = social etiquettes taught to each human sex, varying slightly across the world but generally anything that could be defined as socially masculine or feminine
- Transsexual = someone who experiences long-term gender dysphoria and accordingly medically and surgically transitions to present as the opposite sex, but whose biological sex does not change. This is a rare mental illness.
- Some of us think it is OK for transsexuals to transition, following support for other mental issues is explored first and after a long safeguarding process, once they are adults as children are not in a position of mental development to make a permanent decision like this. Those of us who believe there are “genuine transsexuals” recognise not transitioning before adulthood makes transitioning harder for them, but that does not come above child safeguarding. Some think transitioning is not OK regardless of circumstance and there are no genuine transsexuals
- Transgender = someone who may not necessarily experience dysphoria but identifies as the opposite gender. May or may not transition beyond wearing gendered clothes. Is trans on the basis of gender rather than sex. We are critical of this because gender is a social construct
- Nonbinary falls into the same group as transgender
- Women are oppressed on the basis of their sex in a way men are not (e.g. higher levels of rape, FGM) and our comparative physical weakness is used against us by men, who are physically more powerful than us and have oppressed us for hundreds if not thousands of years
- The male sex is more violent than the female sex, sexually and otherwise, and towards women than vice versa. These statistics are reflected in how a higher proportion of transsexual women are incarcerated for sexual and violent crimes than biological women
- Through trying to insist that there is no difference between a transgender woman and a “cis” or biological woman, and refusing to distinguish on the basis of sex rather than gender, the gender ideology movement is effectively writing over this history, and is obscuring valuable data we need to measure and work against violence against and oppression of women. It also incorrectly insinuates trans women and not trans men experience sex-based oppression in the same way biological women do, which isn’t really true because they are not female.
- This obstructs feminist movements in achieving parity between the sexes. for example workplaces collecting data on women’s access to male-dominated fields will gather skewed data if they do not distinguish via sex but gender instead - eg, trans women are socialised as men growing up and this receive encouragement to go into STEM that biological women do not. If a company does not distinguish between biological women and trans women in its data collection, and many trans women work in STEM roles, it may end up believing it has improved access for biological women when it hasn’t. There are other more nefarious examples of this problem
- Men are generally physically stronger than women, which means that if sports are not separated by sex, women will win infrequently. It also is not safe for women and men to compete in many sports owing to how much stronger men are than women - especially the strongest man vs the weakest woman in a contest
- Self-ID is a portion of gender ideology that dictates that any person can declare that they are trans at any point, and be recorded and treated accordingly
- “Gender”-based spaces are problematic where they occur with self-ID, as it means that men can just declare they are trans women and not be required to prove it in any way as to ask them this would be questioning their gender identity which is transphobic. It would become significantly difficult to prove that a man is in a women’s space with bad intentions if there is no legal reason why he (“she”) should not be in that space
- Puberty blockers are not reversible and are frequently followed by hormone treatments like estrogen/testosterone supplements. We are concerned by their prescription to children and young people as CYP are exposed endlessly to the notion that these treatments *are* reversible. They are not accessing these treatments with a proper understanding of their effects, and the silencing of our concerns exacerbates this. Many pro-trans orgs take the view the treatments are reversible and are too quick to recommend children go on them, eg Mermaids and the late Tavistock gender clinic
- We take issue with the notion that sexual orientation is gender- rather than sex-based, as many lesbians, gay men, and straight people are certain their SO is sex-based and biologically, this makes sense. it is wrong to suggest they are bigoted for their sexual orientation, especially given the history of lesbian and gay men being forced to have sex with the opposite sex and discriminated against for having sex with the same sex
- We object to the notion that these views, often called “gender critical”, are unacceptable, as it means silencing the concerns we raise
- We are concerned by orgs like Stonewall pushing gender ideology - it expects compliance from all organisations it partners with and risks the jobs of people with gender critical views. In higher education, government, healthcare and policy, it enables the problems we identify to continue
This is by no means exhaustive. I hope you can see that many of us are not crazy transphobes. We are just normal people like you
That's Londoner English!
The best thing about this thread is that I learn so many meanings
To all of you: I am sorry for my bad English. Thank you for making the effort to understand me.
And try to complain about it, and it'll be you that's castigated against.......
If you went to the Police, you'd be ignored- or else given a " corrective thought-chat/dressing-down".....
It's no wonder so many are furious about all this.....
Interesting that you use “brave”, because that’s such a cliched word applied to trans identified males it’s become a joke. You must have heard people say “stunning and brave” sarcastically. That.
The thing is I actually understand why you think that. At one point I would have said the same. What I wouldn’t have admitted to myself is exactly why I thought they were brave. I thought they were brave because:
They didn’t pass
They looked a bit silly at best, totally ridiculous at worst
They risked public ridicule / abuse
They must be really tormented, if walking around in public looking like THAT was the only solution
I've added this list to the Wiki, which for some reason isn't linked to the thread again.@SueDoyou
I made you a list of our views and concerns. I hope this helps you understand the general views we have.
these spaces tend to be very active for two reasons: 1) many of us are progressive and cannot say these things in progressive spaces without risking our employment and/or friendships 2) when you get “peaked” you become horrified by how far gender ideology has gone and what it has allowed in.
Because it’s so controversial, people from many walks of life come here or to spaces like it, which means that you’re going to get conflicting opinions. There are radical feminist opponents to gender ideology (
I think issue 1) means many people that comment on this online have an account devoted to just this, but to an outsider, it looks like all we care and think about is this and are thus irrational. I promise you that many of us are perfectly rational
Here are many of the prevailing views on this issue from a radical feminist POV:
Sex = biological sex. It is immutable in humans
- Your sex defines you as a man or a woman
- Gender = social etiquettes taught to each human sex, varying slightly across the world but generally anything that could be defined as socially masculine or feminine
- Transsexual = someone who experiences long-term gender dysphoria and accordingly medically and surgically transitions to present as the opposite sex, but whose biological sex does not change. This is a rare mental illness.
- Some of us think it is OK for transsexuals to transition, following support for other mental issues is explored first and after a long safeguarding process, once they are adults as children are not in a position of mental development to make a permanent decision like this. Those of us who believe there are “genuine transsexuals” recognise not transitioning before adulthood makes transitioning harder for them, but that does not come above child safeguarding. Some think transitioning is not OK regardless of circumstance and there are no genuine transsexuals
- Transgender = someone who may not necessarily experience dysphoria but identifies as the opposite gender. May or may not transition beyond wearing gendered clothes. Is trans on the basis of gender rather than sex. We are critical of this because gender is a social construct
- Nonbinary falls into the same group as transgender
- Women are oppressed on the basis of their sex in a way men are not (e.g. higher levels of rape, FGM) and our comparative physical weakness is used against us by men, who are physically more powerful than us and have oppressed us for hundreds if not thousands of years
- The male sex is more violent than the female sex, sexually and otherwise, and towards women than vice versa. These statistics are reflected in how a higher proportion of transsexual women are incarcerated for sexual and violent crimes than biological women
- Through trying to insist that there is no difference between a transgender woman and a “cis” or biological woman, and refusing to distinguish on the basis of sex rather than gender, the gender ideology movement is effectively writing over this history, and is obscuring valuable data we need to measure and work against violence against and oppression of women. It also incorrectly insinuates trans women and not trans men experience sex-based oppression in the same way biological women do, which isn’t really true because they are not female.
- This obstructs feminist movements in achieving parity between the sexes. for example workplaces collecting data on women’s access to male-dominated fields will gather skewed data if they do not distinguish via sex but gender instead - eg, trans women are socialised as men growing up and this receive encouragement to go into STEM that biological women do not. If a company does not distinguish between biological women and trans women in its data collection, and many trans women work in STEM roles, it may end up believing it has improved access for biological women when it hasn’t. There are other more nefarious examples of this problem
- Men are generally physically stronger than women, which means that if sports are not separated by sex, women will win infrequently. It also is not safe for women and men to compete in many sports owing to how much stronger men are than women - especially the strongest man vs the weakest woman in a contest
- Self-ID is a portion of gender ideology that dictates that any person can declare that they are trans at any point, and be recorded and treated accordingly
- “Gender”-based spaces are problematic where they occur with self-ID, as it means that men can just declare they are trans women and not be required to prove it in any way as to ask them this would be questioning their gender identity which is transphobic. It would become significantly difficult to prove that a man is in a women’s space with bad intentions if there is no legal reason why he (“she”) should not be in that space
- Puberty blockers are not reversible and are frequently followed by hormone treatments like estrogen/testosterone supplements. We are concerned by their prescription to children and young people as CYP are exposed endlessly to the notion that these treatments *are* reversible. They are not accessing these treatments with a proper understanding of their effects, and the silencing of our concerns exacerbates this. Many pro-trans orgs take the view the treatments are reversible and are too quick to recommend children go on them, eg Mermaids and the late Tavistock gender clinic
- We take issue with the notion that sexual orientation is gender- rather than sex-based, as many lesbians, gay men, and straight people are certain their SO is sex-based and biologically, this makes sense. it is wrong to suggest they are bigoted for their sexual orientation, especially given the history of lesbian and gay men being forced to have sex with the opposite sex and discriminated against for having sex with the same sex
- We object to the notion that these views, often called “gender critical”, are unacceptable, as it means silencing the concerns we raise
- We are concerned by orgs like Stonewall pushing gender ideology - it expects compliance from all organisations it partners with and risks the jobs of people with gender critical views. In higher education, government, healthcare and policy, it enables the problems we identify to continue
This is by no means exhaustive. I hope you can see that many of us are not crazy transphobes. We are just normal people like you
I've just added it.
There is, but for some reason it's no longer linked.I'd love to read the wiki if there was one!
I've already added it. I did it as soon as I read it, so you'll be able to edit in there.thank you
Same.
Most of us here are ex TRAs… I remember the first time I said that a woman was everyone who feels like it… and I remember when I peaked.
I don’t know what label I put on myself these days but I think I just find men a let down in practically every way. Even today, when great strides have been made in women’s rights, women are still pandering or forced to change their behaviour because of men. Whether it’s watching a fat Jackie Chan win a woman’s beauty pageant, taking a detour to avoid a bunch of men, trying to evade hands on a packed tube, being patronised and mansplained at, being perceived as meat, being killed - it’s an endless list. I see all the trans issues, the popularity of drag as being part of the same thing. We live in a misogynistic world, where women are pushed around, demeaned, and disregarded. A bunch of men who claim they are women want to push real women out of the way, they want to call the shots, be in charge, make the world revolve around them, trying to take over women’s place in society, laugh at women. It’s all part of the same thing. Men see women as inferior beings and of no regard, and if you do push back, you are labeled x or y. Used to be old bag or witch, now it’s Terf.
Golly so kind of you to call our discussions here farting in to the wind! What respect you have for women’s opinions!
You’ve done very little but criticise us and these threads since you started participating so forgive me for thinking you seem a bit disingenuous thanking @greenvelvet for her excellent list.
- Status