Gender Discussion #35

[witchofwestbyfleet]

That’s scary knowing how Anti feminist Korean men are.
I’ve noticed this feminist hate train is a worldwide thing for men all around the world, yeah libfems are annoying, mainstream and set women back but not all feminist have the same views or beliefs.

Their current president is a men's rights activist who got elected basically on that platform (partly as a result of backlash against the previous president who - at least publicly - advocated for women's rights.) It has a knock-on effect in other countries in the region too. The Chinese Government is currently encouraging a backlash against women's rights in order to increase the birth rate, and points to Korea as an example of what supposedly happens when women get "too many" rights. In Japan people play on anti-Korean sentiment and say "we don't want feminism, that's a Korean thing."

Now it seems to be used as a positive thing, but hasn't really been reclaimed by gay people per se, it seems to just mean anyone who doesn't quite live up to societal norms - regardless of sexual orientation. I just don't get it.

I've seen a fair amount of "GAY suggests everyone is white, 'cis', able-bodied, middle class etc. while QUEER is inclusive of everybody." That's just it: being gay is not "inclusive." Either you are same-sex attracted or you're not, it doesn't reflect on your skin colour, disability, or class

 

[The True Venus ♀]

The Chinese Government is currently encouraging a backlash against women's rights in order to increase the birth rate,

It really is handmaids tale out here

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

@SueDoyou

I made you a list of our views and concerns. I hope this helps you understand the general views we have.

Spoiler: Long post under cut

these spaces tend to be very active for two reasons: 1) many of us are progressive and cannot say these things in progressive spaces without risking our employment and/or friendships 2) when you get “peaked” you become horrified by how far gender ideology has gone and what it has allowed in.

Because it’s so controversial, people from many walks of life come here or to spaces like it, which means that you’re going to get conflicting opinions. There are radical feminist opponents to gender ideology (), conservative opponents and people who fall somewhere in between.

I think issue 1) means many people that comment on this online have an account devoted to just this, but to an outsider, it looks like all we care and think about is this and are thus irrational. I promise you that many of us are perfectly rational

Here are many of the prevailing views on this issue from a radical feminist POV:

Sex = biological sex. It is immutable in humans

1. Your sex defines you as a man or a woman
2. Gender = social etiquettes taught to each human sex, varying slightly across the world but generally anything that could be defined as socially masculine or feminine
3. Transsexual = someone who experiences long-term gender dysphoria and accordingly medically and surgically transitions to present as the opposite sex, but whose biological sex does not change. This is a rare mental illness.
4. Some of us think it is OK for transsexuals to transition, following support for other mental issues is explored first and after a long safeguarding process, once they are adults as children are not in a position of mental development to make a permanent decision like this. Those of us who believe there are “genuine transsexuals” recognise not transitioning before adulthood makes transitioning harder for them, but that does not come above child safeguarding. Some think transitioning is not OK regardless of circumstance and there are no genuine transsexuals

Can we amend this? Not sure if "genuine" is the best word here. Many trans people are genuine in the fact they do have gender dysphoria, they aren't doing it out of mal content etc etc, but I would argue that we do not treat body image based mental disorders with cosmetic surgery.

 

[eggsalafrancais]

I’m not gay so don’t claim to know much on the matter but I remember queer being a slur till recently and I’m only early 30s so would feel funny using it anyway on that basis. But it especially grosses me out when you get heterosexual couples claiming they’re “queer” because one or both is claiming to be non binary, pure nonsense and quite insulting to older gay and lesbian people who have gone through being called queer negatively.

 

[weeweegie]

I’m not gay so don’t claim to know much on the matter but I remember queer being a slur till recently and I’m only early 30s so would feel funny using it anyway on that basis. But it especially grosses me out when you get heterosexual couples claiming they’re “queer” because one or both is claiming to be non binary, pure nonsense and quite insulting to older gay and lesbian people who have gone through being called queer negatively.

I hate this too. It’s so stupid and insulting to gay people. It’s just straight people desperate for cool points. A straight guy with a bit of eyeliner on or a straight woman with bright blue hair - special and magical KwEer. It makes me cringe so badly.

 

[Dizzy]

Detest the term queer. I also remember it as a derogatory term and would never feel comfortable using it now.

 

[greenvelvet]

Can we amend this? Not sure if "genuine" is the best word here. Many trans people are genuine in the fact they do have gender dysphoria, they aren't doing it out of mal content etc etc, but I would argue that we do not treat body image based mental disorders with cosmetic surgery.

I’m happy for it to be reviewed/amended and to remove the word “genuine”. it needs a polish, esp now it’s on the wiki. there are a lot of things in it that I didn’t spot before the editing period in the post expired (I said “lesbian and gay men” - typo of the week lol), but I can go in and review the wiki eventually and am happy for anyone else to too. the stuff about “queer” probably deserves a mention in there.

Some people in this thread seem to be OK with transsexuals getting surgery if all other avenues have been explored over a long period of time, whilst others say what you just did, that ultimately we don’t treat body image disorders with surgery (a lot of us object to cosmetic surgery on these grounds generally) as it is unethical and reinforces the individual’s mental illness, so why should this be any different. Part of me thinks we should reference both views on the Wiki, but idk what everyone else thinks. Maybe we could have a poll on what peoples views are when we start a new thread?

 

[SueDoyou]

Wiki is here for those who mentioned it: https://tattle.life/wiki/gender-discussion/

Thank you for that!

Golly so kind of you to call our discussions here farting in to the wind! What respect you have for women’s opinions!
You’ve done very little but criticise us and these threads since you started participating so forgive me for thinking you seem a bit disingenuous thanking @greenvelvet for her excellent list.

Farting into the wind as in existing in an echo chamber of no conversation with anyone with even a slight differing view. I know I've been critical, but not criticised in any harsh or offensive way. Just because someone comes at something from a different angle doesn't mean they are spitting at you. I am genuinely thankful for that list and let me be. It seems like anytime my opinions align with people in here I get 'Well then you're transphobic, they'd call you transphobic' and when I don't agree with certain things I'm suddenly being placed within your militant view of people who oppose you. Not everyone falls into the one category some of you give you opposition.

I don’t know what label I put on myself these days but I think I just find men a let down in practically every way. Even today, when great strides have been made in women’s rights, women are still pandering or forced to change their behaviour because of men. Whether it’s watching a fat Jackie Chan win a woman’s beauty pageant, taking a detour to avoid a bunch of men, trying to evade hands on a packed tube, being patronised and mansplained at, being perceived as meat, being killed - it’s an endless list. I see all the trans issues, the popularity of drag as being part of the same thing. We live in a misogynistic world, where women are pushed around, demeaned, and disregarded. A bunch of men who claim they are women want to push real women out of the way, they want to call the shots, be in charge, make the world revolve around them, trying to take over women’s place in society, laugh at women. It’s all part of the same thing. Men see women as inferior beings and of no regard, and if you do push back, you are labeled x or y. Used to be old bag or witch, now it’s Terf.

A lot of things I have seen in here seem to almost define the current state of being a woman as victimhood. Not specifically this post but elements of it. There seems to be a lot of disdain for what we've gone through and the anger is placed on trans women for trying to identify as someone that men have exploited for so many years. I've had some awful things happen in my life, as I am sure most of you have as women too but I've never seen being a victim as part of being a woman. Thats very sad but I can understand how someone could get there based on their experiences with men.

Why is a man going out in makeup and typically feminine clothing "brave"? Men really have to do so little for a pat on the back.

One of the most telling things from reading countless trans widows stories, aside from how all the patterns of behaviour are the same, is how the "I'm a woman now" nonsense only ever extends to lingerie, clothes, makeup and sexual subservience (because of course they think women are just sexually submissive holes for dicks), but never to picking up the bulk of the housework, childcare, caring for elderly relatives, all the labour done primarily by women.

Because men... you do realise that effeminate men get trounced on by...men. Gay bashed, trans bashed, just bashed. One google, this happened yesterday in Ireland.

Popular Dublin drag queen left injured after homophobic attack in city centre

They were in a shop after a gig in the George when the men began to harass them

www.dublinlive.ie

I say thats brave, because there are bad men out there who would duck other men up for that behaviour. So yeah I do think it is brave for them.

 

[Autumncolors]

Thank you for that!



Farting into the wind as in existing in an echo chamber of no conversation with anyone with even a slight differing view. I know I've been critical, but not criticised in any harsh or offensive way. Just because someone comes at something from a different angle doesn't mean they are spitting at you. I am genuinely thankful for that list and let me be. It seems like anytime my opinions align with people in here I get 'Well then you're transphobic, they'd call you transphobic' and when I don't agree with certain things I'm suddenly being placed within your militant view of people who oppose you. Not everyone falls into the one category some of you give you opposition.



A lot of things I have seen in here seem to almost define the current state of being a woman as victimhood. Not specifically this post but elements of it. There seems to be a lot of disdain for what we've gone through and the anger is placed on trans women for trying to identify as someone that men have exploited for so many years. I've had some awful things happen in my life, as I am sure most of you have as women too but I've never seen being a victim as part of being a woman. Thats very sad but I can understand how someone could get there based on their experiences with men.




Because men... you do realise that effeminate men get trounced on by...men. Gay bashed, trans bashed, just bashed. One google, this happened yesterday in Ireland.

Popular Dublin drag queen left injured after homophobic attack in city centre

They were in a shop after a gig in the George when the men began to harass them

www.dublinlive.ie

I say thats brave, because there are bad men out there who would duck other men up for that behaviour. So yeah I do think it is brave for them.

WE do not think you are transphobic! TRAs are the ones stating that if you think they are not exactly the same than what they call “cis” people you are transphobic.

Accusing us of playing the victims is terrible. If you don’t realise that we live in a patriarchal society you obviously can’t understand why we think women should be protected.

Then, you come here to ask us to allow men into our spaces and you post an example of a gay man assaulted by other men. Don’t you see this why we say that MEN are dangerous and MEN should deal with their violence issues?!!! We have told you several times we don’t care if men want to wear dresses but we don’t want them to be able to use our spaces.

 

[maytoseptember]

I know @Icing _on_ the_cake said that “genuine trans” in the wiki was a touchy issue, but being totally honest I think this sentence may not be fully representative of people on this thread either:

Some think transitioning is not OK regardless of circumstance and there are no genuine transsexuals

I am forever shouting that we can’t delineate between “true trans” and “fake trans” because “true trans” doesn’t exist. But that isn’t the same as saying there are no genuine transsexuals.

There is no “born in the wrong body”. There is no mystical gendered soul ending up in the wrong body by an accident of birth. It’s all mental illness. However, that’s not to say that transitioning isn’t medically and ethically permissible under very strict criteria, IMO.

The main argument from my perspective is that surgical transition needs to be carried out upon as small a number of people as possible, because the results are so fraught with complications, and people are sometimes left with complications that can’t be resolved.

I don’t think anyone believes there are no genuine transsexuals. Gender dysphoria is real.

The problem these days is that “gender dysphoria” seems to exist in two camps:

1. So-called old school transsexuals who got all the surgeries and hormones because their mental distress was too severe

2. The younger cohort who have been suckered into social contagion/ROGD and porn sickness/AGP

Please note I’m not criticising anyone who has poured so much time and effort into the wiki. Everyone will have their own individual take on the key issues so it’s an impossible task to represent the GC argument.

So all single parents are queer then? I don’t get it. Was the woman herself queer? I hate the word queer by the way, gives me the shivers.

Anything that isn’t the white-cis-heterosexual (snore) norm is queer now, get with the program, grandma!

 

[petitspois]

Someone I always think of in these discussions is Nadia from Big Brother years ago, she made no sign to anyone in the house that she was trans and just got on with it! She said it in her intro video and that was about it.

It’s so different these days with everyone shouting things from the rooftops. If you’re around a trans person, they MUST let you know every five minutes.

Agreed but she was also put in the house for shock factor and as a bit of a circus freak too which was cruel.

 

[mindlessness]

It's hard in a wiki to summarise all the diversity of thought within the broadly gender critical space. I'd prefer if the wiki just directed to websites/news articles/different GC people online. The onus isn't/shouldn't be on the users of this thread to do the research for someone coming in here 'asking questions' and trying to 'listen'. (Plus in 35 threads we have already done that, and there's links and posts galore, Just click 'most liked' on any of the Gender threads and you'll see lots!)

 

[weeweegie]

Someone I always think of in these discussions is Nadia from Big Brother years ago, she made no sign to anyone in the house that she was trans and just got on with it! She said it in her intro video and that was about it.

It’s so different these days with everyone shouting things from the rooftops. If you’re around a trans person, they MUST let you know every five minutes.

Edited to add I remember whenever someone got evicted Davina would do a big reveal that Nadia used to be a man and everyone would act shocked, apart from Victor who said the only two things you can see from space are the great wall of China and Nadia’s jaw

Nadia, what a blast from the past! I felt sorry for her but liked her too. There was a thing where she couldn’t spell the word balloon or something (I think she was Portuguese?) and I remember pissin myself laughing as she was getting so het up about it. It was funnier than I described it I’ll need to look up that clip!

 

[holliebollie]

More nonsense on Snapchat. Trans female who basically now just looks like an aged masculine looking woman. Gender affirming haircut, can it GET any more reductive? It’s a hair cut! You can get this hair if you are a man or a woman, Jesus H CHRIST.

 

[SueDoyou]

Nadia, what a blast from the past! I felt sorry for her but liked her too. There was a thing where she couldn’t spell the word balloon or something (I think she was Portuguese?) and I remember pissin myself laughing as she was getting so het up about it. It was funnier than I described it I’ll need to look up that clip!

I always remember her song as well and her performing it on CD UK! Remember that!

Can I ask why everyone so far has seemed comfortable using Nadia's chosen pro-nouns?

 

[Phil Anne Throw Pee]

WE do not think you are transphobic! TRAs are the ones stating that if you think they are not exactly the same than what they call “cis” people you are transphobic.

Accusing us of playing the victims is terrible. If you don’t realise that we live in a patriarchal society you obviously can’t understand why we think women should be protected.

Then, you come here to ask us to allow men into our spaces and you post an example of a gay man assaulted by other men. Don’t you see this why we say that MEN are dangerous and MEN should deal with their violence issues?!!! We have told you several times we don’t care if men want to wear dresses but we don’t want them to be able to use our spaces.

I wouldn't bother. I've never read such a pile of disingenuous, repetitive, ill-informed, manipulative drivel in all my life, with the crushing finale of 'thanks to everyone who said don't leave' like this is a bleeping chimp's tea party.

 

[Autumncolors]

Women are expected to be the default parent which is why single dads are put on a pedestal. Imagine a man having to do the bulk of the care work/ house work/wife work That’s why you always see widowed men moving on lightning fast with new women, and although people might be surprised, they find it understandable.

Speaking of single parenthood, I saw a Tiktok today of a 30yo woman chronicling her life as a single mother after getting pregnant during a ONS. She seemed nice and she explained that she’d given the father the opportunity to have a role in the baby’s life but he wasn’t interested. So far so typical.

One of the comments was praising her for portraying “queer parenthood” so positively.

Queer? What’s queer about a man knocking up a woman and disappearing into the sunset?

Then I remembered queer theory being all about “queering” social norms including the family and thought ah… that’s what you mean. Anything can be queer as long as you say it is so.

French video here but she says she is heterosexual and queer so the man asks her what is queer and she can’t answer.

 

[Phil Anne Throw Pee]

Agreed but she was also put in the house for shock factor and as a bit of a circus freak too which was cruel.

Everyone was pretty much a circus freak in that house to be fair.

 

[Autumncolors]

I wouldn't bother. I've never read such a pile of disingenuous, repetitive, ill-informed, manipulative drivel in all my life, with the crushing finale of 'thanks to everyone who said don't leave' like this is a bleeping chimp's tea party.

You are right. I am tired of this.

 

[Pipsy]

Apologises if this has already been mentioned, need to catch up with the thread. Has everyone signed Maya's petition?

Petition: Update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic “sex” is biological sex

The Government must exercise its power under s.23 of the Gender Recognition Act to modify the operation of the Equality Act 2010 by specifying the terms sex, male, female, man & woman, in the operation of that law, mean biological sex and not "sex as modified by a Gender Recognition Certificate"

petition.parliament.uk