Racism Discussions

[Pambo]

The stuff with Adjoa Andoh jogged a memory that I thought I'd post here. I work doing sound editing, and a lot of stuff I do is for stage plays. I was teching a play a few weeks ago. It was good, it was about four northern guys attending a friend's funeral (set in Blackpool, I think?). I got chatting with the director afterwards, who told me that the play had been rejected by another theatre, because it was about 4 white guys.

This theatre has a policy that anyone who wants to hire their venue cannot have an all white cast! I made enquiries with other people I know, and it's true. That's insane. It's been growing in the past ten years that stage shows will be criticised for being too white, but this thing where you HAVE to have a non-white character, even if the play is a biopic of the Bronte sisters (real example) is just nuts. It's now the official policy of Equity (the union for theatre people) that you have to cast a play without thinking about the race of the character. Even if that means a black mother in the play ends up with a white kid, or if the play is set in 1900s Scotland.

I totally believe in making theatre more accessible and representative for everyone, but that means telling more and diverse stories, rather than shoe-horning in diversity hires into everything. I'm not trying to be a dick, but most people in Britain are white and most people working in theatre are white. If everyone in the play is white, that IS representative of modern Britain! Imagine if in any other job you got told "You must have a non-white person working in this office. Why? Because you're racist if you don't."

I believe these policies are made by wealthy elite people who live in London, and never go outside of their bubble. They want to reflect the modern diversity of LONDON, because they don't know or care about the north, or the countryside, or poor white working class areas.

More annoyingly, everyone working at that venue is white, so they aren't practising what they preach.

This BS works in other ways too. I remember reading years back, the director of 'Harry Brown' saying he knew that for realism the council estate gang would be majority (if not all) black kids, but he also knew the backlash that'd invoke, and as films cost millions to make, it just wasn't something he was prepared to risk, so the gang was a bunch of white kids.

I also recall reading a black actor commenting that this sh1t hurt careers, as no one wanted to cast or write a black villain, for fear of how that might be received. Now that I think on it, I haven't see a James Bond nemesis who was black since 'Live And Let Die' and that was filmed in the early 70s.
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Serious level of clown world in this report: Complaints about the 'terribly white' Palace reveal rocky road ahead.

Yet racism is increasingly a one-way street, where everyone must tread on eggshells except when it comes to white people, because you can say what the hell you like about them.

We seem to be reaching a stage in modern race relations where the very fact of being white is pejorative in itself, especially if you also happen to be a member of the sitting-duck Royal Family.

So it is interesting that Adjoa Andoh hasn't felt the need to apologise - and neither has lawyer, author and media personality Dr Shola Mos-Shogbamimu.

Shola went into an absolute Twitter rage when the first official photographic portraits of Queen Camilla were published on Wednesday.

Why? She believed the new queen was posing in Buckingham Palace in front of a sideboard groaning with blackamoor statuettes, which today are seen to have racist connotations because of their associations with colonialism and slavery.

'This is staggeringly racist offensive and disgusting. After Princess Michael of Kent's Blackamoor disaster with Meghan Markle, this is a choice and intentional,' fumed Dr Mos-Shogbamimu.

After it was pointed out the objects in question were weeping women candelabra and not blackamoors at all, she deleted her tweet but carried on raging.

If there were blackamoors in the palace, they should be placed in a museum so that 'history did not repeat itself', she harrumphed.

'My outrage if it were true still stands,' she added.

We were by now in some parallel universe, a preposterous nirvana of fake, indulged outrage where Dr Mos-Shogbamimu was totally wrong but continued to coddle her own fury as if she were totally right.

And somehow still felt perfectly justified in calling Queen Camilla 'disgusting' and 'staggeringly' racist.

To be clear, Andoh did not call for white genocide, but if she did she should be ashamed of herself for such a disgusting and staggeringly racist remark and cancelled, and my outrage still stands at the comment I imagined her making

 

[monga]

 

[Lonette]

David Starkey at it again.

Does he do it for attention? He must know what he's doing.

 

[daydreamer95]

David Starkey at it again.

Does he do it for attention? He must know what he's doing.

Sorry I know it’s been a while since you posted but do you remember what this post was about please?

There’s lots of articles of things he has said I just wondered if this was something more than the usual from him

 

[daydreamer95]

Found article same day as Lonette’s post on David Starkey

From a quick Google spin I’ve found some concerns from the Jewish community that supporting BLM could be a conflict

I think Pambo mentioned something like this idea of conflict with the left and Muslim community


Left-wing wants to replace Holocaust with Black Lives Matter, says David Starkey

The historian claimed movements such as Black Lives Matter wanted to destroy ‘white culture’.

By Christopher McKeon 17 May 2023

In a speech to the National Conservatism conference in London, David Starkey claimed that groups such as Black Lives Matter were attempting to destroy “white culture” and “do exactly what was done to German culture because of Nazism and the Holocaust”.

He said: “The determination is to replace the Holocaust with slavery. In other words, this is why Jews are under such attack from the left, there’s jealousy, fundamentally. There is jealousy of the moral primacy of the Holocaust and a determination to replace it with slavery.”

The historian’s comments brought swift condemnation, with Daniel Sugarman, public affairs director at the Board of Deputies of British Jews, tweeting that they were “pathetic attempts to drive a wedge between communities” that “will not work”.

Left-wing wants to replace Holocaust with Black Lives Matter, says David Starkey

The historian claimed movements such as Black Lives Matter wanted to destroy ‘white culture’.

www.standard.co.uk

‘We may lose US’ if liberal Jews continue backing BDS, BLM — Diaspora minister

By JACOB MAGID 10 August 2021

Nachman Shai couples Israel boycott movement with Black Lives Matter, which was criticized for antisemitic remarks made by some of its leaders but won support of many US Jews

NEW YORK — Diaspora Affairs Minister Nachman Shai warned last week that if liberal American Jews continue supporting the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions and Black Lives Matter movements, Jerusalem may lose the support of the United States altogether.

Making a guest appearance on the American Jewish Committee’s People of the Pod podcast, Shai said he recently briefed fellow members of the Israeli government on the status of American Jewry, telling them that “if we see more of the radical left and progressive liberal Jews continuing to support BDS and Black Lives Matter, and similar to the Palestinians… relat[ing] to Israel as a genocide state or an apartheid state, we may lose America.”

'We may lose US' if liberal Jews continue backing BDS, BLM -- Diaspora minister | The Times of Israel

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[monga]

I guess it’s acceptable because they’re white

Applicants seeking to join RAF described as 'useless white male pilots' in bid to hit 'impossible' diversity targets

Leaked emails show the pressure apparently being applied to filter out white male recruits and fast-track women and ethnic minorities. It can also be revealed 31 white men are to receive £5,000 each to compensate them for being unfairly disadvantaged by the approach.

news.sky.com

 

[daydreamer95]

More from the article I already quoted 600 Jewish organisations took an advert out to support BLM but due to some positions / comments made by leaders there was concern within the Jewish community

Now BLM the organisation not movement is widely criticised due to the founders this article is from 2021

If you know the history of Israel you will understand why support in the US is such a critical issue so I’m discussing this in the sense that I’m well aware why some Jewish people would question supporting an organisation / movement if it becomes at odds with their own interests as a people supporting the state of Israel

Im interested in competing conflicting interests this is just one example

Many posts on this thread are about comments considered discriminatory and racist towards white people @monga article there’s a quote I don’t want to see more useless white male pilots that person knows they can’t say useless black or brown or even useless women etc but he can say white male because there’s an existing culture that it’s acceptable

What is the benefit / outcome of allowing discriminatory language with one race of people in places where they are the majority?

Should supporting issues related to race be conditional?

'We may lose US' if liberal Jews continue backing BDS, BLM -- Diaspora minister | The Times of Israel

www.timesofisrael.com

Now it’s accepted that BLM Israel has long identified the BDS movement as a significant threat against which millions of dollars have been invested, but the lumping of the boycott movement together with the Black Lives Matter movement is less common.

Some major Jewish organizations in the US have expressed opposition to statements and positions made by some BLM activists. However, the movement has won the support of many US Jews, and the Anti-Defamation League has spoken out against portraying its supporters as “violent extremists.”

Over 600 Jewish organizations, representing the majority of American Jews, signed a letter in support of the Black Lives Matter movement that was published in a full-page New York Times ad in August 2020.

Shai said “there were ideas to rely on other groups in America today” for support, instead of American Jewry, but that he rejects such proposals. He appeared to be referring to recent remarks made by former Israeli ambassador to the US Ron Dermer who suggested that Israel should prioritize the “passionate and unequivocal” support of evangelical Christians over that of American Jews, who he said are “disproportionately among our critics.”

“I have to make sure that hundreds of thousands of you will stay with us,” said Shai. “They may be very critical of what’s going on in Israel. I also have a lot of criticism… it doesn’t matter.”

An ad taken out in the New York Times by over 600 Jewish organizations in support of the Black Lives Matter movement.

“Basically, we should have the same values, we should believe in the same things, we should get together and help each other… for [a] common future,” Shai said.

The Labor party minister expressed hope that two years from now he will no longer hear voices from the “Democratic Party sidelines of refusing to send arms to Israel or to support Israel internationally.”

During the recent Gaza conflict, several progressive lawmakers unsuccessfully sought to block the Biden administration’s $735 million sale of precision-guided missiles to Israel, as pressure mounted in the Democratic Party for an immediate ceasefire between Israel and the Hamas terror organization.

Shai said he relies on American Jews to influence the “the internal American public discourse” to Israel’s benefit. “We need you for this — not only for your donations and other ways of supporting Israel, which is appreciated very much.”

Asked how he defines success for his position, the Diaspora affairs minister said it would it would be “maintain[ing] bipartisan support for Israel.”

 

[monga]

Call it what it is …Racism!

Royal Air Force unlawfully discriminated against white male recruits in bid to boost diversity, inquiry finds

The Royal Air Force unlawfully discriminated against white men in a recruitment drive aimed at boosting diversity, an official inquiry has found.

news.sky.com

 

[OwlAtTheMoon]

Call it what it is …Racism!

Royal Air Force unlawfully discriminated against white male recruits in bid to boost diversity, inquiry finds

The Royal Air Force unlawfully discriminated against white men in a recruitment drive aimed at boosting diversity, an official inquiry has found.

news.sky.com

The 31 men who were held back in one IT aspect of their training have now been compensated with the £5k they would have received anyway as a bonus. No long-term effects on their careers, no job losses. Sounds like a decent effort at boosting women & ethnic minorities into RAF staffing has suffered from poor legal advice about positive action which is legal versus positive discrimination which isn't. Not racism though. (See the myriads of posts going back on this very thread explaining why).

 

[monga]

The 31 men who were held back in one IT aspect of their training have now been compensated with the £5k they would have received anyway as a bonus. No long-term effects on their careers, no job losses. Sounds like a decent effort at boosting women & ethnic minorities into RAF staffing has suffered from poor legal advice about positive action which is legal versus positive discrimination which isn't. Not racism though. (See the myriads of posts going back on this very thread explaining why).

You can twist it anyway you like it’s racism plain and simple.

 

[Gloria Rostron]

The 31 men who were held back in one IT aspect of their training have now been compensated with the £5k they would have received anyway as a bonus. No long-term effects on their careers, no job losses. Sounds like a decent effort at boosting women & ethnic minorities into RAF staffing has suffered from poor legal advice about positive action which is legal versus positive discrimination which isn't. Not racism though. (See the myriads of posts going back on this very thread explaining why).

Yes it is racism. Pure and simple. When we have portions of society being discriminated against, we do not have equality. You may think that there are "no long term effects" of this behaviour, but there are likely to be long term mental health effects and hurt from this kind of discrimination. It's institutional racism.

 

[Baby Giraffe]

Yes it is racism. Pure and simple. When we have portions of society being discriminated against, we do not have equality. You may think that there are "no long term effects" of this behaviour, but there are likely to be long term mental health effects and hurt from this kind of discrimination. It's institutional racism.

You can twist it anyway you like it’s racism plain and simple.

Just because something is discriminatory it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s racist. It’s not difficult to understand if you think about it.

 

[monga]

Just because something is discriminatory it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s racist. It’s not difficult to understand if you think about it.

If that was done against any other race it would be racism, right or wrong?

 

[OwlAtTheMoon]

My post merits a vomit emoji, Gloria - really?

 

[Gloria Rostron]

My post merits a vomit emoji, Gloria - really?

Yes, because of the way you minimised the mental impact racism has on the victims and also implied that a £5K pay off makes it all alright. I respectfully comment that if you don't believe that certain people can be victims of racism then you don't comprehend equality.

 

[PeteM]

Missed an entire thread because social life but just wanted to pop in and say regarding comments on my last post: can anyone who thinks that white people experience racism please please try and educate themselves on the definition of what ‘racism’ actually is. It’s a really serious concept that should be understood properly by white people.

No white person experiences, or can ever experience, racism because racism stems from a power imbalance caused by generations of utter oppression and a lack of any privilege in society. Even the poorest white person still has white privilege. White parents generally don’t have to worry the police will shoot their children for example if they’re just playing in a park or jogging etc. Black women are still much more likely to die in childbirth. Well off black men driving nice cars in perfectly legal ways are pulled over by police constantly, because of racist profiling. People with ethnic names on their CVs have those CVs discarded in favour of people with non ethnic names with IDENTICAL CVs. Look at how the Windrush generation have been treated and are perceived. Look at the Stephen Lawrence case. There have been countless studies on all these things you can go and look at.

Efforts to change these things like positive discrimination and understanding the benefits of diversity are not you suddenly experiencing racism. Someone calling you a Karen isn’t racism.

Reverse racism is NOT a thing. Your minor annoyance or experience of what you think is racism is NOT racism. It’s not. Your whole race is not systematically judged and considered suspicious and probably criminal because of the colour of your skin. WHITE PEOPLE DO NOT EXPERIENCE RACISM.

And don’t @ me if you disagree, just go and do some research. Just google reverse racism or do white people experience racism. If you can’t see the true difference once you have done proper reading then I’m afraid it’s because you’re probably a racist or being deliberately stupid and I don’t want to converse with you and I’ll not be looking anyway because even confrontation on important topics makes me want to puke.

I think you could have articulated this better. I'd love you to tell my Irish parents that they've never experienced racism, considering the "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs" culture that they experienced when they moved to the UK, experiencing the CV issue on account of their ethnic names, and my own memories of them being called "thick Paddies" by wonderful "officials" giving the car the once over coming off the ferry at Dover.

Of course black people experience racism far more. But you're diminishing very valid examples of racism. It might just be that you're the one who needs to do some research.

 

[almara]

I think you could have articulated this better. I'd love you to tell my Irish parents that they've never experienced racism, considering the "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs" culture that they experienced when they moved to the UK, experiencing the CV issue on account of their ethnic names, and my own memories of them being called "thick Paddies" by wonderful "officials" giving the car the once over coming off the ferry at Dover.

Of course black people experience racism far more. But you're diminishing very valid examples of racism. It might just be that you're the one who needs to do some research.

So true. And it’s still there now in subtle ways. I know there’s a whole historic background of UK propaganda depicting the Irish as a race of less than human Neanderthals or white Apes to justify past invasion and pillage. Google anti Irish propaganda cartoons if you want to see. It has never been fully corrected in the UK educational system. It would be nice to think those days are gone. However I experienced extremely (what I consider) racist and derogatory comments recently from my English in-laws. I know that they were doing it in what they felt was a fun and affectionate way as actually we do get on very well. But it shocked me to see how unconsciously racist people can be. It shouldn’t be a competition though between who experiences it more.

 

[PeteM]

It's as low as it gets to refer to a nationality as thick. But that's always been at the core of anti-Irish racism, despite the many rightly famous Irish authors and playwrights who clearly excel at a language that was imposed upon them.

 

[Blueblue123]

Some of the posts I'm reading! Being called names is terrible but some people should be grateful that's as bad as it gets for them.

For others, racism is literally the difference between life or death. A poor quality of life versus a decent living.

It's fine to discuss experiences but I'm seeing some people act as though being called names is worse than or equivalent to what other people go through.

 

[monga]

Some of the posts I'm reading! Being called names is terrible but some people should be grateful that's as bad as it gets for them.

For others, racism is literally the difference between life or death. A poor quality of life versus a decent living.

It's fine to discuss experiences but I'm seeing some people act as though being called names is worse than or equivalent to what other people go through.

It’s not only names…What and by whom do others “ go through “ ?