Racism Discussions

[daydreamer95]

2017 Interview The Refinery

Paris Lees Speaks To Reni Eddo-Lodge, Author Of 'Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race'

The journalists, writers and activists sit down together to discuss what needs to be done to tackle racism in this country.

www.refinery29.com

Reni Eddo-Lodge: “I think lots of people also have personal prejudice and I tell that anecdote in the book about finding myself in a café with the black man telling me, "I save the best cuts of meat for us and not white people". The fact of the matter is he was prejudiced.”

Paris Lees Interviewer: But would you call that racism?

Reni Eddo-Lodge: “In its literal terms, it’s prejudging on racial prejudice. But he’s not in a position of power to negatively affect those white people’s life chances, if you know what I mean? I think lots of people have racial prejudice, but white people are more likely to be landlords, more likely to be CEOs, more likely to be in positions of power. So if you need a job or you need a home or you need an education, they’re the gatekeepers. I think racism is prejudice plus power, that’s where it really takes hold. Racism is a byword for prejudice and interpersonal nastiness, but I want to look at the bigger picture of institutional bias.”

The black man is prejudiced for reserving his best cuts of meat for black customers, here only the different treatment of white people is mentioned so we don’t know how this particular man felt about Asian people for instance

He isn’t racist because he has no power white people tend to be the gatekeepers.


Paris Lees Interviewer: I’m really glad that you also break down the idea that people of colour are coming over to Britain to grab all the resources. It’s like, "Hello! We’ve always had a class system in this country and the people who’ve got resources have never given a tit about the people at the bottom. If you take away all the people with brown skin, that system’s not just going to suddenly disappear!"

Reni Eddo-Lodge: “Well I wanted to talk about this idea of the "white working class". And I’m not saying that white people aren’t working class, but I am saying that not all working-class people are white, so can we ditch this phrase? Because it’s not accurate and I feel like it’s there to further anti-immigrant sentiment.”

Identifying issues specific to groups is acceptable but here Reni says ditch phrase white working class because it furthers anti immigrant sentiment, note the article describes Reni as a working class black woman.

What should people say instead to identify white working class children in particular so their specific issues can be addressed?


Reni Eddo-Lodge: “I talk in the book about the fact that young black people are more likely to go to university but much less likely to get into the best, and when they do graduate they’re much more likely to graduate with lower grades, and earn less. You could interpret these stats and say, "Well it’s just because they’re not very good" or you could say, "The system is fucked, the system is biased". And there’s also evidence to show that if you come from poverty, regardless of your colour, that’s the case. Some people like to go on about meritocracy but the reality is that there’s a really homogenous group of people – basically middle-aged white men – who are hogging the positions we equate with talent.”

Are these middle aged white men working together to hog these positions for themselves?

 

[Pambo]

Reni Eddo-Lodge: “I think lots of people also have personal prejudice and I tell that anecdote in the book about finding myself in a café with the black man telling me, "I save the best cuts of meat for us and not white people". The fact of the matter is he was prejudiced.”

Paris Lees Interviewer: But would you call that racism?

Reni Eddo-Lodge: “In its literal terms, it’s prejudging on racial prejudice. But he’s not in a position of power to negatively affect those white people’s life chances, if you know what I mean? I think lots of people have racial prejudice, but white people are more likely to be landlords, more likely to be CEOs, more likely to be in positions of power. So if you need a job or you need a home or you need an education, they’re the gatekeepers. I think racism is prejudice plus power, that’s where it really takes hold. Racism is a byword for prejudice and interpersonal nastiness, but I want to look at the bigger picture of institutional bias.”

So she acknowledges it’s a literal act of dictionary definition racism but then goes on to explain why it isn’t in her definition, specifically for non-white racists, where they don’t hold ‘power’.

Like the power to decide who gets the best cuts of meat.

So this black man, who by another of her definitions is the gatekeeper of the best cuts of meat, and who straight-up admits he uses skin colour as the basis to discriminate on ("I save the best cuts of meat for us and not white people"), isn’t a racist.

I’m sure she’d hold the same opinion of a white cafe worker in similar circumstances in black majority rule South Africa, a country ranked as the 9th most racist country in the world, and 5th in most racist country in 2023.


Reni Eddo-Lodge: “Well I wanted to talk about this idea of the "white working class". And I’m not saying that white people aren’t working class, but I am saying that not all working-class people are white, so can we ditch this phrase? Because it’s not accurate and I feel like it’s there to further anti-immigrant sentiment.”

White working class is a demographic. Like black victims of homicide is a demographic. With the exception of Eddo-Lodge, no one’s saying all working class people are white, but all white working class are. Why does she find that so difficult to grasp?


Reni Eddo-Lodge: “I talk in the book about the fact that young black people are more likely to go to university but much less likely to get into the best, and when they do graduate they’re much more likely to graduate with lower grades, and earn less. You could interpret these stats and say, "Well it’s just because they’re not very good" or you could say, "The system is fucked, the system is biased". And there’s also evidence to show that if you come from poverty, regardless of your colour, that’s the case. Some people like to go on about meritocracy but the reality is that there’s a really homogenous group of people – basically middle-aged white men – who are hogging the positions we equate with talent.”

Are young black people more likely to go to university due to positive discrimination and fulfilling diversity quota requirements or due to ‘meritocracy’, which she later dismisses as something “people like to go on about”.

The people 'going on about' meritocracy traditionally being proponents of fair treatment for minorities, but somehow that’s now a bad thing?

Yes, analysing the stats would be advisable before declaring the “system is fucked, the system is biased”, but Eddo-Lodge doesn’t seem to have done that and due to her bias, declares it’s due to bias.


I found Areo’s review of “Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race” by Reni Eddo Lodge of interest and expresses the concerns which are evident just from reading small excerpts of Eddo-Lodge’s work.

Personally, I don’t dismiss white privilege, and think it’s an arguable point. Where I do envy POCs, is in being able to write utter drivel on race relations and have it taken it seriously, simply because it emanates from a black person or other minority.

 

[Pambo]

And speaking of drivel, ‘Bridgerton’ star Adjoa Andoh's 'terribly white' jab at royal family during live coronation coverage stuns presenters.

 

[monga]

And speaking of drivel, ‘Bridgerton’ star Adjoa Andoh's 'terribly white' jab at royal family during live coronation coverage stuns presenters.

I’m no royalist but why should they be called out for being a white family a very
Odd comment to make and said more about her than them.

 

[daydreamer95]

25 Jan 2023 Darshna Soni C4

How Ukrainian refugees are handling cultural integration in ethnically diverse areas of the UK

Just over a hundred thousand Ukrainians have sought refuge in the UK – the vast majority of them women and children.

But not all of them have found it easy to settle into a country where the ethnic diversity and cultural values are very different from what they’ve been used to back home.

How Ukrainian refugees are handling cultural integration in ethnically diverse areas of the UK

Just over a hundred thousand Ukrainians have sought refuge in the UK - the vast majority of them women and children.

www.channel4.com

1. Host living in Birmingham says her female Ukrainian guests told her within a week that there was too many Muslims
2. Ukrainian refugee complained about demographics said her son wouldn’t be safe at school
3. Refugee left and was relocated presumably to an area that isn’t as ethnically diverse
4. Correspondent Darshna Soni asks Cheryl Garvey diversity trainer at a voluntary workshop for Ukrainian refugees do you feel assumptions are made about you, the response is “Yes I’m a 6ft tall black woman um yeah I’m sure when I came in I could see people really clutching their handbags”
5. Then told that the government has given £10,500 per refugee to councils to help them integrate
6. The question of integration has been raised with each wave of immigration
7. At the workshop one Ukrainian woman says she went from the best area in Kiev to the worst area in Birmingham there’s comment about terrorists, when Darshna Soni says people could be offended you feel it’s not safe because it’s a mixed area she responds defensively saying she has observed statistics from the police this refugee also relocated to another area


Ordinarily if White people say they don’t want to be around too many Muslims or if they suggested that their children wouldn’t be safe in a predominantly Black and Asian school how would it be reported?

This video made me feel uncomfortable why only show the people who moved away from diversity why not show Ukrainians with Black and Asian neighbours who have become friendly to show some balance

 

[Pambo]

25 Jan 2023 Darshna Soni C4

How Ukrainian refugees are handling cultural integration in ethnically diverse areas of the UK

Just over a hundred thousand Ukrainians have sought refuge in the UK – the vast majority of them women and children.

But not all of them have found it easy to settle into a country where the ethnic diversity and cultural values are very different from what they’ve been used to back home.

How Ukrainian refugees are handling cultural integration in ethnically diverse areas of the UK

Just over a hundred thousand Ukrainians have sought refuge in the UK - the vast majority of them women and children.

www.channel4.com

1. Host living in Birmingham says her female Ukrainian guests told her within a week that there was too many Muslims
2. Ukrainian refugee complained about demographics said her son wouldn’t be safe at school
3. Refugee left and was relocated presumably to an area that isn’t as ethnically diverse
4. Correspondent Darshna Soni asks Cheryl Garvey diversity trainer at a voluntary workshop for Ukrainian refugees do you feel assumptions are made about you, the response is “Yes I’m a 6ft tall black woman um yeah I’m sure when I came in I could see people really clutching their handbags”
5. Then told that the government has given £10,500 per refugee to councils to help them integrate
6. The question of integration has been raised with each wave of immigration
7. At the workshop one Ukrainian woman says she went from the best area in Kiev to the worst area in Birmingham there’s comment about terrorists, when Darshna Soni says people could be offended you feel it’s not safe because it’s a mixed area she responds defensively saying she has observed statistics from the police this refugee also relocated to another area


Ordinarily if White people say they don’t want to be around too many Muslims or if they suggested that their children wouldn’t be safe in a predominantly Black and Asian school how would it be reported?

This video made me feel uncomfortable why only show the people who moved away from diversity why not show Ukrainians with Black and Asian neighbours who have become friendly to show some balance

Perhaps not too surprising that women and children comprise the vast majority of Ukrainian refugees as the men remain fighting the war.

There undoubtedly could’ve been more balance in that report but it’s an uncomfortable reality for many that believe in relative multiculturalism - this parochial, naive belief that we’re all more or less the same, adhering to the same values - that we’re not.

The same people who’ll lecture all day long on racism in the UK will ignore that Ukraine and eastern Europe in general is far less tolerant than western Europe: Pew Research Centre, People in Central and Eastern Europe are less accepting of Muslims and Jews, same-sex marriage, and legal abortion.

In a similar regard, Muslims pose a particular conundrum for the left. Islamic countries top the charts for the least racially tolerant countries in the world. In addition, their views such as on gay marriage and homosexuality, frequently have more in common with the extreme right than the left, but the right reject them. The left’s embrace makes for a bizarre relationship when looked at from the perspective of both groups ideology.

 

[Gloria Rostron]

Disclaimer: I don't care for the Monarchy or the coronation.

This is a disgusting RACIST comment made by Adjoa Andoh. Shame on her. She is quite clearly a racist. If you replaced the word white with any other ethnicity in that sentence, there would be a criminal investigation on account of hate speech and whe would never work on television again. So why not in this case? Racism is racism. There is no equality until we are all treated the same.

 

[Pambo]

Andoh said something dumb. She should be called on it, mocked for it, but I don’t agree with cancel culture and don’t think she should lose her livelihood because of it.

However, because the woke-brigade have done that to so many others for similar ‘transgressions’, I get why some are calling for similar treatment re Andoh’s crass remark.

It put me in mind of someone else who got in trouble for their remarks on coronation weekend: historian Dr. David Starkey. Not for the Rishi Sunak comment, but for the “damn blacks” remark that got him effectively cancelled in 2020.

Starkey can be smug, condescending, patronising, and like many academics will frequently stray outside his area of expertise to reveal a shocking naivety at odds with the confidence of his pronouncements.

All that was on display with Andoh, too. She certainly looked like she believed she was making a particularly trenchant point and one that’d get her back slaps and kudos from social media and the usual woke columnists in the press. Given the current BBC milieu, I’m not surprised she didn't stop to think that her comment might be received any other way.

In my opinion, there’s no real difference between “terribly white” and “damn blacks”. Okay, the context is different but since when did context and nuance matter to the McCarthy-like overseers of racial harmony.

The real difference, and crime, is that Starkey is an arrogant, pompous, Conservative voting white man, who doesn’t toe the leftist line. Especially galling is that he actually knows what he’s talking about when it comes to history and can demolish any social media meme-educated leftist with genuine facts and knowledge.

And genuine facts and knowledge has to be cancelled when it can't be countered, regardless of who it emanates from.

 

[londongirl2001]

Yes it's the statement " racism against white people doesn't exist" that shook me. Of course it can. If a group of people gang up on a person and make reference to their race in order to belittle the. Then I call that racism.

This is a genuine question because I’m interested in your thoughts on this (and others‘), but I’ll preface this with the information that I am a person of color: Do you see a difference between racism and racial discrimination?

 

[monga]

This is a genuine question because I’m interested in your thoughts on this (and others‘), but I’ll preface this with the information that I am a person of color: Do you see a difference between racism and racial discrimination?

I don’t ! Mainly because there’s no set meaning of racism it takes many forms .

 

[Pambo]

This is a genuine question because I’m interested in your thoughts on this (and others‘), but I’ll preface this with the information that I am a person of color: Do you see a difference between racism and racial discrimination?

Racism is viewed negatively.

Racial discrimination can be positive or negative, depending on circumstances and intent e.g. positive racial discrimination in terms of diversity hires, negative racial discrimination in terms of deciding which customers get the best cuts of meat. In everyday usage though, there generally isn’t a distinction made between racism and racial discrimination.

Related to positive discrimination but founded in racism, there may be positive racist stereotypes that arise that some don’t mind being associated with (if they can receive benefit from it) e.g. well-endowed black lover, maths-adept Asian, no-BS Latin temperament etc.

 

[Lonette]

Adjoa Andoh's comment quite upset me.

Are we just meant to... not have all-white families anymore? Can't understand why anyone would come out with such a thing. She's probably just on the wind-up to get attention, most like her are, but still. Very, very nasty thing to say in my opinion. I don't believe in cancel culture either but I would like her to apologise. Such people rarely do. Just like the ilk of David Starkey when they come out with appalling things, for balance.

 

[bubbadabut]

Rich white family from a majority white country, who mix with other rich white families in upper class circles end up marrying members of other rich white families. What a surprise! Her moan is a class and privilege issue. I wouldn't get a look in on that balcony, and I'm as white as a milk bottle.

Fed up of these types who are absolutely blinded by race, getting air time just to have a go at whitey. I've never looked at the Japanese Royal family and thought, "you know what they need? Some white people".

I've only seen a short clip but was that Myleene Klass next to her? Her face!

 

[Pambo]

Adjoa Andoh's comment quite upset me.

Are we just meant to... not have all-white families anymore? Can't understand why anyone would come out with such a thing. She's probably just on the wind-up to get attention, most like her are, but still. Very, very nasty thing to say in my opinion. I don't believe in cancel culture either but I would like her to apologise. Such people rarely do. Just like the ilk of David Starkey when they come out with appalling things, for balance.

Around the same time as David Starkey was forced to resign from Cambridge, another Cambridge academic, Dr Priyamvada Gopalwas, was busy declaring “white lives don’t matter” and “abolish whiteness” and the university stood by her. Wasn’t nothing wrong in that, apparently, and I don't think she ever apologised for it.

She was "misunderstood" while Starkey was a white hood wearing, cross burning racist.

But Starkey brings a lot of it on himself so I’ve no sympathy. He ain’t stupid, he’s talked on woke cancel culture, so he must be able to second-guess how his comments are going to be taken.

Maybe he doesn’t care. Maybe he is racist. Maybe a bit of both. I don’t know. I’ll admit though, I’ve enjoyed his historical programming. I’ve also enjoyed enjoyed seeing him as an opinion panellist. He knows his historical sh1t and can hold his own with anyone.

He’s what Katie Hopkins might be if those brain-boosting pills from ‘Limitless’ were a reality.

 

[Notorious PIG]

Adjoa Andoh's comment quite upset me.

Are we just meant to... not have all-white families anymore? Can't understand why anyone would come out with such a thing. She's probably just on the wind-up to get attention, most like her are, but still. Very, very nasty thing to say in my opinion. I don't believe in cancel culture either but I would like her to apologise. Such people rarely do. Just like the ilk of David Starkey when they come out with appalling things, for balance.

I also thought her comments were disgusting.

Anyone who criticizes any family’s racial make up, whether it’s because they are only one race, or different races, or all white, or all black, or exclusively one skin tone, or all Sikh, or all Jewish, or any other variable, is racist. Plain and simple. I detest these people.

This racist woman is mixed race (black Ghanaian father, white British mother) which is absolutely fine, but I get the impression she thinks her family gets brownie points (no pun intended) for it and mono-racial families should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Lonette]

There's a surprising amount of people in the FailOnline comments defending Andoh today, which I did not expect to see!

 

[Pambo]

Good effort from Andoh: 'Terribly white' Coronation balcony comment from Bridgerton star tops Ofcom complaints of the year.

A Bridgerton star’s comment that the Royal family’s balcony appearance during the Coronation was “terribly white” has become the most complained about moment on TV this year.

Adjoa Andoh’s remarks, made during ITV’s coverage of the event, has generated more than 4,000 complaints to Ofcom, the media regulator..

The 60-year-old actress, who plays Lady Danbury in the Netflix series, has since insisted that she did not mean to cause any offence.

Andoh told Tom Bradby on Coronation Day that the appearance of the family on the Buckingham Palace balcony contrasted with the earlier events at Westminster Abbey.

“We’ve gone from the rich diversity of the abbey to a terribly white balcony. I was very struck by that,” she said, adding: “I am also looking to those younger generations and thinking, ‘What are the nuances that they will inhabit when they grow?’”

Ofcom has since received 4,165 complaints about the remarks, making it the most complained about moment of 2023.

By contrast, the most complained about moment last year was related to alleged misogynistic and bullying behaviour by some contestants on Love Island, receiving 2,630 negative comments..

The coverage of the Queen’s funeral on Sky News was the tenth most complained about moment of 2022. Ofcom received 599 complaints about the channel reporting on a Justice for Chris Kaba walk in London while people were on their way to pay tribute to Elizabeth II lying in state. Mr Kaba, a 24-year-old black man, died after he was shot by a Met Police firearms officer in Streatham, south London, on Sept 5 2022.

Andoh’s comments were branded “nonsense” by the director of Don’t Divide Us, the racial tolerance campaign group, and Ofcom said it was considering whether to investigate the issue further.

A spokesman for Ofcom said: “We are assessing the complaints against our broadcasting rules, before deciding whether or not to investigate.”

Andoh reflected on the controversy on BBC Radio 4's Sunday morning show with Paddy O'Connell, during which she said: “I think I upset a few people yesterday.”

She added: “I was talking about the day and how marvellous it was and then looking at the balcony at the end and suddenly going, ‘Oh it’s so white’, because the day had been so mixed and I didn’t mean to upset anybody.”

The King’s Coronation was the most diverse and inclusive in history, featuring representatives from all backgrounds and faiths both in the ceremony and among the congregation.

In a first for the ceremony, peers representing the Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Jewish faiths each presented the King with a piece of regalia.

It was also the first time that gospel music was played at a Coronation when the Ascension Choir, personally requested by the King, performed at the ceremony.

The representatives who were chosen by the King to carry his ceremonial regalia posed a notable contrast to Elizabeth II’s Coronation in 1953, when those performing such roles were all white men who had largely inherited their titles.

ITV declined to comment.

"What are the nuances that they will inhabit when they grow?" I still can't make head nor tail of that one.

 

[InkHeart]

The stuff with Adjoa Andoh jogged a memory that I thought I'd post here. I work doing sound editing, and a lot of stuff I do is for stage plays. I was teching a play a few weeks ago. It was good, it was about four northern guys attending a friend's funeral (set in Blackpool, I think?). I got chatting with the director afterwards, who told me that the play had been rejected by another theatre, because it was about 4 white guys.

This theatre has a policy that anyone who wants to hire their venue cannot have an all white cast! I made enquiries with other people I know, and it's true. That's insane. It's been growing in the past ten years that stage shows will be criticised for being too white, but this thing where you HAVE to have a non-white character, even if the play is a biopic of the Bronte sisters (real example) is just nuts. It's now the official policy of Equity (the union for theatre people) that you have to cast a play without thinking about the race of the character. Even if that means a black mother in the play ends up with a white kid, or if the play is set in 1900s Scotland.

I totally believe in making theatre more accessible and representative for everyone, but that means telling more and diverse stories, rather than shoe-horning in diversity hires into everything. I'm not trying to be a dick, but most people in Britain are white and most people working in theatre are white. If everyone in the play is white, that IS representative of modern Britain! Imagine if in any other job you got told "You must have a non-white person working in this office. Why? Because you're racist if you don't."

I believe these policies are made by wealthy elite people who live in London, and never go outside of their bubble. They want to reflect the modern diversity of LONDON, because they don't know or care about the north, or the countryside, or poor white working class areas.

More annoyingly, everyone working at that venue is white, so they aren't practising what they preach.

 

[InkHeart]

(Just wanted to clarify on my last comment, but it won't let me edit: I absolutely do believe that big west end shows like Mousetrap and Wicked, or Shakespeare plays should cast actors from other ethnic backgrounds, as should most things. To not do that really would be barring non-white people from breaking into the acting world. I'm saying that some things call for a cast to be all white because of realism, and that it shouldn't be a surprise in a majority white country when a majority of people in a certain job are white. For a venue to be rejecting companies over that is just virtue signalling, especially when their own staff are all white.)

 

[Baby Giraffe]

(Just wanted to clarify on my last comment, but it won't let me edit: I absolutely do believe that big west end shows like Mousetrap and Wicked, or Shakespeare plays should cast actors from other ethnic backgrounds, as should most things. To not do that really would be barring non-white people from breaking into the acting world. I'm saying that some things call for a cast to be all white because of realism, and that it shouldn't be a surprise in a majority white country when a majority of people in a certain job are white. For a venue to be rejecting companies over that is just virtue signalling, especially when their own staff are all white.)

I think it would be sad if a theatre never had any diversity in their productions but I don't see how it can (or should be) every production