Racism Discussions

[SilverSpoonNotIncluded]

Racism and prejudice are both awful and horrible. It’s not okay to call someone a black bitch, nor a white bitch. However it is true racism is more than just being a dick to someone of a different skin colour to you. There is a power balance and social inequality to racism that as white people we don’t experience, even if someone calls us a derogatory name based on our skin colour.

 

[PeteM]

Missed an entire thread because social life but just wanted to pop in and say regarding comments on my last post: can anyone who thinks that white people experience racism please please try and educate themselves on the definition of what ‘racism’ actually is. It’s a really serious concept that should be understood properly by white people.

No white person experiences, or can ever experience, racism because racism stems from a power imbalance caused by generations of utter oppression and a lack of any privilege in society. Even the poorest white person still has white privilege. White parents generally don’t have to worry the police will shoot their children for example if they’re just playing in a park or jogging etc. Black women are still much more likely to die in childbirth. Well off black men driving nice cars in perfectly legal ways are pulled over by police constantly, because of racist profiling. People with ethnic names on their CVs have those CVs discarded in favour of people with non ethnic names with IDENTICAL CVs. Look at how the Windrush generation have been treated and are perceived. Look at the Stephen Lawrence case. There have been countless studies on all these things you can go and look at.

Efforts to change these things like positive discrimination and understanding the benefits of diversity are not you suddenly experiencing racism. Someone calling you a Karen isn’t racism.

Reverse racism is NOT a thing. Your minor annoyance or experience of what you think is racism is NOT racism. It’s not. Your whole race is not systematically judged and considered suspicious and probably criminal because of the colour of your skin. WHITE PEOPLE DO NOT EXPERIENCE RACISM.

And don’t @ me if you disagree, just go and do some research. Just google reverse racism or do white people experience racism. If you can’t see the true difference once you have done proper reading then I’m afraid it’s because you’re probably a racist or being deliberately stupid and I don’t want to converse with you and I’ll not be looking anyway because even confrontation on important topics makes me want to puke.

I think you could have articulated this better. I'd love you to tell my Irish parents that they've never experienced racism, considering the "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs" culture that they experienced when they moved to the UK, experiencing the CV issue on account of their ethnic names, and my own memories of them being called "thick Paddies" by wonderful "officials" giving the car the once over coming off the ferry at Dover.

Of course black people experience racism far more. But you're diminishing very valid examples of racism. It might just be that you're the one who needs to do some research.

 

[Stargazer]

My view is that a lot of “racism” actually doesn’t stem from discrimination based on skin colour. Rather from different cultural nuances of behaviour. The problem is that often white people hold the positions of power, so their accepted methods of “the way to behave” is held as the standard and any deviation from that is considered less than.

Interesting example. I really don’t consider myself to be racist. I work in property. I had a house available to let in London and people were fighting me for this house. It was really reasonably priced and so there was a huge demand for it.

One of the applicants for this house rang me prior to viewing it several times. She was SO RUDE on the phone. She was “aggressive” (oh dear can of worms), demanding, and pushy. I thought (in advance of the property viewing) “no way am I giving it to her, she’ll be a horrible demanding tenant”.

My business partner (and actual partner lol) was the one who carried out the viewings. He is Jamaican. He came back from a day of showing this house to tell me about all the applicants and said “I want us to give it to that woman. Hear me out. She’s our tenant”. I thought “shut your face” . He said that he too had found her really rude at first, but that she had this adorable daughter and was the most doting and adorable parent and lovely person. When he got to speaking to her he realised she was Nigerian; Yoruba Nigerian (I actually now have a really close Yoruba Nigerian male friend now who could give you all the knowledge). He explained that this lady was really nervous about finding a home for her and her daughter and that she’d been continually rejected (big surprise) by other landlords [I could have told her why - she would have said it was “racism” - which it was but not for the reasons she believed] and her apparent rudeness was nerves and this was culturally how Yoruba Nigerians expressed themselves when stressed (I know I sound like a white “Becky” in this explanation but I’m typing and it’s quite hard to put across in a message forum).

Long story short, I listened to my partner and gave in. She is the most beautiful tenant. I was interpreting her nerves as rudeness.

My point is, white people often get called racist when they receive behaviour as “unacceptable” by their standards. And POC call out white people as being racist for not understanding what they are trying to communicate.

I love a black man. Like he is me. I am ashamed to say racism matters more to me since I am in a relationship with a POC because it feels like all of a sudden I (my guy) is the target of offence. And yet I would have still dismissed this person as being rude (she was by “English” standards).

Racism is so real. I’m blonde and have never struggled. Being with a black man I’ve been trailed by the police, tutted at by old men on trains being next to him and watch the shift in how the world views me being beside him once my “access all areas pass” has been taken away.

I think CB IS aggressive. Listen to her podcast lol. She is! But I also think she’s experienced racism. I don’t think we have enough info based on what MOD typed to decide if she is racist or right or both. Everything is grey! Everything needs balance.

 

[Wetmyplants]

View attachment 56463
This is the alarming message I received when I pointed out kalechis behaviour to a insta mummy advocating her reinstatement on Instagram. It's prejudice not racism.... So kalechis behaviour is apparently acceptable.....

I was called a white piece of shit by some girls at school once (for no apparent reason other than walking past them). That was racism pure and simple.

 

[judsmum]

How DO we describe WOC who ARE aggressive? Because, there are black women who are aggressive with no correlation to their race. They are just aggressive (in the interest of fairness of course there are white and asian women with the same temperament) but if we are unable to call them such then how do we define that character trait?

 

[Squirrelfriend]

I think it’s becoming apparent that we are no longer able to call out anything anymore . If it involves a marginalised group of people it’s best to avoid saying anything on the public domain . I’d love to elaborate more but it turns into a shit show . MOD has learned the hard way .

 

[judsmum]

I think it’s becoming apparent that we are no longer able to call out anything anymore . If it involves a marginalised group of people it’s best to avoid saying anything on the public domain . I’d love to elaborate more but it turns into a shit show . MOD has learned the hard way .

I agree entirely with this. Although a completely and utterly different ball game entirely from insta-wankers the reports into the Rotherham grooming gangs (and Rochdale etc) looked at why no one shone a light onto the perpetrators earlier although they knew who they were and in many cases differing authorities were frightened to highlight who the perpetrators were because of their race and the backlash that would cause. They should have been called out on it right from the get go but they were allowed to get away with grooming and raping 1400 girls for many reasons including because no-one dared to shine a spotlight on the actions of a group of men from a particular race.
Anyway, back to the SODs!

 

[FannyPannyBananny]

View attachment 56463
This is the alarming message I received when I pointed out kalechis behaviour to a insta mummy advocating her reinstatement on Instagram. It's prejudice not racism.... So kalechis behaviour is apparently acceptable.....


MOD edit, moving this to a new topic so people can debate it as most on the thread have said they don't believe the original account the thread was on was racist.

This is the problem though, right? POC can say whatever they like about white people because we are all racists pieces of shit and racism against white people isn't a real thing. They are permitted to generalize about white people and say nasty ass shit, but as soon as a white persons says that someone is being aggressive, even when are actually are being aggressive, it's racist. Surely, the way to change the world isn't to start by shitting all over it. If you want to engage with white people and ask them to be advocates you don't start out by insulting everything about them. There are boatloads of white people going to bat every fucking day for POC because they truly care about changing the world around them. But they're not on their instagram soapbox shouting about it so we're all pieces of shit white trash. Fuck right off. Advocates don't shout about their advocacy, they just plug along trying to make a difference. All of these instahuns, regardless of color, are just in this for the likes/ego and the cash/freebies. They give no shits about the world around them, Bandwagon mentatlity.

 

[jewelkitty]

Correct me if I'm wrong but when people say racism against white people doesn't exist, they back that up with there not being any institutional/systemic racism against white people. But isn't that just a type of racism? Racism definition: ''prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.'' Black people sure as hell can believe they are better than white people, and the definition doesn't mention systems or institutions.

Also, white people may benefit most in some western counties but not in other non-western countries. Do these people still argue racism against white people doesn't exist in these countries where white people don't hold the power? I'm genuinely curious here, not trying to start any fights.

 

[SilverSpoonNotIncluded]

White privilege is a thing - it means my life isn’t harder purely because of the colour of my skin. What it doesn’t mean is that I’ve never had a bad thing happen to me and life is easy and I’ve never had to work for anything. There are POC who are more well off than me, are better educated BUT I still have white privilege because my skin colour doesn’t make my life harder, I don’t have racism to contend with.

 

[Foobar]

When did dismiss anyone's fears as trivial? She hasn't minimised racism at all. Well not as far as the posts on here go. Her comment was no way an attack on w.o.c it was a comment about one person in general. I can't believe we are back to this again. She doesn't deserve to lose her job over a comment she made about one person. That wasn't even racist and she's not a danger to expectant mothers from different races. To imply that she is or that she doesn't care is horrendous, especially when your opinion sounds like it's based on hearsay and rumours.

I can’t believe we’re back to the ‘it wasn’t racist’ again. Even if the rest of what people are saying about how MOD might feel is conjecture, a white woman saying a black woman always brings it ‘back to race’ as if it’s a choice she gets to make about her life experience as a black woman is racist. MOD would have no idea what it’s like to be a POC so she can’t say something to trivialise someone’s experiences and imply the person is exaggerating what they feel.

 

[QueenBW]

What do you propose white people do though? They will never be black, they will never completely understand. Education is an ongoing process and people get things wrong, is it better to stay quiet? I don’t think people can win in this situation. If you stay quiet or speak up. How do you ‘do better’ and avoid mistakes In a process of education?
I’m not being rhetorical, I’m genuinely asking

I think that as white people it is our duty to educate ourselves on racism and white supremacy without seeking kudos or praise for doing it, because it is truly the bare minimum we should be doing. What was Tanya's goal with the post? It wasn't educational. She wasn't sharing resources, books, movies, podcasts. She wasn't shining the spotlight on a Black person's platform or raising their voice. She was all ME ME ME ME. It was performative anti-racism, virtue signalling "oh, see how good I am? Even in my dreams I'm a good person!"

IMHO, the way to "do better" is to do the work, quietly, without advertising how good we are doing in search of applause for having basic human decency and if you do want to share something, ask yourself what the goal of that post is, why is it good to share it? Are you sharing a campaign? Ok, go ahead. Is it a great book? Post it! Is about your own outrage and how unbelievable you find racism and how your bleeding heart aches? Save it, because Black people themselves have said they find it exhausting to be dealing with our "OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS HAPPENS" bursts since they just show our privileged little selves for what we are.

Also, we need to avoid the white savior trope like the plague, which Tanya also had in her dream. SHE was standing up for Black people even in front of a Black person!!! Give this girl an OBE already, please...

 

[littlepup]

sorry just to add my two cents on the racism discussion. i don't think we should ever defend a white person for 'trying their best' - we live in a institutionally racist world and their best just isn't good enough. if she had learnt anything throughout this time then she'd realise how bad that dream post was. as someone said her speaking was more important than the person's lived experience AND IT WAS PERFORMATIVE EVEN IN HER DREAM, AND THEN SHE POSTED TO EVERYONE ON HER INSTAGRAM THAT SHE DREAMS ABOUT TRYING TO BE BETTER. FUCK YOU TANYA DO BETTER.
I'm sick of white people getting away with everything cause 'they don't know enough' - they live in a system that (especially her) constantly benefits and profits off of the backs of black people. she's had plenty of time to educate herself. she was posting about BLM two months ago!!!!!!!!!

What do you propose white people do though? They will never be black, they will never completely understand. Education is an ongoing process and people get things wrong, is it better to stay quiet? I don’t think people can win in this situation. If you stay quiet or speak up. How do you ‘do better’ and avoid mistakes In a process of education?
I’m not being rhetorical, I’m genuinely asking

 

[bobby768]

sorry just to add my two cents on the racism discussion. i don't think we should ever defend a white person for 'trying their best' - we live in a institutionally racist world and their best just isn't good enough. if she had learnt anything throughout this time then she'd realise how bad that dream post was. as someone said her speaking was more important than the person's lived experience AND IT WAS PERFORMATIVE EVEN IN HER DREAM, AND THEN SHE POSTED TO EVERYONE ON HER INSTAGRAM THAT SHE DREAMS ABOUT TRYING TO BE BETTER. FUCK YOU TANYA DO BETTER.
I'm sick of white people getting away with everything cause 'they don't know enough' - they live in a system that (especially her) constantly benefits and profits off of the backs of black people. she's had plenty of time to educate herself. she was posting about BLM two months ago!!!!!!!!!

 

[faceface]

How DO we describe WOC who ARE aggressive? Because, there are black women who are aggressive with no correlation to their race. They are just aggressive (in the interest of fairness of course there are white and asian women with the same temperament) but if we are unable to call them such then how do we define that character trait?

I am sorry but I am just going to stick to the word 'agressive'. Period. If someone is behaving in an agressive way they are just that.

 

[Foobar]

How DO we describe WOC who ARE aggressive? Because, there are black women who are aggressive with no correlation to their race. They are just aggressive (in the interest of fairness of course there are white and asian women with the same temperament) but if we are unable to call them such then how do we define that character trait?

If you look at the context she’s saying alongside the implication that CB was using her race as a weapon. The ‘angry black woman’ stereotype is pervasive and I think the reason the aggressive comment was viewed as racist. The main ref to her being aggressive was her reaction to her child’s experience of racism no? I can understand that making someone very upset. That anger could come from a life experience that a white person wouldn’t understand, maybe we should be worrying and thinking about that rather than worrying we don’t get to call someone aggressive when we want.

 

[Foobar]

But what’s being said here repeatedly is exactly what MOD said. That POC use their race as a weapon so you can’t say anything. But all I’m trying to stress is you can’t necessarily comment on someone’s feelings/reactions when you’ve never had to experience things from their perspective. And not to be surprised if they find it hurtful and prejudiced.

Yup, always been pretty much a one way street that one. Avoid at all costs.

I can’t understand this woe is me attitude to having to think about what you say vs the institutionalised and pervasive racism that people have to suffer in pretty much all aspects of life. It’s been a ‘one way street’ for them most of the time.

 

[Baby Giraffe]

Good god, are we still going round in circles on this? I can only speak from a UK perspective as this is where I have lived all my life but as a woman I have regularly experienced bias from men who have a greater level of natural privilege than I do just because of the patriarchal society that we live in. However as a white woman, I don't also suffer from the ingrained racism that black people in this country face and therefore start naturally ahead on the start line from my black sister. Who has the best start in life in other ways (education, parenting, money etc) isn't relevant to this, you can be a step back on something back a step forward elsewhere. Yes, of course somebody can make rude remarks or treat you differently if you are white, have ginger hair, are short, fat or whatever but that isn't the same as racism and doesn't have that ingrained history. Not saying it's acceptable but it's a totally different thing. Wanting an organisation to reflect the society that it operates in is not racist or sexist as they already have a large majority of employees causing that bias and making it much harder for them to support the community accordingly, it's simply a balancing exercise and hopefully will improve things in the long term. I read a quote the other day along the lines of "having white privilege doesn't make your life easy, but understanding it can make you realise why some people's lives are harder than they should be" which really resonated with me. In the UK I am at an advantage by being white, that doesn't mean that everybody will favour me, of course not and it doesn't mean that I can't have challenges in other areas but I don't see how this is remotely a difficult thing to understand. I fully appreciate that there are people on this thread who are closed to any other views, despite many many studies that show this to be true so not sure what the point is in this thread other than for certain individuals to spout their usual nonsense.

 

[LauraLloyd]

That’s a bit aggressive but in all seriousness you can say what you want, but just don’t be surprised if people might take it the wrong way.

Definitely. By the same token if you choose to threaten people with a shocking level of violence then you can't be surprised if people tend to call you aggressive.

 

[Aboveallelse]

This is the problem though, right? POC can say whatever they like about white people because we are all racists pieces of shit and racism against white people isn't a real thing. They are permitted to generalize about white people and say nasty ass shit, but as soon as a white persons says that someone is being aggressive, even when are actually are being aggressive, it's racist. Surely, the way to change the world isn't to start by shitting all over it. If you want to engage with white people and ask them to be advocates you don't start out by insulting everything about them. There are boatloads of white people going to bat every fucking day for POC because they truly care about changing the world around them. But they're not on their instagram soapbox shouting about it so we're all pieces of shit white trash. Fuck right off. Advocates don't shout about their advocacy, they just plug along trying to make a difference. All of these instahuns, regardless of color, are just in this for the likes/ego and the cash/freebies. They give no shits about the world around them, Bandwagon mentatlity.

I was absolutely shocked by her blanket statement "Racism against white people doesn't exist" I'm a poc. Mods comment was bitchy but not racist. The insta wannabes are so short sighted. It makes a mockery of real racism and prejudice.