The Royal Family

[suspecrobot]

Really enjoying this thread, I'm not a monarchist at all but the gossip is fascinating and I love the history side of things.

History is (or was) written by men so royal women in times past got a very bad deal, I think. Particularly Matilda - sent off to another country v young to be married to a much older man. Her 1st husband died and she was widowed young then her father remarried her to someone she hated. Also mother in law to Eleanor of Aquitaine. Imagine those two together!

I know a few folk have pondered on whether or not Elizabeth 1st was actually a virgin and why she didn't get married. I imagine her experiences as a child and young woman put her off for life - not to mention she probably had no intention of sharing power with any husband!

Elizabeth’s courtiers were fine with her not marrying at first. Most of them had ambitions either to marry her themselves or to be her confidante and adviser. I think she had no intention to marry. What would be in it for her? She would have been completely subjugated to her husband. Unlike her father she didn’t get obsessed with continuing her bloodline.

Once she got past child-bearing age, the courtiers started to panic a bit. What would happen when she died? No obvious heir, lots of uncertainty etc etc.

 

[Vanillaco]

So here goes for gossip well what is conspiracies etc I’ve heard over the years, be nice to have a bit of a discussion on them....

princess Margaret secret love child.
Queen mum actually being the family cooks daughter after her dad had an affair with the cook
Edward the 8th sitting the war out waiting for hitler to invade the uk and then take the throne back....hence why he was sent to the Caribbean.
Prince Andrew being lord porchesters child.
The duke of Kent...can’t remember his name, the one killed during ww2 on a flight carrying a German high ranking officer.
Prince Williams affair with rose chomoldley
The queen mother ignoring her mentally unstable sister.
Edward the 8th being bisexual

I’m sure there’s more but can’t think at the moment.

I thought Hitler was relying on Edward viii remaining King and that's why he was so confident with his expansionist programme in the first place. The Wallis Simpson thing was a front and he was encouraged to abdicate for her when she didnt want to marry him in the first place. They were openly nazi sympathisers and it's just too much like luck that he abdicated.
I think Will did have an affair with Rose whatserface. It's been published everywhere but here and he has litigation all over the place over the story.

Elizabeth’s courtiers were fine with her not marrying at first. Most of them had ambitions either to marry her themselves or to be her confidante and adviser. I think she had no intention to marry. What would be in it for her? She would have been completely subjugated to her husband. Unlike her father she didn’t get obsessed with continuing her bloodline.

Once she got past child-bearing age, the courtiers started to panic a bit. What would happen when she died? No obvious heir, lots of uncertainty etc etc.

I agree. She was happy having affairs and had many lovers allegedly ( some married). If she had married she would have had to share her throne. I dont believe she thought she was a weak and feeble woman.
Iread somewhere that there were rumours on the street that Henry had Edward cut from Jane Seymour to save his son and he had a reputation as a wife killer ( not just Anne and Kathryn but Catherine of Aragon and Jane too) I just thought it's funny that all those years ago with no internet there were still salacious gossip about the Royals! Worse than they have to put up with today

Elizabeth’s courtiers were fine with her not marrying at first. Most of them had ambitions either to marry her themselves or to be her confidante and adviser. I think she had no intention to marry. What would be in it for her? She would have been completely subjugated to her husband. Unlike her father she didn’t get obsessed with continuing her bloodline.

Once she got past child-bearing age, the courtiers started to panic a bit. What would happen when she died? No obvious heir, lots of uncertainty etc etc.

I agree. She was happy having affairs and had many lovers allegedly ( some married). If she had married she would have had to share her throne. I dont believe she thought she was a weak and feeble woman.
Iread somewhere that there were rumours on the street that Henry had Edward cut from Jane Seymour to save his son and he had a reputation as a wife killer ( not just Anne and Kathryn but Catherine of Aragon and Jane too) I just thought it's funny that all those years ago with no internet there were still salacious gossip about the Royals! Worse than they have to put up with today

 

[Blurp]

Iread somewhere that there were rumours on the street that Henry had Edward cut from Jane Seymour to save his son and he had a reputation as a wife killer ( not just Anne and Kathryn but Catherine of Aragon and Jane too) I just thought it's funny that all those years ago with no internet there were still salacious gossip about the Royals! Worse than they have to put up with today

Certainly there are ballads to that effect but she survived the birth for twelve days before dying, whether of infection, embolism or whatever. It was apparently a long labour of over two days so probably some damage was done, but she wouldn't have survived a caesarean.

 

[vikka]

There were two plans re Ed VIII: Him remaining on the throne, Hitler taking over Britain and Ed staying king.
When Ed was forced to abdicate (Wallis not at all being the reason, the Hitler bit partly and mostly Ed's ideas and sympathies for the working class and other "unacceptable non-traditional" things) there was the 2nd plan: Hitler taking over Britain and putting Ed back on the throne.

Most of the upper classes were Nazi sympathizers, when plans of Hitler taking over Britain were uncovered and Ed being supportive of those, that's when the establishment panicked and set in motion Ed's abdication, but the establishment was side-eyeing Ed since he was prince of Wales and more so when he became king and dared to shake hands with the great unwashed, be concerned about workers' living conditions and other ridiculous ideas like those.

Wallis never wanted to marry Ed and never wanted to divorce Mr Simpson, the plot was to gain entry into the upper class and other niceties by Wallis being Ed's mistress. She was forced to marry him when he abdicated "for her", wasn't for her, that was the PR spin, the establishment wasn't very bothered about Wallis. But as usual history and the men who were in charge blamed a woman and the woman's reputation suffers to this day.

On top of that Liz the queen mum and Liz II crapped on Wallis for "David abdicating for that woman", even though they knew it wasn't true esp queen mum the old crone. The queen mum even collaborated with the establishment and it is long assumed she had eyes on David (Ed) herself, kept declining Bertie's (George's) proposals in hopes David would "see her", wasn't happening so she "settled for second best". When the opportunity came she was all for it.

Some very few women don't show in pregnancy and even keep having their periods (or mistake spotting for light periods) or have irregular periods and so never notice they're pregnant, that's where the show and stories "I didn't know I was pregnant" come from! Some crazy cases were women didn't know, continue partying, drinking, wearing skinny jeans and baby's fine! But those are exceptions.
Some women never show, because the baby is positioned in such a way, somehow around the spine or something like that.

I don't buy the "Margaret had a secret child" conspiracy, just like I don't buy the "Charles and Diana had a secret daughter" or "Charles and Diana had a secret child before marriage" (when the F?) or the "Charles and Camilla had a secret love child" stories.
Margaret could've disappeared and given birth, heck it's not like today's top of the list royals are seen that regularly, then it was even easier. But had she given birth, we'd absolutely know more, you can't keep such a secret and someone always knows something at the palace and staff wasn't required to sign NDAs back then. It would've leaked by now.

I also like Suzannah Lipscomb! There are many great female historians!

 

[Blurp]

The government were also worried about Edward VIII because all the secret and sensitive papers in his red box would come back with drink spills and glass marks on them after being left lying around the house during his wild parties. He was good at the sound bites ("something must be done!") but not actually doing anything. His sympathy for the working classes stopped at actually speaking to anyone about it. He was an entitled idiot who lacked the sense of duty that his brothers had; you can tell that from his whinges during the war years. US spies said that all he did was moan about his own situation and what he could get out anything. George V was said to have hoped in his last years that his eldest son would never marry and have children.

 

[Vanillaco]

Certainly there are ballads to that effect but she survived the birth for twelve days before dying, whether of infection, embolism or whatever. It was apparently a long labour of over two days so probably some damage was done, but she wouldn't have survived a caesarean.

Yeah childbirth was quite often a death sentence until fairly recently and still is in some places. I doubt Meghan Markle is an evil child stealing witch either its the enduring Roysl gossipnthats interesting. They have certainly rarely been universally revered or loved.

 

[vikka]

The government were also worried about Edward VIII because all the secret and sensitive papers in his red box would come back with drink spills and glass marks on them after being left lying around the house during his wild parties. He was good at the sound bites ("something must be done!") but not actually doing anything. His sympathy for the working classes stopped at actually speaking to anyone about it. He was an entitled idiot who lacked the sense of duty that his brothers had; you can tell that from his whinges during the war years. US spies said that all he did was moan about his own situation and what he could get out anything. George V was said to have hoped in his last years that his eldest son would never marry and have children.

This too! Yes, exactly. Though I had to laugh when I read your post, don't know why. But yes he was a moaner and a hedonist and utterly careless with important state papers (and hence secrets).

I just remembered that also people were absolutely appalled when he showed up to golf in "unacceptable attire". His attire then was pretty standard for eg today, actually even more "uppity" than today's, but in line with today's. Regardless, people (the establishment) had a fit.

Hated by the establishment (in part for good reason, undeniably), loved by the people.

Had Wallis and Ed wanted to marry, they could've. They didn't even need any PR spin, the people were in overwhelming favour of their "love".

Same for Margaret and Cpt Townsend, but Margaret would've lost her social standing and that was what was actually unacceptable to her. She was free to marry him (with stipulation of a "cooling off period" whilst he was in Brussels, to see if the feelings would last, the same was a stipulation for Liz & Phil actually, because the family wasn't very keen on Phil), but didn't, to not lose her standing and as it's assumed because her feelings fizzled out.

 

[Jaybtee]

https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/07/usa-demands-prince-andrew-handed-face-questions-epstein-12818677/ Interesting and rightly so - wonder if it will come to anything?

 

[Eirawen]

I have also heard that the Queen Mother was the daughter of her father the Earl of Strathmore's cook and that is why the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, who loathed her,called her cookie. I don't know why she would have been brought up as the Earls' official daughter though usually the offspring of the aristocracy's affairs were swept under the carpet and perhaps some money was paid for the Mothers of the "bastards" to disappear and the child would be brought up in her family.

 

[Norbs]

I have also heard that the Queen Mother was the daughter of her father the Earl of Strathmore's cook and that is why the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, who loathed her,called her cookie. I don't know why she would have been brought up as the Earls' official daughter though usually the offspring of the aristocracy's affairs were swept under the carpet and perhaps some money was paid for the Mothers of the "bastards" to disappear and the child would be brought up in her family.

I thought they called her that because they thought she looked like a cook, ie dowdy, frumpy and with a matronly figure.

 

[Maggiemaynot]

I thought they called her that because they thought she looked like a cook, ie dowdy, frumpy and with a matronly figure.

Yes it seemed to be common knowledge at the time that Wallis called her the fat Scottish cook. New here by the way and loving this thread !!

 

[vikka]

I don't buy the Liz the queen mum being the cook's child conspiracy either. She looks a lot like her own mother actually and indeed, bastards were rarely raised by the aristocratic family.

Wallis & Ed called Liz II "Shirley Temple" and had nicknames for everyone.

Wallis & Ed thought of the queen mum as frumpy indeed. To put it politely.

Literally the only source for the cook story is Lady Colin Campbell, and I know her book's taken as gospel in the Harry & Meg thread, but LCC has never been on the inside of the aristocracy apart from her very brief marriage and she stuck with that name ever since, she's a crook trying to flog her books. She does not have any inside knowledge or is "in" with the crowd.
If that story had truth to it, there'd more claims by more people and not just one sole source and no one's come forward since LCC made the claim. At least usually one claim makes others share who've kept quiet, but nothing here.

Why would the queen mum's parents have 8 or so kids and then on top of that take on the cook's bastard with Bowes-Lyon? LCC says they wanted more kids, but more after 8 or so? I don't think so.
They also had one more after Liz, altogether 10 kids.

French, German, Spanish etc etc middle names are hardly earth-shattering in those circles, considering they have many foreign ancestors. Because the other thing LCC clings to is the queen mum's French middle name "Marguerite". Doesn't take much for bs to grow Another of her middle names is "Angela", maybe she's also the bastard of an Italian or German?

I'm not a fan of the Windsors, but I can't buy just like that into all these "secret child" and "XY's child" stories. They're all ridiculous...

In any case, this is a picture of Cecilia Bowes-Lyon and I have seen more pics of her and every time I think it's the queen mum until I read it's actually her mother

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Cecilia_Bowes-Lyon_from_wedding_portrait_of_Duke_and_Duchess_of_York_%28cropped%29.jpg

Another

https://photos.geni.com/p6/5163/2213/53444836ca40859d/ninacecilie_large.jpg

 

[maytoseptember]

I don’t buy the Princess Margaret love child story any more than I buy this guy’s claim that he’s the love child of Charles and Camilla.

Man claims he is Prince Charles and Camilla Parker-Bowles' love child

Simon Dorante-Day, 53, pictured, was born in Gosport, near Portsmouth, in April 1966, and was adopted when he was 18-months-old by a couple whose own parents worked for the royals.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Norbs]

I don't buy the Liz the queen mum being the cook's child conspiracy either. She looks a lot like her own mother actually and indeed, bastards were rarely raised by the aristocratic family.

Wallis & Ed called Liz II "Shirley Temple" and had nicknames for everyone.

Wallis & Ed thought of the queen mum as frumpy indeed. To put it politely.

Literally the only source for the cook story is Lady Colin Campbell, and I know her book's taken as gospel in the Harry & Meg thread, but LCC has never been on the inside of the aristocracy apart from her very brief marriage and she stuck with that name ever since, she's a crook trying to flog her books. She does not have any inside knowledge or is "in" with the crowd.
If that story had truth to it, there'd more claims by more people and not just one sole source and no one's come forward since LCC made the claim. At least usually one claim makes others share who've kept quiet, but nothing here.

Why would the queen mum's parents have 8 or so kids and then on top of that take on the cook's bastard with Bowes-Lyon? LCC says they wanted more kids, but more after 8 or so? I don't think so.
They also had one more after Liz, altogether 10 kids.

French, German, Spanish etc etc middle names are hardly earth-shattering in those circles, considering they have many foreign ancestors. Because the other thing LCC clings to is the queen mum's French middle name "Marguerite". Doesn't take much for bs to grow Another of her middle names is "Angela", maybe she's also the bastard of an Italian or German?

I'm not a fan of the Windsors, but I can't buy just like that into all these "secret child" and "XY's child" stories. They're all ridiculous...

In any case, this is a picture of Cecilia Bowes-Lyon and I have seen more pics of her and every time I think it's the queen mum until I read it's actually her mother

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Cecilia_Bowes-Lyon_from_wedding_portrait_of_Duke_and_Duchess_of_York_%28cropped%29.jpg

Another

https://photos.geni.com/p6/5163/2213/53444836ca40859d/ninacecilie_large.jpg

Not by everyone. I find it odd that you characterise a whole thread as a single entity.

Like many, I find the outlandish speculation about moon bumps and bastards risible.

 

[vikka]

Not by everyone. I find it odd that you characterise a whole thread as a single entity.

Like many, I find the outlandish speculation about moon bumps and bastards risible.

You're absolutely right and I over-generalized, I only occasionally dip my toe in there and know very well that it's not literally everyone, but the loudest voices do (or so it looks) and it makes it seem like it's the whole thread, though I do know better.


All these people claiming to be someone's love child or to know that someone was a bastard are the same as Anna Anderson, who claimed to be Anastasia Romanov, syhte stirrers who know full well they're full of it, but seek the thrill of association and dubious fame. Even then there were doubters who thought she was and those who thought she wasn't Anastasia, until DNA showed the truth and additionally when the bodies were found.

 

[suspecrobot]

Yeah, they called the QM cookie because she was mumsy, was not in the least bit stylish, and could be mistaken for a cook in her day off clothes.

 

[Eirawen]

I thought they called her that because they thought she looked like a cook, ie dowdy, frumpy and with a matronly figure.

Could be both, daughter of a cook who looks like one?

You're absolutely right and I over-generalized, I only occasionally dip my toe in there and know very well that it's not literally everyone, but the loudest voices do (or so it looks) and it makes it seem like it's the whole thread, though I do know better.


All these people claiming to be someone's love child or to know that someone was a bastard are the same as Anna Anderson, who claimed to be Anastasia Romanov, syhte stirrers who know full well they're full of it, but seek the thrill of association and dubious fame. Even then there were doubters who thought she was and those who thought she wasn't Anastasia, until DNA showed the truth and additionally when the bodies were found.

I just find it strange that Elizabeth would have been brought up by the Bowes-Lyon family if she was a servant's daughter. Not really the ahem "done thing".

 

[Blurp]

All these people claiming to be someone's love child or to know that someone was a bastard are the same as Anna Anderson, who claimed to be Anastasia Romanov, syhte stirrers who know full well they're full of it, but seek the thrill of association and dubious fame. Even then there were doubters who thought she was and those who thought she wasn't Anastasia, until DNA showed the truth and additionally when the bodies were found.

There were stories back in 1918 that Anastasia and possibly Alexei had escaped and been subsequently recaptured. They were found in a separate grave from the others and not identified until 2007 so those tales may well have been why the imposters claimed to be Anastasia and Alexei rather than Olga, Tatiana or Maria. Obviously the Romanov family riches may have been a draw as if accepted they could have a claim on anything outside Russia.

 

[suspecrobot]

Forgot that I also love Susannah Lipscombe and Alice Roberts.

I love the way they all follow each other on twitter and instagram.

 

[Boredofgrey]

I’m loving this thread! I’m a secret royalist. Lap up those tit channel 5 documentaries!