Shamima Begum

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I think one of the issues people may have is yes, at 15 you are legally responsible, but let's compare it to another high profile case.

One of the girls who was groomed by the Rochdale gangs was also used by them to get them other girls. She was charged with an offence over this. General consensus seems to class her as a victim.

Thoughts?
It’s a really difficult one. For me I feel like being part of Isis has bigger consequences which sounds totally heartless but looking at it in a very clinical way. Isis has the potential to (and already has) killed thousands upon thousands, destroyed countries, infrastructure, committed rape and tried to commit genocide, had destroyed heritage and historical areas, and spread across the world. I also think it’s harder to rehabilitate someone who was brainwashed so much they ran away to join such a horrendous organisation. There have also been reports she was more involved in the actions than what she’s saying now.
I do think she’s an easier target, I am worried about British fighters who went over there and have come back. What do you do with them? We don’t have the death penalty anymore which wouldn’t work as they would become martyrs, Prevent isn’t as effective as it should be, and speaking out about Islam and the very real issues it has leads to people crying ‘bigot’ or ‘racist’ which shuts up any dialogue.
 
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It’s a really difficult one. For me I feel like being part of Isis has bigger consequences which sounds totally heartless but looking at it in a very clinical way. Isis has the potential to (and already has) killed thousands upon thousands, destroyed countries, infrastructure, committed rape and tried to commit genocide, had destroyed heritage and historical areas, and spread across the world. I also think it’s harder to rehabilitate someone who was brainwashed so much they ran away to join such a horrendous organisation. There have also been reports she was more involved in the actions than what she’s saying now.
I do think she’s an easier target, I am worried about British fighters who went over there and have come back. What do you do with them? We don’t have the death penalty anymore which wouldn’t work as they would become martyrs, Prevent isn’t as effective as it should be, and speaking out about Islam and the very real issues it has leads to people crying ‘bigot’ or ‘racist’ which shuts up any dialogue.
This is the thing, Prevent has just been so criticised (often with reason) but there is also the issue of mps etc not wanting to speak about this issue to the extent that even when there are real issues they aren't dealt with
 
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I think she she should be allowed back. Radicalisation is very real. Yes we can look at it and say "she was 15 and she knew what she was doing" but would we say that to a 15 year old being groomed online.
If she is dangerous surely she is better off here where we know her movements rather than stateless, anywhere in the world.
 
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I think she she should be allowed back. Radicalisation is very real. Yes we can look at it and say "she was 15 and she knew what she was doing" but would we say that to a 15 year old being groomed online.
If she is dangerous surely she is better off here where we know her movements rather than stateless, anywhere in the world.
Err, NO THANKS!

Couldn't give a toss if she stateless and her movements. Her problem, not ours As long as she is away from this country is good enough for me.

I for one do not want to spend a lifetime contributing towards the costs of keeping her here. We have enough spongers as it is without adding another to the list.
 
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Err, NO THANKS!

Couldn't give a toss if she stateless and her movements. Her problem, not ours As long as she is away from this country is good enough for me.

I for one do not want to spend a lifetime contributing towards the costs of keeping her here. We have enough spongers as it is without adding another to the list.
If she's stateless we will have no idea where she is though and what she's up to.
I don't want my taxes paying for MP lunches, Jon Venables, and hs2 but we don't actually have the option of deciding so why everyone is pretending we do is beyond me.
 
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If she's stateless we will have no idea where she is though and what she's up to.
I don't want my taxes paying for MP lunches, Jon Venables, and hs2 but we don't actually have the option of deciding so why everyone is pretending we do is beyond me.
Isn’t she able to claim Bangladeshi citizenship through her father?
 
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I see loads of people saying they don't give a duck, let her rot, not the UK's problem etc. And fair enough, I get the anger directed towards her. But are you lot not also angry at your own government who have failed yet again to intervene, missing the clear signs of radicalisation or grooming? The move to remove her citizenship may well have been in the public interest, but I think you're all kidding yourselves if you don't also think it was also a tactical move to save face for the British state. They Home Office knew removing her citizenship was a controversial move, bound to cause debate and conversation. And they also knew that it would appease a large percentage public, whilst create a very simplistic narrative of a person who decided to turn her back on British values to join a terrorist organisation. If she had been allowed to return to face trial, the evidence that the British government failed to intervene would be made more visible.

I acknowledge that people are still going to tell me that "she made the decision to leave" or whatever, but that's not considering the picture here. I know a lot of people take refuge in the fact that she is made to live as a stateless citizen in a shithole in Syria as you feel that's what a terrorist deserves, but where is the conversation about preventing terrorism? We should be more worried about the fact that counter-terror police did not adequately deal with this situation, social services missed out on several points of intervention and some how a 15-year old girl who was known to authorities was able to board a flight to Turkey from Gatwick airport unquestioned? Honestly, out of this entire story, this is what scares me most.

Sadly, there will always be people attracted to terrorist groups. But how we deter such a problem, and intervene is key to public safety.
 
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On a very basic level, I don't even get how a 15 year old is able to get on a flight alone? I remember when I was that age anyone under 16 had to have a kind of escort on the floght(one of the flight attendants arranged beforehand) or have the rules changed?
 
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Err, NO THANKS!

Couldn't give a toss if she stateless and her movements. Her problem, not ours As long as she is away from this country is good enough for me.

I for one do not want to spend a lifetime contributing towards the costs of keeping her here. We have enough spongers as it is without adding another to the list.
I don't have any strong feelings about whether she comes back to the UK or not. We're already effectively paying to keep her. The Uk has just paid $20 million to build a new prison in NE Syria.

Oh and liked the "we have enough spongers" touch to put your comment in context. Love to the family.

Isn’t she able to claim Bangladeshi citizenship through her father?
No. Bangladesh law is that a child born to Bangladeshi nationals is a citizen at birth. However if you have dual nationality (she was also a British citizen) Bangladeshi citizenship has to be renewed at the age of 21. She didn't. In any case Bangladesh has made it pretty clear that irrespective of what their law says they would simply refuse to accept that she has Bangladeshi citizenship.
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... I think you're all kidding yourselves if you don't also think it was also a tactical move to save face for the British state. They Home Office knew removing her citizenship was a controversial move, bound to cause debate and conversation. And they also knew that it would appease a large percentage public, whilst create a very simplistic narrative of a person who decided to turn her back on British values to join a terrorist organisation. If she had been allowed to return to face trial, the evidence that the British government failed to intervene would be made more visible...
I don't actually think that's the case. The UK pretty much removed the citizenship of anyone that went to Syria where the circumstances allowed it i.e. where the individual had or could apply for citizenship of another country. In fact they pushed the boundaries of the law and in some cases the decisions were overturned on appeal. We just don't hear about those cases in the media very much.
 
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Why is she Bangladesh's problem? She wasn't born there, she wasn't radicalised there?
I was just asking a question in reference to her being stateless, I didn’t know if she could claim Bangladeshi citizenship.
 
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I see loads of people saying they don't give a duck, let her rot, not the UK's problem etc. And fair enough, I get the anger directed towards her. But are you lot not also angry at your own government who have failed yet again to intervene, missing the clear signs of radicalisation or grooming? The move to remove her citizenship may well have been in the public interest, but I think you're all kidding yourselves if you don't also think it was also a tactical move to save face for the British state. They Home Office knew removing her citizenship was a controversial move, bound to cause debate and conversation. And they also knew that it would appease a large percentage public, whilst create a very simplistic narrative of a person who decided to turn her back on British values to join a terrorist organisation. If she had been allowed to return to face trial, the evidence that the British government failed to intervene would be made more visible.

I acknowledge that people are still going to tell me that "she made the decision to leave" or whatever, but that's not considering the picture here. I know a lot of people take refuge in the fact that she is made to live as a stateless citizen in a shithole in Syria as you feel that's what a terrorist deserves, but where is the conversation about preventing terrorism? We should be more worried about the fact that counter-terror police did not adequately deal with this situation, social services missed out on several points of intervention and some how a 15-year old girl who was known to authorities was able to board a flight to Turkey from Gatwick airport unquestioned? Honestly, out of this entire story, this is what scares me most.

Sadly, there will always be people attracted to terrorist groups. But how we deter such a problem, and intervene is key to public safety.
She also sat in a Turkish bus station for 12 hours while we failed to find her and was trafficked in to Syria by a Canadian Operative.
The school were aware the classmate was there, as were the police and they sent a letter home with Shamima, who had already been radicalised. That classroom should have been dismantled immediately and every single person interviewed.

I think as well the fact she was 15 is really important. I made some terrible decisions in my teens. It seems weird that the school girl approached by the refuge for her phone number sparks a riot and 'We must protect our youth' rhetoric whereas a 15 year old radicalised and trafficked deserves all they get.
 
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For me it's simple. She British and therefore our problem. We can't just try and pass this onto Bangladesh.

Criminals including mudrerers and sex offenders who've lived in Canada and Australia since they were toddlers get deported back here regularly. Hell we even took Gary Glitter back, so why is she any different.
 
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I see loads of people saying they don't give a duck, let her rot, not the UK's problem etc. And fair enough, I get the anger directed towards her. But are you lot not also angry at your own government who have failed yet again to intervene, missing the clear signs of radicalisation or grooming? The move to remove her citizenship may well have been in the public interest, but I think you're all kidding yourselves if you don't also think it was also a tactical move to save face for the British state. They Home Office knew removing her citizenship was a controversial move, bound to cause debate and conversation. And they also knew that it would appease a large percentage public, whilst create a very simplistic narrative of a person who decided to turn her back on British values to join a terrorist organisation. If she had been allowed to return to face trial, the evidence that the British government failed to intervene would be made more visible.

I acknowledge that people are still going to tell me that "she made the decision to leave" or whatever, but that's not considering the picture here. I know a lot of people take refuge in the fact that she is made to live as a stateless citizen in a shithole in Syria as you feel that's what a terrorist deserves, but where is the conversation about preventing terrorism? We should be more worried about the fact that counter-terror police did not adequately deal with this situation, social services missed out on several points of intervention and some how a 15-year old girl who was known to authorities was able to board a flight to Turkey from Gatwick airport unquestioned? Honestly, out of this entire story, this is what scares me most.

Sadly, there will always be people attracted to terrorist groups. But how we deter such a problem, and intervene is key to public safety.
That’s the thing they don’t care about public safety, they’d probably set her up as a community peace activist to radicalise the young around her even more 🙄
 
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Horrendously sad story, but the difference between this 'wake up call' and Shamima? Oh, Shamima's brown with parents born abroad. If Rhianan had actually managed anything, would people have said her citizenship should be removed? Doubt it.

If you read that girls story you’ll see her mothers boyfriend has been accused of radicalising her, she was abused from a young age, she was autistic .I don’t think her story mirrors Begums at all, this girl was radicalised at home .
 
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Horrendously sad story, but the difference between this 'wake up call' and Shamima? Oh, Shamima's brown with parents born abroad. If Rhianan had actually managed anything, would people have said her citizenship should be removed? Doubt it.

Jack Letts?

 
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