Shamima Begum

[Polythene Pam]

That’s hardly sympathetic coverage I would say. It also seems to be part of the promo for the BBC podcast - which no, it’s not the most sympathetic thing to her because she clearly struggles to come off as sympathetic

I get the impression that anything other than "hang the bitch" or "let her rot" is considered sympathetic by some.

 

[Ohflogoff]

Exactly. She’s vile. And this country doesn’t need or want her.

It’s a very emotive and difficult situation. Essentially I think as a nation, we need to recognise that she was failed. She is a victim.

I don’t have the answers of where to go from here, but it certainly highlights how young, vulnerable people are able to be radicalised.

Look at the poor victims of the Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal. One of the victims was groomed and then used to groom other young girls into the ring. What she did was wrong, I won’t lose sight of that, but essentially she is a victim of grooming and at the time was exploited.

 

[Lovegin]

I’m annoyed she’s allowed tax payer money to fight this, it should be a no win no fee basis

I’m pleased she’s lost this round

 

[Jen667]

I find myself unable to come down firmly on one side or the other on this one (very unlike me).

I watched the documentary and have seen/read other interviews with her. A big issue (unfairly perhaps) is that she's not likeable. She comes across as surly, rude and unrepentant. She's also clearly lying about her role within the organisation. No way was she simply a normal housewife as she tries to maintain. She may well be traumatised, which is why she comes across so badly. She may well be fearful for her life, which is why she's lying about her role within ISIS.

But she was a kid, and kids do stupid things. I think it seems clear she realised almost immediately that she'd made a terrible mistake but felt trapped. However, if Intelligence say she would continue to be a threat that shouldn't be ignored either.

 

[Polythene Pam]

And just to add weight to the suggestion that deprivation of citizenship is being used as a blanket policy by this government, it's been revealed in The Guardian that in the 9 months between January and September 2022 there were 354 other people who appealed a revocation decision. 75 people won their appeal. It should also be borne in mind that the 2022 Nationality and Borders Act made it even easier for the government to strip people of their British citizenship.

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...tons-fighting-to-hold-on-to-their-citizenship

I don't know how anyone can be unconcerned about this kind of punishment without trial. Our justice system is built on principles like being innocent until proved guilty and open justice and these principles protect us all.

I find it so strange that people in this country are crying out in support for such draconian measures as citizenship being arbitrarily removed (and yes it is arbitrary, as it is literally for the Home Secretary to decide and they do not need to show their working to anyone, they only need to have the support of the PM). This is all happening in the same country that grew a strong anti-lockdown movement and insisted that we leave the EU because it felt oppressed by an organisation it was a contributing member to. It's so bizarre.

This government has slowly been tightening the reigns on protests of any kind that don't suit its agenda. Whose to say my citizenship won't be removed if I show support for BLM or anything else "woke". Dual nationals aren't just brown Muslims. There are thousands (maybe even millions, who knows) of us.

Edited to add: there are 731,316 dual nationals in the UK. I guess there will be more that have a claim to another Nationality also.
---

Watched the BBC interview and the first 7 parts of the podcast.

She's certainly holding back a lot and has been shown to tell quite a few lies. Almost certainly is not being honest with what she was up to for all those years.

She probably should be brought back but there's lots of things that should happen in this world. She probably will be eventually, and I'm sure that'll suit the torys if it's delayed until labour are in power. There seems to be limited unverified reports of her at a training camp. Must be hard to have the evidence to prove either way. There's no doubt been people far more dangerous let into the UK.

She must genuinely want to come back or else she would have left the semi-secure camp. Although she seems to only want to be held to account of joining Isis and then being a stay at home wife.

My overwhelming feeling is so much time and energy is spent on one high profile person. Could be better spent elsewhere.

I have just been listening to the podcast series the Times brought out in 2020. It makes a pretty good case for bringing her home, although it is balanced.
There are escapes every day from the camps. Some women have ended up back in London, others have run off to rejoin isis. Why risk either of those things happening? Even if there isn't sufficient evidence to charge her they could make it a condition of her return that she is monitored for life.
If our security services are so inept that they can't handle that, none of us should feel safe in the UK.

 

[monga]

Some people on this thread are getting a little confused. No one "wants" her back. She "should" come back because she is our responsibility not Bangladesh who have nothing to do with anything.
I don't want her back here. But here is where she should be facing the consequence for actions and not grooming others. Not roaming the world and filing legal claims with public funds.
She's our citizen and our potential terrorist.

Maybe they’ll give her a job on loose woman , a celebrity terrorist is something the UK is definitely missing…Radicalise with Shamima on your lunch break…tbf I think she’d be the perfect replacement for Noleen Colan.

 

[Doc]

Part of redicalisation and grooming is when the victim idealises their perpetrator(s).

But then, you just have a long chain of victims and no accountability, don’t you?

ETA: I think shes our responsibility and we have to deal with her. But I’m not sold on seeing her as a victim.

 

[What's your point]

I hope she is never allowed to return to the UK. I appreciate she was young when she left and maybe she did not fully understand the consequences of her actions.

But she chose to go, she chose to marry and have children with a Jihadi so for me she made her bed she should lie in it.

 

[freda19]

Apart from running off with a jhadi what exactly has she done? do we know?

She made a home life for an evil jihadi cunt and whelped 3 little future jihadis for the world to deal with had they suvived, and showed no remorse whatsoever.Fuck her. I'll save my sympathy for the women and little girls trapped in Kabul who are now helpless taliban fodder.
Her darling weeping teddy-bear-hugging dadda was her tutor. 9 times out of 10 this is learned at the knee. She learned.
This is just one of the jihadi supportive rallies he has been pictured at.

 

[Peter Griffin]

THANK YOU. I've said this SO many times on this thread but people can't seem to look outside their own privilege to see this is not just about this girl. It's about ALL of us who do not tick that WHITE British box. This is 100% about setting a precedent for the future.

What has privilege got anything to do with it? Maybe the people on this thread against Begum just do not have sympathy for a person who stabbed her country in the back. And would much rather have sympathy with the enslaved Yazidi women, beheaded Christians and murdered men, women and children in countries where ISIS ran riot.

 

[Salted Caramel]

I believe him.
View attachment 1979595

That's great that you believe him. The problem with this is, if the government, or any government, go down this line of "oh if you knew what we knew" then ANYTHING goes. I cannot believe people are OK with this.

She can't ever come back here, that's clear. I'd really like to know if thorough reviews have been done as to how multiple children (evenmoreso Muslim girls) left the country, during school term time, without adults, to travel to a country known as a trafficking point to ISIS territory.

Begum is a disgusting individual who deserves no sympathy, but there are bigger issues here and we are being distracted by this when bigger questions need to be answered.

 

[Ls2991]

I am so conflicted about this.

I think what she did was disgusting, but she was so clearly manipulated and brainwashed by the propaganda ISIS release, they aim it at young vulnerable people who feel out of place in the world they live on. And a lot of British Bangladeshi/Pakistani etc people feel this way due to the way they are treated by white British people and the systemic racism that does exist in this country. I would like to make it clear I absolutely do not think that this is an excuse, she betrayed her home country in the worst possible way and I cannot fathom that these people deep down think what they are doing is right.

The thing I can’t get my head around is stripping her of her British citizenship...yes she also has Bangladeshi citezenship but she was born and raised in Britain and therefore brainwashed in Britain. The people of Bangladesh are not ISIS supporters and quite rightly do not want her there either. I don’t know what the right answer is...I hate the thought of her being here because she turned against the country she was born and bred in and if she were to come back here, it would be the very people she was willing to see be killed by ISIS who would be financially supporting her, caring for her in the NHS etc. but at the same time I think to myself, why should Bangladesh be lumped with her? And I can’t imagine the refugee camp will house her forever, so who’s problem does she become?

So yeah completely conflicted, on the one hand I think the decision made was the correct decision but on the other i think why should any other country and have to deal with her

 

[thegirlscout]

She is a risk. How can you ever be sure she has lost those ideals and would overcome what she did and saw? She can stay there.

Like those poor people in Fishmongers Hall. The terrorist was out of prison after serving time relating to terror activities and had convinced authorities he had changed.
Her interviews have no emotion in them, she’s not sorry.

 

[Jawge]

Mixed feelings about this - and as a disclaimer, I don't sympathise with her. However, she was very obviously groomed from a very young age, and I think it's likely that she was heavily indoctrinated by her parents - the idea that religious extremism is anything but a bad thing didn't just spring from nowhere. Now, she's still only 19 and has already had 3 children, 2 of which have died, so I feel the UK should try to help the baby, who is completely innocent.

Revoking citizenship sets a very dangerous precedent, particularly because Javid did it based on public opinion and not on any laws of our democratic society. It makes you wonder what other popular opinions will be used to overturn laws and revoke citizenship - Corbyn's not very popular, shall we take away his citizenship? Obviously an extreme example lol, but now that it's happened it's likely to happen again. We can't be lead by mob rule.

I believe that she should be brought to the UK, placed in custody and tried for treason. The UK is a democracy and everyone has the right to a trial, regardless of what they've done. Also, we don't have the death penalty, which is what leaving her in Syria is tantamount to.

 

[Polythene Pam]

As you say Google is your friend. Here is a useful study of deprivation models, the UK is one of the top countries who use this method, but we are in no way shape of form the only country.

https://files.institutesi.org/Instrumentalising_Citizenship_Global_Trends_Report.pdf

Interesting little list of page 24. The list of countries who DON’T use this method. Among them Russia, China, North Korea, Turkmenistan, Cuba, DRC, Iran, basically the usual suspects.

If you are calling for a policy which aligns with those counties are you sure that you are on the right side of history?

I'm calling for the UK to take responsibility for its own undesirables like France, Spain, the US, Australia, Belgium and the Netherlands are.
Syria is not a dumping ground for Western terrorists.

France repatriates 15 women, 32 children from Syria jihadist camps

France repatriated 15 women and 32 children held in jihadist prison camps in northeastern Syria, the French foreign ministry said Tuesday.

amp.france24.com

Spanish decision shows tide turning on repatriating ISIS brides | Faisal Al Yafai | AW

Given the secrecy, the government has not addressed whether the ECHR decision was a factor.

thearabweekly.com

Belgium repatriates women and children linked to IS group fighters from Syria

Belgium on Tuesday flew back 16 children of Islamic State group jihadists and six mothers with Belgian nationality, from a camp in northeastern Syria, officials said.

www.google.com

Australia clears way for repatriating Isis brides and their children

A secret Australian government intelligence mission to Syria has cleared the way for dozens of Australian wives and children of Islamic State fighters to be rep

www.thetimes.co.uk

The United States Has Repatriated 27 Americans from Syria and Iraq Including Ten Charged with Terrorism-Related Offenses for Their Support to ISIS

This is archived content from the U.S. Department of Justice website. The information here may be outdated and links may no longer function. Please contact [email protected] if you have any questions about the archive site.

www.justice.gov

The Repatriation of Five Women and Eleven Children from Syria: A Turning Point in the Netherlands?

To read this perspective in Dutch, click here.

www.icct.nl

 

[NeverEnough]

I'm usually one for human rights and whatever but after seeing her struggling to say sorry any sympathy I could have ever had for her just disappeared

Sure she was 15 and sure she was probably groomed, but to be groomed by ISIS of all groups... you have to be engaging with some shady stuff to be noticed by someone like that. They're not going to look at a random kid and go 'yeah they look like a great fit for our little group!'

I've seen people mentioning the failure of school/teachers (prevent and what not) and the parents, so honestly I would love to know what happened and how she was groomed step by step out of pure interest

One of the great truths in life I have learned over the years is that any individual or group which claims to be misunderstood (like Shamima) are in fact usually perfectly understood, they just don’t like the consequences of that understanding.

And another is that if you need to start on a campaign to change hearts and minds there is usually an initial reason for that negative perception, and that reason is rarely anything good.

 

[monga]

Shamima Begum ruling sets dangerous precedent, say legal experts | Shamima Begum | The Guardian
(from 2021 just for context)



I see this as such a flawed argument as ultimately the public don't know what danger she poses, if any. It really comes down to "we don't like this person" for the electorate who essentially replace the courts on accountability in this little arrangement

The public don’t need to know that’s why we have intelligence and security personnel.

 

[bunnyboo]

"She has had her citizenship removed without any due process".

This is false. This is just saying she can't come to Britain to defend herself in person as she may be a danger to the public. The issue of citizenship is still ongoing. The UK is a nation of laws the governments actions on Begum were taken to court and in this round they won. The idea that the home secretary just signed a piece of paper revoking citizenship and that was it, is just not true.

All her lawyers and representatives have been able to make her case to the various courts including the Supreme Court. She was not able to attend on security grounds and given that she does not deny her actions, combined with the reports from the intelligence agencies, that sealed her fate (her own doing). These laws/procedures have been in place long before she ever joined ISIS, so any notion she is being treated differently is not valid.

"I'm not saying that she didn't commit a crime, it should be proven that she did beyond any reasonable doubt."

She literally gave a TV interview where she admitted to leaving the country to join ISIS and helped support the caliphate (all of which are crimes which carry hefty prison sentences). Even her dad has been shocked at her lack of remorse. Maybe she could come back to the UK and convince a jury of her peers that she went to Syria to buy timeshares. Any trial at this point would just be a show trial.

With the issue being made stateless, you have missed the point and details of the issue:

1. The UK government cannot legally strip someone of their British citizenship if doing so would leave that individual stateless.

2. The UK government contends that Begum holds, or is eligible for, citizenship of Bangladesh. There have been reports that immigration lawyers confirm this position.

3. The Government of Bangladesh, however, stated that Begum does not hold Bangladeshi citizenship and will not be allowed to enter the country.

4. Bangladeshi law states that children of Bangladeshi parents are automatically dual citizens at birth, but that right lapses at the age of 21. Begum is 19.

And it is point 4 that the government are arguing as to why they can strip her of her citizenship. If she did not have dual citizen status the government would lose on point 1.

"Matters of British citizenship can be of concern to people of colour in the UK. Look at how the British government treated the Windrush generation only a few years ago."

The Windrush scandal was horrible and exposed the UK's flawed immigration system. But I am sure people can understand the difference between Windrush and Begum. Windrush generation were victims, Begum is not.

Look, I don't necessarily disagree you on most of the points that you make. But you have to understand that from an outsider looking in, it seems like the British government was happy to push this problem aside by using a string of complexities and technicalities to claim "Oh not our problem, let Bangladesh deal with it". And that's what your post was demonstrating too. Pushing technicalities over and over again. The point stands that if she is denied access to defend herself in court, there is no fair hearing. She has no access to legal advice where she currently is, they've basically stuck up a barrier intended to leave her at a disadvantage and lessen her chances of her appeal being upheld.

She was born in the UK, raised in the UK and educated in the UK. At the end of the day, she isn't Syria's responsibility and unless they plan to detain her, she is the UK's responsibility and the UK should live up to its responsibility and look to detain her. You can't just claim "oh she could get Bangladeshi citizenship" and wipe your hands of the problem all together. The UK likes to tout itself as one of the leaders of democracy. Ask people about what the UK stands for, you'll get various answers, but amongst them you'll get stuff like "freedom", "democracy", "Rule of Law", "fairness" etc. etc.

You have true monsters sitting in jail in the UK. They have committed crimes of a gross nature; they are guilty of child murder, rape, torture and worse. They were however given due process, a trial and a sentencing. Shamima has received no due process and yet the UK is punishing her. She deserves to be punished and held accountable - but after she is investigated, charged and judged by a jury of her peers. If you don't value due process.. well, fair enough, just be honest about it I guess. But I can tell you it's the difference between utter authoritarianism or worse, and a civilised society. Due process is one of the most important rights we have, but it hasn't been afforded to her. She should be investigated and her culpability established. Was she willing, was she groomed, how did it happen what is the context and at that point society can decide how she should be punished?

This entire affair is just another embarrassment for the UK and honestly the attitude of many spectators has been really disappointing. People refusing to scratch even a small amount below the surface and making up their mind without showing much of an understanding of what may have happened in this instance. Did any of you acknowledge that teachers from her school reported that grooming was happening and they were worried about students being radicalised? And what did the British police and social services do? They largely ignored these reports, allowing the problem to get worse. Why aren't we talking about that either? Maybe, if Shamima was afforded a trial then the failings governmental agencies would be brought into question again... I don't know.

I have zero sympathy for this girl. However, this case has nothing to do with how much sympathy we should have, it's about upholding the vital principle of due process and the rule of law.

I realise we will not come to an agreement on this matter. But respectfully, this case has serious legal ramifications and goes way beyond Shamima Begum.

 

[Emsie]

Some people on this thread are getting a little confused. No one "wants" her back. She "should" come back because she is our responsibility not Bangladesh who have nothing to do with anything.
I don't want her back here. But here is where she should be facing the consequence for actions and not grooming others. Not roaming the world and filing legal claims with public funds.
She's our citizen and our potential terrorist.

 

[bunnyboo]

100% I would have said leave her there to rot. I don't care what colour anyone is. I care about the way people choose to live. We don't know what Shamima was up to over there. She lived with the Egyptian Isis bigshot for 7 month and claims she didn't know his or his wife's name.....bullshit!

I'm confused by your answer, as you bypassed the question of what to do with homegrown terrorists who stay in the UK?

And to those of you still perusing the simplistic narrative that Begum was 100% accountable for her own actions (despite repeated failures to act from the British government), are you not scared or worried about these failures? Maybe it's a grim think to say out loud but fuck it... at least Begum left the UK to join a terrorist organisation that took thousands of innocent lives. If we focus all of our attention on Begum as an individual and not demand answers from the British authorities, who's to say what could happen next? What would you do with a white, ethnically British individual who committed a horrendous act of terror that took the lives of thousands? And I'm talking about a person born to white British parents... you can't ship them off somewhere and strip them of British citizenship. Who's accountable there? What happens in that case? And yes, it's terrifying to think that this could happen but until counter-terror police & social services outline how they are going to improve their services then we are forced to think about these horrific scenarios.