Shamima Begum

[Salted Caramel]

what was very interesting from the podcast which I haven’t seen discussed is that she says she was radicalised by another friend who had ran away first and it sounded like that friend introduced her into the pro-ISIS online space. It’s also why she had the idea that she would be in constant contact with her mum without any problems

I always thought of it as her willingly going to seek out that content and online spaces herself but there is a dynamic when it’s someone you consider to be a close friend, and of course it becomes far far easier to actually land yourself in a very radicalised space

Granted, the way she was talking about the friend still had me a bit unsure of whether she was almost deflecting any sort of criticism, but it seems a bit twisted to be expecting someone who had been radicalised to take responsibility for being radicalised

Absolutely. As the one guy in the documentary tonight said, if Sharmeema hadn't gone to Syria, then Shamina, Kadija and Amira probably wouldn't have either. They were 15/16 years old and had grown up in a western world in the shadow of 9/11 and 7/7. She says in the documentary that she felt "oppressed" and admits that was probably an overreaction, due to being a teenager.

I can't even begin to imagine where your head is at at 15 to "run away from home" to a foreign country that is a warzone.

 

[emm]

Anyone that thinks the government should be able to remove a person's citizen and not give them the ability to appeal (including the legal aid to do so) needs to give their head a wobble.
It starts with people like Shamima Begum, an unlikeable easy target, and could end up being any one of us.
For those of us that have dual nationality it's setting a dangerous precedent. She's a British problem whether we like it or not. The British exceptionalism that thinks it should be Bangladesh's problem is insane.

100% this, not jn favour of her at all but a government should never be able to remove a citizen's citizenship . Especially with this government who are taking away our rights to so many things, protests etc

 

[hnoz]

Not really. A lot of criminals are expedited back to their home countries on a daily basis.

Someone being expedited back to their own country is the exact opposite of what people are talking about in this case. The U.K. is her home country.

 

[JoeBloggs]

The thing that annoys me the most is the idea that she was just a child and was making mistakes and that we all made mistakes. Sure - I'm certain we ALL made mistakes at 15 - I look at my 15 year old self and think I was definitely a bit stupid and naive then but my mistakes were more along the lines of occasionally lying about a homework grade or sneaking junk food into my cupboard. NOT joining ISIS. Probably the same for everyone else. I think she knew what she was doing and what evil she was entering into, I just refuse to buy the "just a foolish child" narrative from some.

This is my thoughts, I’m sorry but yes I was immature at 15 but no way did I condone terrorism or murder! I do not buy the she use young as some sort of justification. She is a clever and calculated woman, she is a threat to the UK.

 

[AllSeeingEye123]

https://www.archive.is/oldest/https...m-21-return-UK-fight-British-citizenship.html

Great news. I don't care how old you are if you are against the western way of life you aren't welcome back ever again. She should be lucky she's still alive and not locked up in a prison.

 

[Piff paff puff]

She seems to be saying things she thinks the British public want to hear. We see straight through it. If she was honest she might have a chance. If she said, yes, I was influenced, thought it was exciting, glamorous, grown up, getting attention from adults when I was being ignored and treated like a kid at home. I knew they were killing innocent people before I went there but only realised the horror when i was there in reality.
I don't think she has the intelligence to cause harm in Britain on her own but the problem is she can be used by terrorists, maybe without even fully realising. And maybe she doesn't have the capacity to feel empathy, many people don't. Maybe that's why she didn't care about being a terrorist.
I wouldn't be surprised if some mega lefty stumps up the cash to get her a top lawyer.

 

[Honeytheonions]

She made her bed....

She's disgusting.

 

[Polythene Pam]

What? The rights of an extremist? Yeah, no thanks, don't want to be part of your society. You should go and do some outreach work in the camps and then tell me how innocent they are

Why is there no reaction button?
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From memory (and it's possible that the guidelines have changed since I last looked at them) sentencing for being a member of a proscribed organisation is graded according to the level of involvement.

Unless she was found to be a "prominent" or an "active" member of ISIS I think the guideline is for a range between community service and 4 years imprisonment with the starting point being 2 years. The guidelines also say that custodial sentences are reserved for the most serious offences.

As you say, add in mitigation due to her age, previous good character, coercion / trafficking etc. and it's possible that even if found guilty she wouldn't spend any time in prison.

I don't disagree what you say about any sanctions being the responsibility of a court not the government.

So basically we are left with a position where if your crimes aren't sufficiently bad for you to be imprisoned the government can just revoke your citizenship. That is scary.

No one is saying classified security information should be shared but clearly whatever they have isn't actually that bad. If it was, they'd prosecute her.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, she's more of a threat in Syria than she is here. When (not if) the caliphate starts to regroup she will be right there with nowhere else to turn. It makes zero sense from a national security perspective to leave her free.
Escapes from the camp happen every day. She could easily get to Europe.
If she's a threat lock her up.

 

[cedarpeach]

I think we need to be really careful that we don’t treat her differently because she was a 15 year old girl instead of a 15 year old boy.
Yes, she was radicalised and groomed. So are the many young British men who are radicalised and run off to join isis. We do not show the same levels of empathy towards them. It makes me very nervous how we treat female criminals differently to male criminals. I do not dispute that she was groomed/radicalised. But the fact remains she IS radicalised and likely to be dangerous just as a male member of isis would be.

I still believe she should be brought back to the uk and tried as a british citizen, but she deserves no special dispensation because she was a young woman instead of a young man.

 

[Whatamadworld]

Whenever I see Shamima Begum on tv and feel like I should have some sympathy for her, I cannot help but remember how this young woman described what ISIS did to her, her family and their community. This is just a single case. Nevermind the thousands of others.

 

[bunnyboo]

There is nothing populist about it, the government applied a pre-existing law which has been upheld by various legal channels. The Supreme Court has ruled that it was well within the government’s rights to remove Begum’s citizenship and stop her from returning to the UK.

Yes, the removal of Begum’s citizenship may set a dangerous precedent, we all want restraints on state power, and do not want to open a can of worms. But like anything there are exceptions to the rule, this is a unique case. And I would argue that Begum herself did far more to destroy her citizenship when she joined and swore an oath to a global death cult.

Since (in fact even before) 9/11, hate preachers like Anjem Choudary who has repeatedly called for attacks on the UK has not had his British citizenship stripped. As well as many other Islamic terror group leaders in the UK who were born here and plotted against this country. This alone should tell you what an unprecedented step the government took against Begum.

As for a "wacko" government getting in power and declaring BLM or LGBT groups terrorists .

But you're missing the whole point here; in our judicial systems, there should be no "exceptions to the rule".

She has had her citizenship removed without any due process. What crime has she been charged with? What crime has she been properly tried and convicted of? I'm not saying that she didn't commit a crime, but it should be proven that she did beyond any reasonable doubt. Trials in your country (I'm not British) need to meet certain criteria to be considered fair, one of which is the right for a defendant to be present to answer the charges against them. Until such time as that has happened, it should not be at the whim of a politician as to who is and who is not a citizen. Even then it is questionable that someone’s status should be revocable because it is politically convenient or popular.

The question at hand is really much more than this particular woman's issue too. It is a bigger moral and philosophical question that is being addressed for the first time in the era of Universal Declaration of Human Rights. There are a LOT of concerns in the International Legal Community about what precedent it can set and how, if at all, this precedent can be abused unjustly. We should never applaud a western government (or any government, but let's be honest about standards) revoking citizenship. One of the key human rights tenants is that you may not make individuals stateless. This cannot be overstated. This action by the UK government is the first step into the slide of the loss of confidence in the sanctity of citizenship.

What has privilege got anything to do with it? Maybe the people on this thread against Begum just do not have sympathy for a person who stabbed her country in the back. And would much rather have sympathy with the enslaved Yazidi women, beheaded Christians and murdered men, women and children in countries where ISIS ran riot.

Matters of British citizenship can be of concern to people of colour in the UK. Look at how the British government treated the Windrush generation only a few years ago.

 

[Lulu Goss]

Why is she even getting publicity? At this rate, she will be on Love Island next.
If she has done nothing wrong then why is she begging for forgiveness.

I said the same earlier, why is she being given so much air time?

I saw Sajid Javid say that when he looked at all the details of that had happened, it was a clear cut decision to make to revoke her citizenship. So we don’t necessarily know everything, and I feel pretty confident that if that’s the decision that was made, it was made with the safety of the country in mind.

 

[Thuderfly]

so in your example the person who groomed her, if they are in the U.K, can be prosecuted.
The victim- of grooming or FGM isn’t prosecuted. So your example is either nothing to do SBs situation or just shows she doesn’t fit the profile of prosecution for crimes committed abroad?

I was just trying to say you can he prosecuted for crimes committed abroad.
SB shouldn’t be prosecuted in my opinion because she was groomed and abused as a child.

I don’t know but she looks an arrogant arsehole to me.

I’ve found this thread deeply disturbing and inflammatory.
She was groomed online at 15. Married off to a 27 year old as a child bride and then raped under the pretence of consensual marriage. She was brainwashed as a child.
If she was white, people would have so much more sympathy for her.

 

[PartOfMe]

Posting this as sky news have disabled the comments.

She was ok with beheadings and doesn't regret going there, but once it all went to shit now she wants to come back.

 

[Emsie]

They don’t know if she’s committed a crime she went off radar for 3 yrs, what sentence does terrorist by association carry?

I've no idea, but surely to god with the threats of terrorism in this day and age we should have appropriate legislation in place.
The thing is, we have the right to fair trial with onus on the prosecution to prove guilt, not for the defendant to prove innocence. She went "off the radar" we have no proof of anything other than what she told us. She was a groomed child and is now a groomed, traumatised adult (regardless of whether she identifies with that or not, that's what she is), very naive and doesn't come across as very bright.
It all just doesn't sit well with me. I don't know what the answer is but washing our hands of her seems wrong...

 

[Upintheair83]

I feel she would be a massive security threat, she would be the poster girl of all the British terrorists and she would lap it up.
I certainly don't want to be shopping next to her in tesco, she only changed her narrative when shit hit the fan.

 

[NoseyNebber]

I'm a new member here, originally joined to read about Mrs Hinch, and I've been intrigued by all kinds of threads and being able to discuss my opinion freely is a breathe of fresh air.

It's incredibly sad her baby has died, that said she CHOSE to go there.
Do I feel she was failed by UK government, no, again she made the decision to go there, that and the loss of her babies are because of her choice to leave this country and the care it provides.

I myself lost my son at full term last year, its horrific, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I went into hospital with him alive, I left with my arms empty. The NHS is struggling as it is, and she expected to just waltz back in and take advantage of it, it grinds me something chronic.

 

[NeverEnough]

Odd I thought Shamima was a mighty soldier of the caliphate who didn’t fear dying. In fact she embraced it as paradise awaits. She never expressed such reservations about the death penalty when her compatriot Jihadi John was happily lopping off heads live on t’internet.

Stupid religious nut job and an immense hypocrite to boot. Cry girl cry you have brought this shit upon yourself. Has allah abandoned you? How can she do this to the righteous? Why has she not sent down a heavenly angel to aid you like in the desert robb….sorry Battle of Badr? How can the almighty being allow her warriors to suffer in this way? Is it (yet another) test of faith to show your devotion? Or is it perhaps, that your father and religious teachers have sold you a bit of a lemon?

I know what I think. And may the almighty being strike me down with a bolt of lightening for taking her name in vain.

 

[Moth]

I don't know how anyone can be unconcerned about this kind of punishment without trial. Our justice system is built on principles like being innocent until proved guilty and open justice and these principles protect us all.

I find it so strange that people in this country are crying out in support for such draconian measures as citizenship being arbitrarily removed (and yes it is arbitrary, as it is literally for the Home Secretary to decide and they do not need to show their working to anyone, they only need to have the support of the PM). This is all happening in the same country that grew a strong anti-lockdown movement and insisted that we leave the EU because it felt oppressed by an organisation it was a contributing member to. It's so bizarre.

This government has slowly been tightening the reigns on protests of any kind that don't suit its agenda. Whose to say my citizenship won't be removed if I show support for BLM or anything else "woke". Dual nationals aren't just brown Muslims. There are thousands (maybe even millions, who knows) of us.

Edited to add: there are 731,316 dual nationals in the UK. I guess there will be more that have a claim to another Nationality also.
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I have just been listening to the podcast series the Times brought out in 2020. It makes a pretty good case for bringing her home, although it is balanced.
There are escapes every day from the camps. Some women have ended up back in London, others have run off to rejoin isis. Why risk either of those things happening? Even if there isn't sufficient evidence to charge her they could make it a condition of her return that she is monitored for life.
If our security services are so inept that they can't handle that, none of us should feel safe in the UK.

Not only is this government continuing to plough it's way to authoritarianism but unfortunately it is doing so with the full or at least apathetic support of a substantial section of the population.

Banishment without due process, suppressing the rule of law, banning strikes, banning protests, voter suppression, denying access to justice ... it just goes on and on and some people positively love it ... until it affect them.

 

[OnlyHereForTheLolz]

Aaah yes, the great concern for human rights and national security conspiracy

What? The rights of an extremist? Yeah, no thanks, don't want to be part of your society. You should go and do some outreach work in the camps and then tell me how innocent they are