Real Life Crime and Murder #3

[Merpedy]

I'm rather interested to see how the case turns out regarding Sarah's murder.

It seems to me that the police don't actually have much to go by. They're searching everywhere which leads me to assume that they have tracked the accused's movements and are now checking to see if the accused discarded of any evidence or left DNA. They don't seem to have a cause of death, and while they may have DNA of the accused it may not be enough to turn a jury depending on what the accused claims to have happened.

This all being said, I do not think the suspect planned a perfect crime. I think that the accused got very lucky with the road on which everything presumably happened, and then who knows what actually happened with evidence that seems to be missing.

I think, sadly for some, people should be prepared to hear a verdict they don't want to hear. But that's just me speculating a whole lot.

 

[emm]

I'm rather interested to see how the case turns out regarding Sarah's murder.

It seems to me that the police don't actually have much to go by. They're searching everywhere which leads me to assume that they have tracked the accused's movements and are now checking to see if the accused discarded of any evidence or left DNA. They don't seem to have a cause of death, and while they may have DNA of the accused it may not be enough to turn a jury depending on what the accused claims to have happened.

This all being said, I do not think the suspect planned a perfect crime. I think that the accused got very lucky with the road on which everything presumably happened, and then who knows what actually happened with evidence that seems to be missing.

I think, sadly for some, people should be prepared to hear a verdict they don't want to hear. But that's just me speculating a whole lot.

yeah I agree, the fact he was a police officer means he knew exactly what he was doing, he was just unluckly caught on personal CCTV which I find beyond terrifying

 

[Merpedy]

Oh, also I wonder what people here think of allowing a jury decision of 'not proven' which essentially means that the jury thinks that the accused has committed the crime but simply does not have enough evidence to convict

I'm sort of in two minds about it as it would be something that follows you no matter what - you're not actually 'innocent'. But I suppose the same would go even with a not guilty judgement, you're innocent but I have no doubt that people have their own opinions and I wouldn't be surprised if some employers are very iffy about letting you work there - though obviously discrimination laws should prevent very extreme cases.

 

[emm]

Oh, also I wonder what people here think of allowing a jury decision of 'not proven' which essentially means that the jury thinks that the accused has committed the crime but simply does not have enough evidence to convict

I'm sort of in two minds about it as it would be something that follows you no matter what - you're not actually 'innocent'. But I suppose the same would go even with a not guilty judgement, you're innocent but I have no doubt that people have their own opinions and I wouldn't be surprised if some employers are very iffy about letting you work there - though obviously discrimination laws should prevent very extreme cases.

in that situation would he get his job back? or would he voluntarily quit?

 

[Merpedy]

in that situation would he get his job back? or would he voluntarily quit?

Honestly no clue how it actually works in practice, but I imagine he would quit because... well, bit awkward to be 'that' guy I reckon

 

[Be More Pacific]

Oh, also I wonder what people here think of allowing a jury decision of 'not proven' which essentially means that the jury thinks that the accused has committed the crime but simply does not have enough evidence to convict

I'm sort of in two minds about it as it would be something that follows you no matter what - you're not actually 'innocent'. But I suppose the same would go even with a not guilty judgement, you're innocent but I have no doubt that people have their own opinions and I wouldn't be surprised if some employers are very iffy about letting you work there - though obviously discrimination laws should prevent very extreme cases.

'Not proven' is a Scottish thing but yes, I think it could definitely have some merit if it were used in the rest of the UK.

Not guilty doesn't always mean 'innocent'. In some cases, particularly for example a rape with no witnesses, it sometimes does mean just not proven.

 

[stewpot]

So do the defence lawyers know that you are ‘innocent’ do you have to lie to them or can you say yes I did but I want you to get me off

 

[DinosaursLayEggs]

So do the defence lawyers know that you are ‘innocent’ do you have to lie to them or can you say yes I did but I want you to get me off

Often they’ll try and get the person off on a technicality, rather than trying to prove innocence. So like, they’ll say that a certain process wasn’t followed correctly or something and that it prejudices the jury

 

[Hereforthegigs]

So do the defence lawyers know that you are ‘innocent’ do you have to lie to them or can you say yes I did but I want you to get me off

I always wondered this actually..

 

[TripleC's]

Oh, also I wonder what people here think of allowing a jury decision of 'not proven' which essentially means that the jury thinks that the accused has committed the crime but simply does not have enough evidence to convict

I'm sort of in two minds about it as it would be something that follows you no matter what - you're not actually 'innocent'. But I suppose the same would go even with a not guilty judgement, you're innocent but I have no doubt that people have their own opinions and I wouldn't be surprised if some employers are very iffy about letting you work there - though obviously discrimination laws should prevent very extreme cases.

Yep that's what I think , how do the innocent get their lives back together after a high profile trial, you know you are innocent, the prosecution have gone ahead with a circumstantial trial, where you have just been unlucky to be in a situation that looks bad but you are innocent.
Everyone knows your name and picture and will have formed opinions, you get a not guilty, then what, you can't go back to normal, regardless of the not guilty anyone thinking you did it probably won't change their mind, most times the victims family will never believe you, so how do people get back to normal and where is the compensation for all that time spent on remand and the suffering of going through it all.
Its even worse if you get a guilty and you know you really are innocent, that must be hell on earth.

So do the defence lawyers know that you are ‘innocent’ do you have to lie to them or can you say yes I did but I want you to get me off

Everyone deserves a defence, you can tell them you are guilty and some might not want to take it on, anyone taking it on would therefore know full well you were guilty.
Even then though they might look for the win, any technicality that gets them off , because any not guilty they get adds to their future fees, if you get lots of not guiltys then everyone will want you defending them and it's a case of name your price.

There is a solicitor for the famous who gets them off with parking fines, speeding and other driving offences, because he will go through the fines with a fine tooth comb, any mistake he finds and it gets thrown out, I bet he charges tens of thousands to celebs and the rich because they know he knows every trick in the book.

On the flip side a defence barrister who isn't the best becomes one of the ones you get when you can't afford your own, they will still have passed the Bar , but probably aren't as good at finding mistakes in the prosecution argument

Honestly no clue how it actually works in practice, but I imagine he would quit because... well, bit awkward to be 'that' guy I reckon

I think so as well, especially if it's high profile and takes a long time to get to trial, I dare say if you are innocent you could claim loss of earnings, but would you really want to go back after that,
Some employers might sack you after the arrest , and then it becomes a minefield, I suppose you could sue them for wrongful dismissal

They need to do a tv documentary on this, how the innocent get their lives back together and what they face after a high profile court case, im interested to know now we are chatting about it

I'm not even sure if you can sue for wrongful arrest or time on remand, do you get compensation for your life being put on hold, its all interesting stuff

 

[OoglyBoogly]

Just to change the subject a second, I watched a truly horrific "How I Caught The Killer" episode earlier, about Daniel Rosenthal back in the early 1980s. Basically he murdered his mum with a hacksaw, dismembered her and they never found her body, but they were able to convict him due to evidence. He is also suspected (read almost definitely did it) of bludgeoning his father to death in France. The father's remains were found. They called Daniel Rosenthal "The Mad Scientist" in the press as he did experiments on chickens in his house and the house was an absolute tip when the police went in.

I tried to Google it just now and there is such limited information on the case out there, I wonder if anyone knows of this case?

 

[caz87]

Is anyone familiar with that massive rape/rugby case in Northern Ireland? It’s passed now without charge so presume it’s ok to discuss? The players found not guilty, were a long way from proven innocent. Caused massive unrest in Ireland, protests etc. The men involved I believe, in order to get professional contracts moved to mainland UK, but still have careers, personally I feel they should not have, but in eyes of the law, I guess they should. Anyone else have any feelings on this?

 

[Cubalibra]

Is anyone familiar with that massive rape/rugby case in Northern Ireland? It’s passed now without charge so presume it’s ok to discuss? The players found not guilty, were a long way from proven innocent. Caused massive unrest in Ireland, protests etc. The men involved I believe, in order to get professional contracts moved to mainland UK, but still have careers, personally I feel they should not have, but in eyes of the law, I guess they should. Anyone else have any feelings on this?

I remember that case. The defense made out that she was a promiscuous and drunk. Unfortunately N.Ireland has abit of a backward
View with women and their rights.

 

[Be More Pacific]

Is anyone familiar with that massive rape/rugby case in Northern Ireland? It’s passed now without charge so presume it’s ok to discuss? The players found not guilty, were a long way from proven innocent. Caused massive unrest in Ireland, protests etc. The men involved I believe, in order to get professional contracts moved to mainland UK, but still have careers, personally I feel they should not have, but in eyes of the law, I guess they should. Anyone else have any feelings on this?

It's a hard one because, technically, they were found not guilty but again, far from innocent in my opinion #ibelieveher

Much like that scumbag RAPIST Ched Evans. His idiotic girlfriend, who went on national TV to shame his victim and went on to marry and gave kids with him, is equally as vile.

What I will say is that I have absolutely no doubt that rape at the hands of professional sportsmen happens every weekend in this country. It's just usually covered up because of how much money they have. I truly believe that.

 

[BashmentLady]

Is anyone familiar with that massive rape/rugby case in Northern Ireland? It’s passed now without charge so presume it’s ok to discuss? The players found not guilty, were a long way from proven innocent. Caused massive unrest in Ireland, protests etc. The men involved I believe, in order to get professional contracts moved to mainland UK, but still have careers, personally I feel they should not have, but in eyes of the law, I guess they should. Anyone else have any feelings on this?

One of my strongest feelings about this is that the laws in Northern Ireland regarding the privacy laws of the court room are abhorrent. In the Republic, sex crimes in the courts are "in camera", which despite what the name suggests, means that they are completely private and can not be joined by the public. In the North, however, members of the public were able to attend, and the girl's name became known. I believe she had to leave the country after due to the public shaming.

 

[caz87]

There is a solicitor for the famous who gets them off with parking fines, speeding and other driving offences, because he will go through the fines with a fine tooth comb, any mistake he finds and it gets thrown out, I bet he charges tens of thousands to celebs and the rich because they know he knows every trick in the book.
[/QUOTE]

I’m no police sympathiser (really!) but this is why you need enough of them to ensure they can do their job meticulously when they come across crimes. And actually people with an aptitude for the job. With their tit pay, tit hours and lack of respect by public, never mind sexism and racism within it, who would do it? So no wonder they have to take on any average applicant. The way it is, I can’t imagine how many crimes never see the light of day because reports weren’t written up properly, no internal communication putting 2+2 together etc, to convict in court is terrifyingly rare, you’d almost need to be unlucky to get caught and convicted rather than lucky to get off!

One of my strongest feelings about this is that the laws in Northern Ireland regarding the privacy laws of the court room are abhorrent. In the Republic, sex crimes in the courts are "in camera", which despite what the name suggests, means that they are completely private and can not be joined by the public. In the North, however, members of the public were able to attend, and the girl's name became known. I believe she had to leave the country after due to the public shaming.

Yes I understand her name was public knowledge, the details too, I didn’t want to look out for it, out of respect. The courage it took her to bring to trial and the fact it went to trial to begin with speaks volumes. It, along with many many others really showed the level of respect for women in Ireland, (North and South)

 

[Maxiwill]

Is anyone familiar with that massive rape/rugby case in Northern Ireland? It’s passed now without charge so presume it’s ok to discuss? The players found not guilty, were a long way from proven innocent. Caused massive unrest in Ireland, protests etc. The men involved I believe, in order to get professional contracts moved to mainland UK, but still have careers, personally I feel they should not have, but in eyes of the law, I guess they should. Anyone else have any feelings on this?

It's terrible to say but I had kind of forgotten about this. Didn't this start up the #ibelieveher trend?
I think they had horrible messages in their WhatsApp group chat, real lad banter or whatever you'd call it kind of stuff. Totally disgusting but it goes to show the attitude if some men towards females.

 

[Its_Me]

It's terrible to say but I had kind of forgotten about this. Didn't this start up the #ibelieveher trend?
I think they had horrible messages in their WhatsApp group chat, real lad banter or whatever you'd call it kind of stuff. Totally disgusting but it goes to show the attitude if some men towards females.

Yes I seem to recall something like that re the WhatsApp group. Horrible that they were found not guilty.

 

[caz87]

It's terrible to say but I had kind of forgotten about this. Didn't this start up the #ibelieveher trend?
I think they had horrible messages in their WhatsApp group chat, real lad banter or whatever you'd call it kind of stuff. Totally disgusting but it goes to show the attitude if some men towards females.

For me, it truly highlighted just how easily what they call “locker room banter” can cross over into crimes against women. If I were a mother of sons I would use this case as an example as to why these “bants” are not innocent. Shame they weren’t found guilty to really drive home that message, but I think most people really feel that result was a shock.

 

[watchingyoutube99]

Also, for anyone who likes podcasts and is interested in how police can use the dark web to their advantage and the ethical dilemma behind it, plus interviews with a convicted paedophile, I'd recommend Hunting Warhead.
That being said, the last few episodes of it completely messed me up emotionally so if you're sensitive to that sort of thing you might want to be aware. Other than that it's rather interesting

I started listening to it last week and had to take a break because the next episode was going to be all about ‘Warhead’. I had just finished listening to the episode with the childhood friend person? I couldn’t figure out their relationship but listening to her describe his behavior during a visit just didn’t sit right with me from the beginning.