Racism Discussions

[Pambo]

I'm going to quote myself on a post I made in a racism 'debate' in 2016. The figures may have changed in the interim period and if anyone wants to look them up I'd be interested in the latest stats:

"The Home Office’s Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) reports the following figures: Black and minority ethnic groups, 87,000 victims of racially motivated crimes; 49,000 violent attacks with 4,000 being wounded; white people, 92,000 victims of racially motivated crime, 77,000 violent attacks with 20,000 being wounded.

The Tony Shell Interracial Violence report gave the following confirmed racist murder statistics [figures taken from England and Wales crime statistics]: Totals: White 32; Black 8; Asian 11; Jewish 0; Other 5. Ethnic Communities' Experience of Racist Violence [England and Wales] Actual victims: White 75,912; Black 7,408; Asian 28,634; Jewish 82; Others 10,446."

At that time, according to the Tony Shell report, white people in England and Wales were experiencing racial violence at a rate of ten times that of black citizens and more more than all other ethnicities combined.

Ah, but that's just a reflection of the demographic of the UK some will say. More white folks so a greater representation.

Okay, but if 4% of the population (in England and Wales) is black how do you explain why 4% of the population is responsible for 60% of racial violence and a similar percentage of racially motivated murder, especially if you contend racism is a white-only issue in the UK?

I don’t cite these figures in a negative way but merely as statements of real, reported racial crime. It may be disappointing that those statistics don’t serve the current narrative, but you're either against prejudice, bigotry and racism in all forms or you’re not.

 

[Gloria Rostron]

The Home Office’s Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) reports the following figures: Black and minority ethnic groups, 87,000 victims of racially motivated crimes; 49,000 violent attacks with 4,000 being wounded; white people, 92,000 victims of racially motivated crime, 77,000 violent attacks with 20,000 being wounded.

Thank you for this.

Those who say what people are at an automatic privelege and cannot experience racism need to read these figures.

 

[PartTimeNoseyWitch]

I'm going to quote myself on a post I made in a racism 'debate' in 2016. The figures may have changed in the interim period and if anyone wants to look them up I'd be interested in the latest stats:

"The Home Office’s Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) reports the following figures: Black and minority ethnic groups, 87,000 victims of racially motivated crimes; 49,000 violent attacks with 4,000 being wounded; white people, 92,000 victims of racially motivated crime, 77,000 violent attacks with 20,000 being wounded.

The Tony Shell Interracial Violence report gave the following confirmed racist murder statistics [figures taken from England and Wales crime statistics]: Totals: White 32; Black 8; Asian 11; Jewish 0; Other 5. Ethnic Communities' Experience of Racist Violence [England and Wales] Actual victims: White 75,912; Black 7,408; Asian 28,634; Jewish 82; Others 10,446."

At that time, according to the Tony Shell report, white people in England and Wales were experiencing racial violence at a rate of ten times that of black citizens and more more than all other ethnicities combined.

Ah, but that's just a reflection of the demographic of the UK some will say. More white folks so a greater representation.

Okay, but if 4% of the population (in England and Wales) is black how do you explain why 4% of the population is responsible for 60% of racial violence and a similar percentage of racially motivated murder, especially if you contend racism is a white-only issue in the UK?

I don’t cite these figures in a negative way but merely as statements of real, reported racial crime. It may be disappointing that those statistics don’t serve the current narrative, but you're either against prejudice, bigotry and racism in all forms or you’re not.

So all the “racially motivated violence” against white people was only carried out by Black people? No Asian or ethnic groups did that? That’s what you state later on in your post. How is that measured? How is such specific data collated in regards to this because other studies I have been interested in with race being key haven’t been anywhere near as detailed.

 

[Deeznutslol]

I'm going to quote myself on a post I made in a racism 'debate' in 2016. The figures may have changed in the interim period and if anyone wants to look them up I'd be interested in the latest stats:

"The Home Office’s Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) reports the following figures: Black and minority ethnic groups, 87,000 victims of racially motivated crimes; 49,000 violent attacks with 4,000 being wounded; white people, 92,000 victims of racially motivated crime, 77,000 violent attacks with 20,000 being wounded.

The Tony Shell Interracial Violence report gave the following confirmed racist murder statistics [figures taken from England and Wales crime statistics]: Totals: White 32; Black 8; Asian 11; Jewish 0; Other 5. Ethnic Communities' Experience of Racist Violence [England and Wales] Actual victims: White 75,912; Black 7,408; Asian 28,634; Jewish 82; Others 10,446."

At that time, according to the Tony Shell report, white people in England and Wales were experiencing racial violence at a rate of ten times that of black citizens and more more than all other ethnicities combined.

Ah, but that's just a reflection of the demographic of the UK some will say. More white folks so a greater representation.

Okay, but if 4% of the population (in England and Wales) is black how do you explain why 4% of the population is responsible for 60% of racial violence and a similar percentage of racially motivated murder, especially if you contend racism is a white-only issue in the UK?

I don’t cite these figures in a negative way but merely as statements of real, reported racial crime. It may be disappointing that those statistics don’t serve the current narrative, but you're either against prejudice, bigotry and racism in all forms or you’re not.

Well first of all can we please get a citation for this data? Because according to the home office the total number of hate crimes committed in england and wales 2015/2016 was 62.518, of which 49.419 were racially motivated. So I’m not sure where you’re getting a figure of 179.000 racially motivated hate crimes for just black and white people?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/559319/hate-crime-1516-hosb1116.pdf

Secondly, I don’t know how you’ve found a CSEW home office report for the break down for the number of victims of racial hate crimes per ethnic group for 2016, as the first time information about the numbers of hate crimes per ethnic group was published was in 2021.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8537/CBP-8537.pdf

The reason that the number of white victims of racial hate crimes is so high is because the figure includes foreign born white people who have experienced xenophobic hate crimes.

As the old saying goes, there are 3 types of lies; lies, damned lies and statistics .

 

[PartTimeNoseyWitch]

@Deeznutslol *common sense has entered the chat*

 

[littlepup]

Blindly assuming that black and ethnic minorities are responsible for the racist attacks against white is proving the point that racism exists and people make assumptions about those communities.
Being from a very white area the worst of it you openly see here is between the settled and the travelling communities, both white.

 

[Notorious PIG]

Blindly assuming that black and ethnic minorities are responsible for the racist attacks against white is proving the point that racism exists and people make assumptions about those communities.
Being from a very white area the worst of it you openly see here is between the settled and the travelling communities, both white.

My first assumption when someone is racially attacked is that the attacker is a different race to the victim. I know it’s not always as simple as that and there are exceptions, but most of the time, it’s that way, no?

 

[Pambo]

Well first of all can we please get a citation for this data? Because according to the home office the total number of hate crimes committed in england and wales 2015/2016 was 62.518, of which 49.419 were racially motivated. So I’m not sure where you’re getting a figure of 179.000 racially motivated hate crimes for just black and white people?
View attachment 2136456

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/559319/hate-crime-1516-hosb1116.pdf

Secondly, I don’t know how you’ve found a CSEW home office report for the break down for the number of victims of racial hate crimes per ethnic group for 2016, as the first time information about the numbers of hate crimes per ethnic group was published was in 2021.
View attachment 2136451
View attachment 2136452

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-8537/CBP-8537.pdf

The reason that the number of white victims of racial hate crimes is so high is because the figure includes foreign born white people who have experienced xenophobic hate crimes.

As the old saying goes, there are 3 types of lies; lies, damned lies and statistics .

To answer your first query, the citation is Wikipedia, referencing the CSEW figures collated in 2004: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom#Racist_/_hate_crime

I only recall referencing the article in 2016, not the year of the CSEW report, and I easily found the source article again by Googling the quoted material. I’m sure you could have found it just as easily if you’d cared to.

Secondly, the CSEW report is a crime survey conducted for the Office for National Statistics independent of police statistics, and the two are not the same, hence your confusion. From Wikipedia: “The Home Office asserts that the Crime Survey for England and Wales can provide a better reflection of the true level of crime than police statistics since it includes crimes that have not been reported to, or recorded by, the police.”

The distinction is made in section 1.1 (Statistics) of the House of Commons Hate Crime Statistics document you linked to (you’re quoting from it so I’m assuming you read it).

The table you share shows victims of racial and religious offences but it doesn’t provide data on the offenders’ race. That’s concerning, because if as you say the reason for the high figure of white victims is due to xenophobia, then that’s pertinent information as xenophobia isn’t solely a racial issue, but can be exhibited by anyone who classes themselves simply as British.

Or do you view anyone who isn’t white as not being British and therefore discounted from acts of xenophobia? I can provide a link to the Oxford or Cambridge definition of xenophobia if a citation is needed.

Similarly, religious offences being included in the data further muddies the waters, in my opinion. For instance Jews can be subject to persecution regardless of ethnicity from a multitude of races or religions.

I don’t think that bar chart is particularly edifying in its current form and requires further breakdown/clarification. So I’d agree with the trite assertion that there are “lies, damned lies and statistics” in its case.

And speaking of such, the Office of Statistics report on Hate crime, England and Wales, 2019 to 2020 Section 3.5, Racially and religiously motivated hate crime, Table 3.3., does provide some data on the ethnicity of victims and their number:

White victim percentage of all racially motivated crime is lowest at 0.1% and 13.9%.

The unweighted base figures reveal that’s 91,345 white victims of crime vs 11,036 for all other ethnicities combined. Multiplying the columns by the percentage for reported hate crime (1st column and 3rd), you get figures of 9,135 vs 10,023 for white victims of hate crime and all other ethnicities combined. Assuming all other ethnicities experienced racial hate crime solely from the white populace - and that's a big assumption - the figures are roughly equal.

Around 82% of the UK population is white with 18% belonging to black, Asian, mixed or other ethnic group according to 2021 Census data.

So, as another commenter quite rightly pulled me up on for assuming all racial violence perpetrated against the white population was by blacks, I’ll correct myself by referring to the report above and latest census data, and relate white victims as a percentage of all minorities: half of all reported racially motivated hate crime is perpetrated by a 18% minority population against the majority 82% white population.

That's less than 1/5 of the population being responsible for 1/2 for all reported CSEW racially motivated hate crimes, and that half is against the white population.

 

[littlepup]

half of all reported racially motivated hate crime is perpetrated by a 18% minority population against the majority 82% white population.

Without knowing the race of the perpetrator and the victim you can’t know this surely? It’s more nuanced.
And you need to know more than skin colour, religion and country of birth is a factor.

My first assumption when someone is racially attacked is that the attacker is a different race to the victim. I know it’s not always as simple as that and there are exceptions, but most of the time, it’s that way, no?

Targeting travelling community, Eastern European & other European and white countries, Jewish, targeting black/Asian from other black/Asian countries, mixed heritage relationships, honour crimes are all crimes that can be within their own race.

 

[Pambo]

Without knowing the race of the perpetrator and the victim you can’t know this surely? It’s more nuanced.
And you need to know more than skin colour, religion and country of birth is a factor.
View attachment 2137940


Targeting travelling community, Eastern European & other European and white countries, Jewish, targeting black/Asian from other black/Asian countries, mixed heritage relationships, honour crimes are all crimes that can be within their own race.

No, I can’t know that, and it’s a failing that Deeznutslol’s barchart is just as open to and I made that point. It’s a conflation everyone seems prepared to overlook, provided it can be overlooked in support of the particular argument they want to advance.

For instance in the stacked bar charts you share, the convictions are overwhelmingly White for racially or religiously aggravated hate crime. But that’s racial or religious hate crime not violent or lethal crime (of which that may be a subset and I say 'may' as I don’t want to make that assumption) which was the subject of my original post. The crimes represented in that bar for White could include sectarian insults between white protestants and Catholics (sectarianism in football for instance is a chargeable offence). If it includes xenophobic crimes as per the warning on Deeznutslol’s data set, then it could include instances of insults or assaults between individuals of any of the four nations that make up the UK, never mind outside it.

Similarly, for the other races, it could include instances of clashes between Jews and Muslims, Arabs and Israelis, or whatever other combination. You acknowledge and make that point.

We also don’t know what the data set is comprised of in terms of the crime or its severity as hate crime encompasses a broad spectrum from insult to physical assault.

So either we have to agree that the data I, Deeznutslol and yourself subsequently reference isn’t fit for purpose of the arguments being advanced, or it is.

It's certainly not comparable re the statistics I originally referred to, and the data in my original post does seems fit for purpose (racial violence/lethal crime), however unpalatable that may be.

 

[Pambo]

Following up, trying to find data on interracial violence and homicide doesn’t seem as easy to uncover in 2023 as it was 2016.

This data is from the Office for National Statistics report on Homicide in England and Wales: year ending March 2021, section 10, Appendix tables: homicide in England and Wales, table 30:

On the face of it, you can declare that white homicide is overwhelming committed by white perpetrators.

The per capita figures, however, reveal a different story.

Referring to the 2021 England & Wales Census, there is a population of 48.7 million whites and 2.4 million blacks. That means for every million in the white population, 11.6 are likely to kill another white person and 0.6 to kill a black person. For every million people in the black population 18.3 are likely to kill a white person and 38.3 to kill a black person (67% of black homicides are committed by black murderers according to the figures). That means a white person is almost 31 times more likely to be killed by a black person, as a black person is to be killed by a white person.

See also Statista’s Homicide Rates in England and Wales 2011-2021 By Ethnicity:

Those figures give no indication of a racial element in the murder, purely homicide figures based on the race of the victim and the race of the victim’s convicted suspect.

 

[daydreamer95]

Referring to the 2021 England & Wales Census, there is a population of 48.7 million whites and 2.4 million blacks. That means for every million in the white population, 11.6 are likely to kill another white person and 0.6 to kill a black person. For every million people in the black population 18.3 are likely to kill a white person and 38.3 to kill a black person (67% of black homicides are committed by black murderers according to the figures). That means a white person is almost 31 times more likely to be killed by a black person, as a black person is to be killed by a white person.

Pambo based on the information provided by Reuters in the fact check below how does the US compare to UK?

Fact check: False data on U.S. racial murder rates

Users on social media are sharing an image that features misleading data on black and white murder rates. Based on existing U.S. government data, all the figures are false.

www.reuters.com

 

[Pambo]

Pambo based on the information provided by Reuters in the fact check below how does the US compare to UK?

Fact check: False data on U.S. racial murder rates

Users on social media are sharing an image that features misleading data on black and white murder rates. Based on existing U.S. government data, all the figures are false.

www.reuters.com

If you go by the raw figures supplied in Appendix tables: homicide in England and Wales, table 30 then 86.5% of white murders were committed by white offenders and 6.8% by black offenders. The Reuters article for the U.S. lists 80.7% and 15.5% respectively.

In England and Wales 22.6% of black murders were committed by white offenders and 67.2% by black offenders. The Reuters article lists 8% and 88.9% respectively.

However, the white population in England and Wales is 20.3 times greater than the black population, so the fact that there’s an over representation of white offenders (in every category except black on black homicide) is hardly surprising. Hence employing per capita figures to give a more accurate picture re the ratio of interracial homicide.

If we apply that ratio to the first row of the table 30, we get 563 white offenders and 893 black offenders, which would increase the number of white murder victims to 1,500 for a same-on-same population size. In that scenario, the black population would be responsible for 60% of white homicides, with the white population responsible for 38%.

Applying a similar population ratio reduction on the second row of the table, we’d get 1.5 white offenders and 92 black offenders, decreasing the number of black murder victims to 107.5. Here, the white population is responsible for 1.4% of black homicides and the black population 86%.

U.S. Census Bureau 2020 figures lists the white population of the USA as 75.8% (235.4 million) and black population at 13.8% (46.9 million), so the white population of the U.S. is x5 the black population vs the UK’s x20.3 figure. So to do a like-on-like per capita comparison with the U.S. adjust the UK’s figures accordingly.

 

[daydreamer95]

Thanks @Pambo


9 February 2023 Guardian Headline

Black people four times as likely as white people to be murdered, ONS data shows

New figures for England and Wales show racial disparity among murder victims has worsened over last decade

Black people four times as likely as white people to be murdered, ONS data shows | Race | The Guardian

New figures for England and Wales show racial disparity among murder victims has worsened over last decade

amp.theguardian.com

Above contains link to article published 17 November 2020 Headline

Murder risk in England and Wales much higher for black people

Study shows homicides five times more likely than for white people and up to 24 times in 16-24 age group

Murder risk in England and Wales much higher for black people

Study shows homicides five times more likely than for white people and up to 24 times in 16-24 age group

www.theguardian.com

Latest analysis put the homicide rate for black people at five for every 100,000 people, but it was even higher for black youngsters aged 16-24, who during the last 20 years were 10.6 times more likely to be killed than their white counterparts. Even more alarmingly, that had increased, and in 2018-19 young black people were 24 times more likely to be homicide victims than young white people.

The Cambridge team could not answer exactly why there was such a disparity, but Sherman said there were multiple factors, including the effects of austerity, poverty and racism.

He said: “The massive drop in black victimisation we find from 2001 to 2012 may have been due to police targeting illegal gun ownership by criminal networks, such as Operation Trident in the Met. It is also possible that a variety of changes in policing nationally after 2012 can help explain the rapid increase in black homicide victimisation since then.



Both articles highlight black murder victims with focus on young victims, the article doesn’t mention the percentage of perpetrators who are black above the headline is Race as the topic section so why is this omitted and how can the issue be addressed when it’s unspoken

There are boys and men in the UK who understand that certain areas are no go places for them, they don’t have to be involved in criminal activity themselves to become a target

 

[monga]

There’s some recent statistics in this, from stop n search to prison sentences.

Criminal justice system statistics - Institute of Race Relations

Statistics in context Last updated: 4 May 2024 What the evidence below shows is that a significantly disproportionate number of people from certain racialised communities are affected by police operations and practices such as stop and search and racial profiling (the use of race, ethnicity...

irr.org.uk

 

[Glortard]

White privilege is a myth spread by supporters of critical race theory which is racist dogma which seeks to tar white children as evil simply because of the colour of their skin. Point out to people that support it that in the UK that white pupils are less likely to go to university than black pupils and that's before we get to the chinese, indian and south east asian pupils being the highest percentage to go onto university and therefore get on better in life.

Its lead to absurd situations in the US where lawmakers are talking about 10's billions being given to black people for slavery in the likes of San Francisco despite there never being slaves there. Racism is a grift for a lot of people which is why we have made up concepts like white privilege and micro aggressions with talking heads, book deals and educational positions being given.

 

[Pambo]

Thanks @Pambo


9 February 2023 Guardian Headline

Black people four times as likely as white people to be murdered, ONS data shows

New figures for England and Wales show racial disparity among murder victims has worsened over last decade

Black people four times as likely as white people to be murdered, ONS data shows | Race | The Guardian

New figures for England and Wales show racial disparity among murder victims has worsened over last decade

amp.theguardian.com

Above contains link to article published 17 November 2020 Headline

Murder risk in England and Wales much higher for black people

Study shows homicides five times more likely than for white people and up to 24 times in 16-24 age group

Murder risk in England and Wales much higher for black people

Study shows homicides five times more likely than for white people and up to 24 times in 16-24 age group

www.theguardian.com

Latest analysis put the homicide rate for black people at five for every 100,000 people, but it was even higher for black youngsters aged 16-24, who during the last 20 years were 10.6 times more likely to be killed than their white counterparts. Even more alarmingly, that had increased, and in 2018-19 young black people were 24 times more likely to be homicide victims than young white people.

The Cambridge team could not answer exactly why there was such a disparity, but Sherman said there were multiple factors, including the effects of austerity, poverty and racism.

He said: “The massive drop in black victimisation we find from 2001 to 2012 may have been due to police targeting illegal gun ownership by criminal networks, such as Operation Trident in the Met. It is also possible that a variety of changes in policing nationally after 2012 can help explain the rapid increase in black homicide victimisation since then.



Both articles highlight black murder victims with focus on young victims, the article doesn’t mention the percentage of perpetrators who are black above the headline is Race as the topic section so why is this omitted and how can the issue be addressed when it’s unspoken

There are boys and men in the UK who understand that certain areas are no go places for them, they don’t have to be involved in criminal activity themselves to become a target

I remember that article and The Guardian got blasted for it on social media. As you point out, they left out the pertinent fact that the higher murder rate for the black population was due to intraracial, not interracial, homicide. Yes, black people are more than four times as likely to be murdered as white people, but by other black people.

Speaking of no-go areas, this is an interesting article by Sky News from 2018: Black murder victims and suspects: London v UK.

I've been looking for figures on interracial violence and this is the closest I've found thus far: Hate crime, England and Wales, 2021 to 2022, Statistics on hate crimes recorded by the police, Appendix tables, Appendix Table 7.

Offence 8P is most of interest.

However, without including the religion of the victim, and listing the race and religion of the offender, there’s not much can be concluded from that data, other than the white population is by no means immune.

Take this as anecdotal, but last time I was engaged in this debate in 2016 I remember the relevant figures being far easier to acquire than it is today and it does feel like deliberate obfuscation.

 

[Pambo]

This Sept 2022 report from the Mayor of London’s Office for Policing And Crime makes for grim reading: A Problem Profile of Violence, Gangs And Young People

Some takeaways:

Executive Summary
We see disproportionality across youth violence. Over half of weapon enabled robbery (59%) and homicide (65%) suspects were Black.

Ethnicity
Black victims are more prominent within the data than other ethnicities, with 48% of the recorded victims being described as black. Overall 44% of the victims of teenage violence are black males, with this increasing to 73% when homicides are looked at in isolation. This is higher than for overall homicide offending where 39% of victims are described as being black males.

Age and Ethnicity:
Overall 61% (384) of the accuse are black males.

Robbery, most serious violence and homicide
For weapon enabled robbery over half (56%) of all victims were White, with 59% of suspects recorded as Black.

The majority of homicide victims were male (93%) and Black (61%). 61% of victims of homicide were recorded as Black.

Disproportionality is observed across violence – especially for homicide
Relative to population, there were 19.3 Black homicide suspects relative to 100,000 population in London (based on mid 2021 estimates).

There were also 6.4 Black victims of homicide per 100,000 population.

Repeat robbers are the suspects in 60% of robbery offences
In our violence cohort . . . Black suspects made up the highest proportion of each cohort

Top 10 most prolific offenders
9/10 of the top 10 were Black with 1 being white; 9 were Male.

You know, I get why people wish this weren't so and try and defend it, but pretending it's otherwise isn't going to address the problem.

 

[Ensay]

White privilege is a myth spread by supporters of critical race theory which is racist dogma which seeks to tar white children as evil simply because of the colour of their skin. Point out to people that support it that in the UK that white pupils are less likely to go to university than black pupils and that's before we get to the chinese, indian and south east asian pupils being the highest percentage to go onto university and therefore get on better in life.

Its lead to absurd situations in the US where lawmakers are talking about 10's billions being given to black people for slavery in the likes of San Francisco despite there never being slaves there. Racism is a grift for a lot of people which is why we have made up concepts like white privilege and micro aggressions with talking heads, book deals and educational positions being given.

This is nonsense. No one's saying white children are "evil".

The fact of the matter is that white people are in the majority in the West and, therefore, the balance of power is in their favour. White people can experience prejudice and insults, of course, but they can't experience racism because they hold the cards.

I'm white and I can safely say no one has ever been 'racist' to me. I've seen security guards follow a black guy around a shop - but barely gave me a second glance. Why do they think I'm less of a risk based solely on my skin colour?

When white people try to act like they're poor and downtrodden purely because of their skin colour, it looks silly.

 

[Ingognito.Queen]

White privilege is a myth

What makes you think that?
Where is the evidence to back this up?