Narcissistic and toxic parents #2

[testingonetwothreefoiur]

My mother has always been a terrible friend herself so go figure. In my childhood there were "friends" that became enemies and scapegoated for ridiculous or total non reasons, my mother is the most judgemental, gossipy person I've ever met. She wanted me to invite "Family friends" to my wedding, a couple that came to our house for New Years dinner for decades and she's been bitching about the woman for as long as i can remember. The only relationships she maintains are a handful of siblings and my Golden Child sister and that's because they're totally enmeshed.

I stopped trying to spend time with my mother so long ago that the idea of even wanting to or doing it voluntarily is alien to me. I can think of no worse way to ruin my day than that. One on one time invariably turns into a one-way monologue from her about my sister, or my sick brother, and almost always about some random person who bought an investment property for a specific amount of money that she needs to share with me, or what a relative is doing that is terrible, or who has cancer. She has absolutely no conversation skills.

 

[not_influenced]

This thread is blowing my mind with the responses & similarities to my life and upbringing. I don't want to sound like a parrot repeating myself in each and every comment but the similarities of experiences, upbringings & various family dynamics people are describing is crazy the similarities to my own. I feel I could have written some of the responses on here & find myself nodding along to the comments.

 

[Bettyboo2475]

This thread is blowing my mind with the responses & similarities to my life and upbringing. I don't want to sound like a parrot repeating myself in each and every comment but the similarities of experiences, upbringings & various family dynamics people are describing is crazy the similarities to my own. I feel I could have written some of the responses on here & find myself nodding along to the comments.

I find it a great comfort to of found other people that have been through same things. It's a real source of compassion xx

 

[HitnMiss]

Re lack of trust - this short podcast discusses a mother with a complete lack of empathy for her daughter. It's called Killer Psyche but there's no death in this episode.



The book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents is very good.

I wish none of us had to be here but I am comforted by the comraderie and support found here, so thank you all

 

[Bettyboo2475]

What do people do when they're having a tough time and feeling down about the no contact. I would find it helpful to know what I can do to forget as I constantly ruminate about what if, and if I could do anything different.

 

[griftalo]

What do people do when they're having a tough time and feeling down about the no contact. I would find it helpful to know what I can do to forget as I constantly ruminate about what if, and if I could do anything different.

I saw it as the only way I would survive and keep a good relationship with my children, so I don’t think about what I could do really. It was a case of it’s me or you, witch, and I choose me. That’s not to say I didn’t mourn having an actual loving parent but the two things are different and I had to come to terms with the fact that a loving mother didn’t exist for me. Once you realise and accept not getting that fantasy parent, it gets easier. I wish my life had been different but nothing I could have done or could do would make it any different.

 

[testingonetwothreefoiur]

I saw it as the only way I would survive and keep a good relationship with my children, so I don’t think about what I could do really. It was a case of it’s me or you, witch, and I choose me. That’s not to say I didn’t mourn having an actual loving parent but the two things are different and I had to come to terms with the fact that a loving mother didn’t exist for me. Once you realise and accept not getting that fantasy parent, it gets easier. I wish my life had been different but nothing I could have done or could do would make it any different.

Thanks for sharing this, I relate a lot to the grieving of a loving mother. Covert narcs are a hell of a thing, I believed her narrative of having grown up in a "loving, close family" until I was in my 30s, despite all the compelling evidence to the contrary, because she puts on one hell of an act to the outside world. The grief was rough, but it also opened up my life in the best way.

As someone who hopefully will have a child in the future, I'd love if you could share more about the choice you mentioned here? And how you didn't see it as possible to stay in contact and have a good relationship with your own kids?

 

[Bettyboo2475]

I saw it as the only way I would survive and keep a good relationship with my children, so I don’t think about what I could do really. It was a case of it’s me or you, witch, and I choose me. That’s not to say I didn’t mourn having an actual loving parent but the two things are different and I had to come to terms with the fact that a loving mother didn’t exist for me. Once you realise and accept not getting that fantasy parent, it gets easier. I wish my life had been different but nothing I could have done or could do would make it any different.

Thank you for this. Even though I did the same about 8 years ago, I still suffer with the low feelings about the whole situation. I have 2 boys, 7 and 12 and I've broken the pattern because I wouldn't dream of treating my kids like I was. Without them I honestly don't think i would be here.

 

[griftalo]

Thanks for sharing this, I relate a lot to the grieving of a loving mother. Covert narcs are a hell of a thing, I believed her narrative of having grown up in a "loving, close family" until I was in my 30s, despite all the compelling evidence to the contrary, because she puts on one hell of an act to the outside world. The grief was rough, but it also opened up my life in the best way.

As someone who hopefully will have a child in the future, I'd love if you could share more about the choice you mentioned here? And how you didn't see it as possible to stay in contact and have a good relationship with your own kids?

Because my mother groomed my eldest and massively affected that relationship. Keeping her away from my younger kids was crucial. Having someone undermine you and head duck you constantly is not conducive to maintaining healthy attachment with kids. Basically if a parent fucked you over, they won’t hesitate to do it to your children and weaponise them against you. She wanted to be a foster carer later and I stuck a spanner in the works for that, they probably saw her for the narc she is (I hope) but I do think it can’t have helped her that I told them I don’t have time to be interviewed by them about my childhood as I am too busy trying to run my own home as a single parent with no help. Which was not a word of a lie. This was before I saw sense and cut contact.
---

Thank you for this. Even though I did the same about 8 years ago, I still suffer with the low feelings about the whole situation. I have 2 boys, 7 and 12 and I've broken the pattern because I wouldn't dream of treating my kids like I was. Without them I honestly don't think i would be here.

without my kids I’d have given up too. Hang in there, you did the right thing, and I know it’s hard.

 

[justonemorepage]

Wow all of this resonates with me and my grandmother - she manipulated me into thinking she was an incredible woman. I grew up thinking she loved me, would do anything for me, she came across warm and giving. That was until I became an adult and starting to see her mask slip. She was a completely different person to the one that I remembered from my childhood. Cold, unfeeling, bitter, ruthless, mean, cruel. I saw how she treated both of my parents and I was so upset. She tries to guilt me into having a relationship with her but I struggle since I've seen her true colours. I've gone minimal contact but not no contact. My mum is no contact but my dad still maintains contact as he is her only child and she has no other family. It's tough because I find myself feeling sorry for her at times and then have to remind myself of how she's treated us all. It's so hard. I really feel for you all. The guilt is overwhelming but so is the need for self preservation.

 

[not_influenced]

I'm in the process of going no contact. Whatever the family equivalent of "slow quitting" is with your family is what I'm doing. I've blocked their calls & it's only WhatsApp that comes through to a locked chat and I'm keeping information shared to a minimum as anything I've shared previously is told to my aunt's, uncles & neighbours from my hometown. Even stuff I've said in confidence. I've also being told stuff that my aunt's have told my NM in confidence, that I'm 100% sure they wouldn't want me knowing.

I see how their presence effects me, I'm wound up for days in the lead up to seeing them, I'm on edge & would snap and be short with people in a heartbeat. My stomach is in bits I've severe diarrhea and cramps ahead of meeting them - which now I know is all linked to anxiety and stress

I've invited them to my home, but it's met with criticism that it's only on my terms- kids are at the age where they've activities/matches , so no 10am on a Saturday doesn't suit!! Just for context they are both retired so not as if they are rushing anywhere. My home or my appearance is criticized, would you not cut the grass, would you not change the cushions & freshen the place up, would you not replace those candles, would you not replace those flower beds. My home is fine there no issue with it, it's the perfectionist presentation & not a hair out of place my NP wish to present to society. I grew up in a house I want my children to grow up in a home.

I tried going to their home to "maintain a relationship" & also avoid my home being criticized but the concentration shifts to me, I look tired I look worn out, would i not hoover my car, my hair is very long. I've previously tried to counteract all these by arriving with a clean car, manicuring myself so no comment on my appearance etc- it's EXHAUSTING!! And they will always find something! My shoes will give me fallen arches & my eyes brows are "different".

Everything really only came to light for me when I got i pregnant and had kids, it made me feel a love that I never experienced and I couldn't imagine treating my kids or making my kids feel how I was made feel as a child. I was bet with a belt & a slipper growing up by my NF & swore blind that he would never ever be let near my kids.

Growing up ages 0-10 I thought my childhood was completely normal, but as I hit 12/13 and would go to friend's houses for sleep overs I would find it weird that they all sat for dinner, that they all watched a movie together?? They all went in holidays together ?? What? Ages 13 onwards, my siblings and i were dropped from family holidays! While friends still went away!

Fast forward into my late teens and 20s, I started observe and see what normal was & found myself spending more time in friends houses and boyfriends who had close families and really loved it! I left home and rented in my 20s, but was still caught up in family dynamics, every time my parents argued we were some how involved & made involved in their argument! Which now as a grown adult I see was so wrong!!! I was asked by a therapist once of my favourite/best memory of my childhood and happiness with my parents and I do not have any! Just arguing, walking on egg shells & witnessing arguements shouldn't have been exposed to as a child/teen. Any family occasions over the years I attended and hate & make my excuses to leave early or not attend. Christmas I stopped attending in my 20s & would spend with whatever boyfriends family I was seeing at the time.

Now, my life is my own family and friends & my happiness. Communication is a minimum and my response back is something along the lines of "all good here, kids well, miserable weather out". Family occasions I avoid and usually plan things or say I've something on. It's really been my own sickness & kids sickness over the past 18 months that blew my eyes right open to realise they are so selfish and do not give a tit about me. It's sad. But Ive realised it's not on me!

There have been Alot of tears over the past 18months where I've cried over not having family support & would love someone to come, hug and mind me and tell me everything will be ok. It's hard, but as others have said we are all grieving a relationship that we never had or does not exist. Xx

 

[testingonetwothreefoiur]

Because my mother groomed my eldest and massively affected that relationship. Keeping her away from my younger kids was crucial. Having someone undermine you and head duck you constantly is not conducive to maintaining healthy attachment with kids. Basically if a parent fucked you over, they won’t hesitate to do it to your children and weaponise them against you. She wanted to be a foster carer later and I stuck a spanner in the works for that, they probably saw her for the narc she is (I hope) but I do think it can’t have helped her that I told them I don’t have time to be interviewed by them about my childhood as I am too busy trying to run my own home as a single parent with no help. Which was not a word of a lie. This was before I saw sense and cut contact.
---

That sounds awful and so totally understandable that you would cut off contact given what happened with your eldest. Well done for intervening in your mother's foster care ploy, I'd imagine processes like that are full of narcs trying to get that Mother of the Year supply.

I find the toxic hope of just wanting my parents to be...parents...can catch me in the sneakiest of ways. Even after years of therapy and healing. It catches me sometimes when I imagine having kids, and I know how badly my nmom wants to be a grandmother and I start to think, maybe she'd be a great grandmother. But my knowledge of how narcs operate counter-acts that, yes mom loves babies because they are cute and helpless and can be manipulated, can adore her without challenging her, can give her that supply of Grandmother of the Year status. And they they'll grow up and be dismissed, criticised, abused in the same way. Or her favorite child has a baby that becomes a Golden Grandchild and my kids are invisible the way I was / am.

 

[Peepynose]

That sounds awful and so totally understandable that you would cut off contact given what happened with your eldest. Well done for intervening in your mother's foster care ploy, I'd imagine processes like that are full of narcs trying to get that Mother of the Year supply.

I find the toxic hope of just wanting my parents to be...parents...can catch me in the sneakiest of ways. Even after years of therapy and healing. It catches me sometimes when I imagine having kids, and I know how badly my nmom wants to be a grandmother and I start to think, maybe she'd be a great grandmother. But my knowledge of how narcs operate counter-acts that, yes mom loves babies because they are cute and helpless and can be manipulated, can adore her without challenging her, can give her that supply of Grandmother of the Year status. And they they'll grow up and be dismissed, criticised, abused in the same way. Or her favorite child has a baby that becomes a Golden Grandchild and my kids are invisible the way I was / am.

I really relate to what you say about that feeling of grief creeping up on you when you’re not expecting it. I was at a toddler’s birthday party and I came home feeling desperately sad. Seeing other grandparents be so natural around their kids, just doing every day things like picking them up and sorting their little plate of food out and picking things they like. It hit me that my kids have never and will never have that from my parents. To be honest like lots of you have shared on here having kids was a huge catalyst for me. I’d never understood them and feeling the love I have for my children made me understand them even less.

I’m no contact now with both of my parents (they divorced when I was young so the estrangements happened at different times) and whilst I grieve having a supportive relationship in my life but I don’t miss them as they were never able to give me the kind of relationship I wanted and needed with them. I think about the sense of peace I have now being no contact and that helps me to know I’ve done the right thing.
Thank you to everyone who’s shared on this thread, it often feels like you’re the only one in this situation. Hearing your stories shows us we are not alone.

 

[Bettyboo2475]

I really relate to what you say about that feeling of grief creeping up on you when you’re not expecting it. I was at a toddler’s birthday party and I came home feeling desperately sad. Seeing other grandparents be so natural around their kids, just doing every day things like picking them up and sorting their little plate of food out and picking things they like. It hit me that my kids have never and will never have that from my parents. To be honest like lots of you have shared on here having kids was a huge catalyst for me. I’d never understood them and feeling the love I have for my children made me understand them even less.

I’m no contact now with both of my parents (they divorced when I was young so the estrangements happened at different times) and whilst I grieve having a supportive relationship in my life but I don’t miss them as they were never able to give me the kind of relationship I wanted and needed with them. I think about the sense of peace I have now being no contact and that helps me to know I’ve done the right thing.
Thank you to everyone who’s shared on this thread, it often feels like you’re the only one in this situation. Hearing your stories shows us we are not alone.

I do understand exactly what you're saying about feeling sad that your children won't have a good grandparent experience, but also because you have gone no contact they are protected too. I didn't even realise that my dad was continually telling my eldest off whenever we saw him, my husband had to point it out to me. He also had to say that he didn't like how my mum and dad spoken to me. I thought it was normal. Realisation was a massive light bulb moment. When I see others out, the difference is amazing.

I'd been so used to that kind of treatment myself I couldn't even see it happening to my own child, in front of me. I have terrible guilt about that, but now my eldest is 12 and he is fine about it, and I've said that its not acceptable for anyone to be treated badly irrespective of who they are and he doesn't need to put up with that.

We can feel sad, but remember we've also broken the pattern and we won't put up with tit treatment anymore. Isn't funny how we can give others advice but taking our own advice is incredibly hard.

 

[testingonetwothreefoiur]

I have to say, I've used tattle as a mindless procrastination tool for a while now, but finding this thread has been amazing. Someone said it above - the absolute isolation of having a parent/ parents like this is incredibly lonely. We're surrounded by happy families, active parents and grandparents, even mindless banter with coworkers and acquaintances can be painful when you see how supported other adults are in all aspects of their lives with parents that take a deep interest in them and an active role in their lives.

I planned a whole wedding without my parents knowing anything other than that it was happening in X country on Y date. I went through 2 major health diagnoses without them knowing, and nmom finding out through enmeshed sibling showed me why it had to be that way. Nmom gaslit me about the conditions, then told me she was glad she knew so she could "pray" for me, cue months of silence and never bringing up the subject again. And I quit more than one job without them knowing. Because the worst neglect is when you're vulnerable - I get the mega Anti Mother then who shows up with judgement, criticism, whataboutery, unsolicited advice and "what will people say" instead of genuine love and care. It's brutal.

What I'm really struggling with now is trying to preserve my other family relationships when they are so enmeshed. I get on well with enmeshed sibling despite her blindness to the toxic dynamic and my Dad is a good man, if an abused and emotionally immature one. I'm really grappling with how I keep them in my lives and tell them anything about myself with a mother like this.

 

[griftalo]

I'm in the process of going no contact. Whatever the family equivalent of "slow quitting" is with your family is what I'm doing. I've blocked their calls & it's only WhatsApp that comes through to a locked chat and I'm keeping information shared to a minimum as anything I've shared previously is told to my aunt's, uncles & neighbours from my hometown. Even stuff I've said in confidence. I've also being told stuff that my aunt's have told my NM in confidence, that I'm 100% sure they wouldn't want me knowing.

I see how their presence effects me, I'm wound up for days in the lead up to seeing them, I'm on edge & would snap and be short with people in a heartbeat. My stomach is in bits I've severe diarrhea and cramps ahead of meeting them - which now I know is all linked to anxiety and stress

I've invited them to my home, but it's met with criticism that it's only on my terms- kids are at the age where they've activities/matches , so no 10am on a Saturday doesn't suit!! Just for context they are both retired so not as if they are rushing anywhere. My home or my appearance is criticized, would you not cut the grass, would you not change the cushions & freshen the place up, would you not replace those candles, would you not replace those flower beds. My home is fine there no issue with it, it's the perfectionist presentation & not a hair out of place my NP wish to present to society. I grew up in a house I want my children to grow up in a home.

I tried going to their home to "maintain a relationship" & also avoid my home being criticized but the concentration shifts to me, I look tired I look worn out, would i not hoover my car, my hair is very long. I've previously tried to counteract all these by arriving with a clean car, manicuring myself so no comment on my appearance etc- it's EXHAUSTING!! And they will always find something! My shoes will give me fallen arches & my eyes brows are "different".

Everything really only came to light for me when I got i pregnant and had kids, it made me feel a love that I never experienced and I couldn't imagine treating my kids or making my kids feel how I was made feel as a child. I was bet with a belt & a slipper growing up by my NF & swore blind that he would never ever be let near my kids.

Growing up ages 0-10 I thought my childhood was completely normal, but as I hit 12/13 and would go to friend's houses for sleep overs I would find it weird that they all sat for dinner, that they all watched a movie together?? They all went in holidays together ?? What? Ages 13 onwards, my siblings and i were dropped from family holidays! While friends still went away!

Fast forward into my late teens and 20s, I started observe and see what normal was & found myself spending more time in friends houses and boyfriends who had close families and really loved it! I left home and rented in my 20s, but was still caught up in family dynamics, every time my parents argued we were some how involved & made involved in their argument! Which now as a grown adult I see was so wrong!!! I was asked by a therapist once of my favourite/best memory of my childhood and happiness with my parents and I do not have any! Just arguing, walking on egg shells & witnessing arguements shouldn't have been exposed to as a child/teen. Any family occasions over the years I attended and hate & make my excuses to leave early or not attend. Christmas I stopped attending in my 20s & would spend with whatever boyfriends family I was seeing at the time.

Now, my life is my own family and friends & my happiness. Communication is a minimum and my response back is something along the lines of "all good here, kids well, miserable weather out". Family occasions I avoid and usually plan things or say I've something on. It's really been my own sickness & kids sickness over the past 18 months that blew my eyes right open to realise they are so selfish and do not give a tit about me. It's sad. But Ive realised it's not on me!

There have been Alot of tears over the past 18months where I've cried over not having family support & would love someone to come, hug and mind me and tell me everything will be ok. It's hard, but as others have said we are all grieving a relationship that we never had or does not exist. Xx

I can relate to so much of this. I remember going to a friends house and her parents played Balderdash with us!
I can’t remember happy times at my home really. Mostly I just try to not think about it.

im not really an inspirational meme person but I thought these fit here

 

[Rodneytrotter]

I just had a really bizarre thought on a Friday morning. I remember going to friends houses who had swings and slides etc in the garden, and I remember getting a feeling of 'these kids are lucky that their parents like them so much that they get swings'. And then a feeling of 'i don't deserve swings, I am not worthy enough'.

That sounds like a pity party when I say it now. But as a child you have all these thoughts and come up with all sorts of conclusions about your worth.

 

[HelloStereo]

I mentioned in another thread but my mum was abusive when I was younger. I thought she had lost my number as she broke her phone but I received a text earlier today from her, not a nasty one but it made me burst into tears and put a total downer on my day.

I think what's common with narcissistic and toxic parents is their inability to take responsibility for their actions. My mum point blank refuses to acknowledge what she's done. She either calls me a liar, says "it was in the past, can we not get over it" or deflects and says things like "what about when x was mean to you?" Or her apologies are not genuine, just "I'm sorry for whatever I've done."

Do they genuinely not remember because to them it's normal behaviour, or do they try not to address it because it means confronting the reality that they were abusive and unkind?

I read this quote today "the axe forgets but the tree remembers". Instances of what they've said or done and how it made us feel are burned into our memories and for them it's just another day.

 

[Maid22]

I mentioned in another thread but my mum was abusive when I was younger. I thought she had lost my number as she broke her phone but I received a text earlier today from her, not a nasty one but it made me burst into tears and put a total downer on my day.

I think what's common with narcissistic and toxic parents is their inability to take responsibility for their actions. My mum point blank refuses to acknowledge what she's done. She either calls me a liar, says "it was in the past, can we not get over it" or deflects and says things like "what about when x was mean to you?" Or her apologies are not genuine, just "I'm sorry for whatever I've done."

Do they genuinely not remember because to them it's normal behaviour, or do they try not to address it because it means confronting the reality that they were abusive and unkind?

I read this quote today "the axe forgets but the tree remembers". Instances of what they've said or done and how it made us feel are burned into our memories and for them it's just another day.

Love that quote, my mother sounds exactly like yours, if I asked her anything, I'd get the look, and grunts for answers, she would shut down if I questioned anything that happened over the years, she really thought she was a good mum, no she wasn't, and she enabled my 'dad' she believed everything that came out of his mouth, though he lied and cheated most of his life. Then the golden child was born, he was a spoilt little tit, now apparently he's the best thing ever, basically he's a clone of his 'dad' I still get really pissed off of how me and my hubby have been treated over many years, but the best decision I've ever made was to go no contact, my regret was not doing it sooner.

 

[HelloStereo]

Love that quote, my mother sounds exactly like yours, if I asked her anything, I'd get the look, and grunts for answers, she would shut down if I questioned anything that happened over the years, she really thought she was a good mum, no she wasn't, and she enabled my 'dad' she believed everything that came out of his mouth, though he lied and cheated most of his life. Then the golden child was born, he was a spoilt little tit, now apparently he's the best thing ever, basically he's a clone of his 'dad' I still get really pissed off of how me and my hubby have been treated over many years, but the best decision I've ever made was to go no contact, my regret was not doing it sooner.

I think they have to believe they were a great parent because otherwise they'd have to acknowledge that they were not and it is their fault the relationship is so poor and you want nothing more to do with them.

Maybe deep down they know but they don't know how to change their behaviour or how to make things right in the relationship. My mum's parents were violent towards each other and my mum grew up thinking that hitting, screaming, throwing things etc was a normal reaction when angry. She also has bipolar and her actions were not those of a happy, secure person. There were some hints of self awareness though when she realised she went too far, one time she pushed me repeatedly out of her bedroom because I interrupted her phone conversation and I ended up falling backwards into the corner of my bed, hitting my head and my arms and bleeding etc. She broke down and started crying about how much of a bad mother she was. I am not sure whether she was trying to do it for sympathy or whether it was genuine but there were a few times she has said she was a bad mum.

My brother was also the golden child growing up, she adored him and treated him so much better. I don't think because he reminded her of my dad, but rather because she thinks she gets on with men better than women. My relationship with my brother sounded a bit like yours when I was younger - strained with an undercurrent of bad feeling. When I moved out she turned her attention to him though, and eventually he moved out at 15 too. He's now much more direct in his dislike of her than I am and would not give her the time of day. His girlfriend asked him why and he just said "growing up, she was really horrible to my sister." He was like her left hand man growing up, I remember he'd stop me from running away so she could hit me, but his acknowledgement now of what she did to me helped the relationship between us.

I'm mostly NC with my mum, I have no inclination to see her or spend time with her, but I guess what's stopping me from going fully NC is that I feel sorry for her in a way.