Lucy Letby Case #6

[Gump13]

Thank you. Is there a link to the RCPHC report?

It’s searchable under RCPHC service review of COCH dated May 2017.

Also since the Stafford enquiry each trust has have a working group to study and to openly publish mortality review data each quarter, it’s usually found in trust info/documents on their website.

 

[veevee04]

I keep edging, I think she probably did do something or it was gross incompetence and she's the worst nurse ever . Why wouldn't you leave though ? The fact she stayed and let them put her admin duties At this point I could not say definitely guilty if I was on the jury. I have my doubts and she would go to prison for life. Really strange case I definitely wouldn't want to be on the jury.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

This is the RCPCH report

https://pdf4pro.com/cdn/www-coch-nhs-uk-7537c.pdf

Thank you. Will try to find time to read this!

 

[raspberryjuice]

I'm not sure if I'm confusing myself. I am just wondering out loud what the circumstances were that then disregarded any deaths as not being suspicious (even in retrospect).

Perhaps they were expected rather than sudden and unexpected collapses and deaths.

 

[abelleza]

We’ve just started week 2 of a 6 month trial.

Yes I know, hence why I mentioned it in my post.

 

[Weeder]

For me I have questions about quite a few things. I can be quite dispassionate so someone kick me if needed...

I couldn't find her guilty on current evidence. I'm not in the innocent camp either. I need clarification.

I think the scapegoat theory is being misrepresented.. Here's a possible scenario.... NICU is all shades of fucked up. There's an awful lot of concern at office/director leveland little Miss Perfect has stuck a grievance in... And everything isn't rosy for them. In fact it's so bumpy and they're so slow to act they're relieved individually when another solution, other than their general incompetence and arrogance being exposed, surfaces. They might not have expressed it, but they're all a bit relieved the pressure is off them.

It's just a theory. I think the scapegoat isn't like a Conspiracy theory with whispering in corners and collaboration but more insidious.

NOT THAT I'M SUPPORTING THIS THEORY

 

[Windowtothewall]

For me I have questions about quite a few things. I can be quite dispassionate so someone kick me if needed...

I couldn't find her guilty on current evidence. I'm not in the innocent camp either. I need clarification.

I think the scapegoat theory is being misrepresented.. Here's a possible scenario.... NICU is all shades of fucked up. There's an awful lot of concern at office/director leveland little Miss Perfect has stuck a grievance in... And everything isn't rosy for them. In fact it's so bumpy and they're so slow to act they're relieved individually when another solution, other than their general incompetence and arrogance being exposed, surfaces. They might not have expressed it, but they're all a bit relieved the pressure is off them.

It's just a theory. I think the scapegoat isn't like a Conspiracy theory with whispering in corners and collaboration but more insidious.

NOT THAT I'M SUPPORTING THIS THEORY

The hospital brought in the police tbf. They could have brushed it under the carpet with the RCPCH report - which gave some vague recommendations but didn't suggest anything criminal was happening. They could have showed that report to the patients, public, victim's parents and everyone would have felt like they were taking action. Now, they are being investigated for 6 years and counting by the police - so much awful publicity, in the spotlight where every death and action will be scrutinised, not to mention the police too could have found any of them negligent or criminal. Once the police are involved you can't control where the investigation will lead.

Also LL didn't make any grievances or complaints before she was suspected - at least the prosecution and defence did not mention it. Her grievance happened after the police investigation was initiated, when she was already a suspect and put on admin duties.

I can't see any conceivable way the police, civilian investigators, multiple sets of medical experts from around the country, victims' families, her colleagues, the hospital, RSPCH are all conspiring against her. This investigation has cost multi million ££ - all this to protect an already failing hospital (that everyone was aware of with the RSPCH report) seems really unlikely.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

The hospital brought in the police tbf. They could have brushed it under the carpet with the RCPCH report - which gave some vague recommendations but didn't suggest anything criminal was happening. They could have showed that report to the patients, public, victim's parents and everyone would have felt like they were taking action. Now, they are being investigated for 6 years and counting by the police - so much awful publicity, in the spotlight where every death and action will be scrutinised, not to mention the police too could have found any of them negligent or criminal. Once the police are involved you can't control where the investigation will lead.

Also LL didn't make any grievances or complaints before she was suspected - at least the prosecution and defence did not mention it. Her grievance happened after the police investigation was initiated, when she was already a suspect and put on admin duties.

I can't see any conceivable way the police, civilian investigators, multiple sets of medical experts from around the country, victims' families, her colleagues, the hospital, RSPCH are all conspiring against her. This investigation has cost multi million ££ - all this to protect an already failing hospital (that everyone was aware of with the RSPCH report) seems really unlikely.

Thank goodness they involved the Police. It might have been late but better late than never.
I’m not buying the scapegoating story, no matter if it’s softened to scapegoating ‘lite’.
People may be flawed, not fully competent etc, etc but most would be horrified at deliberate baby killing.

 

[Lucyxxxx]

Once professionals have an idea in their mind they will go to some ends to defend it. Everyone's saying it's too far fetched all these organisations would do such and such, but it's too not far fetched a nurse went on a serial killing spree in the space of roughly a year, on 24 separate occasions attacked babies via at least 4 different methods undetected? Just my late night thoughts on the matter.

 

[Weeder]

Thank goodness they involved the Police. It might have been late but better late than never.
I’m not buying the scapegoating story, no matter if it’s softened to scapegoating ‘lite’.
People may be flawed, not fully competent etc, etc but most would be horrified at deliberate baby killing.

Me either this week.. Just putting it out there. Scapegoat light is how the NHS operates.. So it's just one of the things that I was thinking while reading the wiki.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Once professionals have an idea in their mind they will go to some ends to defend it. Everyone's saying it's too far fetched all these organisations would do such and such, but it's too not far fetched a nurse went on a serial killing spree in the space of roughly a year, on 24 separate occasions attacked babies via at least 4 different methods undetected? Just my late night thoughts on the matter.

How is it far fetched? Beverly Allitt, Harold Shipman. I take it they’re different in some way? Why?

Me either this week.. Just putting it out there. Scapegoat light is how the NHS operates.. So it's just one of the things that I was thinking while reading the wiki.

It’s baby killing we’re talking about.

 

[Weeder]

Once professionals have an idea in their mind they will go to some ends to defend it. Everyone's saying it's too far fetched all these organisations would do such and such, but it's too not far fetched a nurse went on a serial killing spree in the space of roughly a year, on 24 separate occasions attacked babies via at least 4 different methods undetected? Just my late night thoughts on the matter.

This is true. Right now I'm at duck knows but curious.

How is it far fetched? Beverly Allitt, Harold Shipman. I take it they’re different in some way? Why?



It’s baby killing we’re talking about.

Yes, thank you. I'm aware..

 

[Windowtothewall]

Once professionals have an idea in their mind they will go to some ends to defend it. Everyone's saying it's too far fetched all these organisations would do such and such, but it's too not far fetched a nurse went on a serial killing spree in the space of roughly a year, on 24 separate occasions attacked babies via at least 4 different methods undetected? Just my late night thoughts on the matter.

I suppose there is the example of Beverley Ailitt. There is the example of Harold Shipman. All the mums who kill and abuse their babies.

There was also a case of a young woman (Sinead Connett) who was an HR professional at a big corporate, middle class, educated - she is in prison for killing her baby and burying him in her parent's backyard. Look at Wayne Couzens, a police officer for years with a beautiful family - one day just decided to kidnap, rape and kill a stranger. No prior murder charges for him.

It's far more likely that one person is a murderer than 100s of people across the country over a period of 6 years are all immoral and unethical, and would not expose a conspiracy.

 

[veevee04]

How is it far fetched? Beverly Allitt, Harold Shipman. I take it they’re different in some way? Why?

What the poster means there seems to be a huge escalation. LL worked at COCH since she qualified in 2012 no incidents until she went on a mad killing spree in June 2015 until June 2016. There seems to be no issues about her conduct at uni or at work. What happened? She does not fit the profile of a serial killer there's no MO or pattern . Harold Shipman had been killing for years and years he killed older women with a massive overdose of morphine. I believe he wanted to get caught as he was caught when one of the wills were changed of his victims. He was a clever man with an established MO.

 

[Windowtothewall]

What the poster means there seems to be a huge escalation. LL worked at COCH since she qualified in 2012 no incidents until she went on a mad killing spree in June 2015 until June 2016. There seems to be no issues about her conduct at uni or at work. What happened? She does not fit the profile of a serial killer there's no MO or pattern . Harold Shipman had been killing for years and years he killed older women with a massive overdose of morphine. I believe he wanted to get caught as he was caught when one of the wills were changed of his victims. He was a clever man with an established MO.

Reynhard Sinaga - UK's most prolific rapist didn't start his attacking spree till 2015 when he was 32 years old. He was studying in the UK at uni from 2007 and didn't start his attacks till 2015 - and then escalated immediately to 100s.

159 attacks in a 2 year span...

 

[Weeder]

I absolutely don't know enough about either of the cases you mentioned(Allit and Shipman) . I obviously know a rough outline , and their cases are concluded so it's a bit apples and oranges at the moment.
I'm trying to consider each point and I feel raising things here in the spirit of discussion is better than making a tit of myself on SM . The cases are currently incomparable.. They'll be less so when we have an outcome.

LL did escalate quickly, seemingly. Some posters have raised the digging up of the garden, which I found an interesting indicator of the police suspicions

I'm straddling the fence so hard right now..

Reynhard Sinaga - UK's most prolific rapist didn't start his attacking spree till 2015 when he was 32 years old. He was studying in the UK at uni from 2007 and didn't start his attacks till 2015 - and then escalated immediately to 100s.

159 attacks in a 2 year span...

I'd forgotten about him. It's true, i guess people can just suddenly escalate

Does anyone know the statstics around serial killers admitting their crimes? I might have to have a delve.

 

[veevee04]

Reynhard Sinaga - UK's most prolific rapist didn't start his attacking spree till 2015 when he was 32 years old. He was studying in the UK at uni from 2007 and didn't start his attacks till 2015 - and then escalated immediately to 100s.

159 attacks in a 2 year span...

A rapist is arguably different I'm not well read in his case. serial killers usually have a MO , there's an urge fantasy , an escalation, an attack, a come down , fantasise over the last one then the urge strikes again. LL there was no pattern to it just random attacks all over the place.

 

[abelleza]

I suppose there is the example of Beverley Ailitt. There is the example of Harold Shipman. All the mums who kill and abuse their babies.

There was also a case of a young woman (Sinead Connett) who was an HR professional at a big corporate, middle class, educated - she is in prison for killing her baby and burying him in her parent's backyard. Look at Wayne Couzens, a police officer for years with a beautiful family - one day just decided to kidnap, rape and kill a stranger. No prior murder charges for him.

It's far more likely that one person is a murderer than 100s of people across the country over a period of 6 years are all immoral and unethical, and would not expose a conspiracy.

Tbf Wayne Couzens slowly escalated from voyeurism, a common way that rapists start (and build up the courage to carry out full on sex attacks).

I think people are just looking for an explanation as to why she would do something like this, perhaps something will come up in the trial, perhaps it won’t. Harold Shipman and BA had clear ‘motives’ for their crimes, and WC we can assume did it for sexual gratification. It’s completely normal for people to look for explanations for things they don’t understand.

(I’ll also say that I don’t subscribe to the scapegoat theory before anybody jumps down my throat).

 

[Windowtothewall]

A rapist is arguably different I'm not well read in his case. serial killers usually have a MO , there's an urge fantasy , an escalation, an attack, a come down , fantasise over the last one then the urge strikes again. LL there was no pattern to it just random attacks all over the place.

But they weren't random attacks. They targeted new borns and involved killing them in stealth, undetectable methods. The methods would have to differ because they had to be linked to what treatment or condition they had at the time. And linked to whatever reason she was attending to them - that's the only way it could be undetectable.

If the motive is to kill babies, and you are in a hospital setting, you will adapt your methods for each individual case so no one notices a pattern unless they're looking for it.

Rapists have an MO because they need to attack full grown adults in a public setting, and go for a method that's proven to work to avoid detection. A nurse killing new borns in a hospital already has full access to human beings who can't protect or defend themselves or communicate in any way. So the MO only needs to focus on blending in to their regular care.

 

[Weeder]

Tbf Wayne Couzens slowly escalated from voyeurism, a common way that rapists start (and build up the courage to carry out full on sex attacks).

I think people are just looking for an explanation as to why she would do something like this, perhaps something will come up in the trial, perhaps it won’t. Harold Shipman and BA had clear ‘motives’ for their crimes, and WC we can assume did it for sexual gratification. It’s completely normal for people to look for explanations for things they don’t understand.

(I’ll also say that I don’t subscribe to the scapegoat theory before anybody jumps down my throat).

I'm definitely seeking explanations. I find it incredibly difficult to accept the possibility anyone's THAT evil. I don't know why. It's definitely easier to believe when they look like Levi Bellfield. That's just my bias.

I guess looking at it straight down the barrel isn't my style. There's far too much nuance going on here.

I'm not really a scapegoater either, I just think it's interesting and wanted raise that scapegoating doesn't equal active conspiracy