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riddleme89

VIP Member
In WhatsApp messages read to the court, Ms Letby asked a colleague on the afternoon of 14 October if Child I was staying on the unit.

She added: "I'd like to keep her please."

Her colleague, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, replied: "Yes. Staying for now. OK re keeping."

An hour later the colleague messaged: "I've had to re-allocate. Sorry."

Ms Letby said: "Has something happened?"

The colleague replied: "No. Was just asked to reallocate so no one has her for more than one night at a time. Or one shift. Not just night."

Ms Letby responded: "Yeah that's understandable."



Fuck me, that’s sinister.
Bloody hell that’s insane almost like the staff know something is dodgy so making sure only one staff a night instead of the same staff … she’s definitely guilty . I’ve worked in a hospital for eight years and I’ve never been bothered about what patient I’m helping .
 
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tay65

Chatty Member
that could be part of it yes, because she wasn’t the only nurse that looked after her. If you felt that strongly that you wanted to do something, would you not ask the other nurses who cared for her to perhaps sign a card, maybe ask advice on what would be an appropriate card. To me the card she sent, even if innocently was inappropriate because the text on it was hardly referring to the death of a tiny baby who should have had their whole life ahead. I’m sure you’d just be so worried about whether it was appropriate or not. It’s very much like “ look at me !”
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Yes, totally. These are the words you should write, may have even looked them up somewhere. It’s mimicking behaviours.

Seems totally off and out of place.
She seems to be abnormally obsessed with work with all the texting to colleagues about patients when she was not on duty or when her colleagues were not on duty, and all the Facebook searches of the parents late at night and on Christmas day and sometimes months after the were on NICU. For a young women probably in her mind 20's (at the time) it doesn't seem normal or innocent. She could not leave work behind even to the extent of having patient notes in her house. Harold Shipman was like that which gave patients the impression of dedication. LL gave some of her colleagues the impression of dedication as well.
 
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MmmB777

VIP Member
@docmum @Haveyouanywool anything to add medically for the arrest baby M has? It’s so incredible to me that they, understandably, nearly gave up after almost 30 minutes and spoke to the parents about stopping efforts.. for baby to go on to be in air just hours later. Thank god they carried on. Important to remember how many babies have survived because of all their efforts too I think.
 
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F1Grid

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But you do need to be a pathologist to have a thorough understanding of how cause of death is determined, the contribution of any disease processes or interventions, and the interpretation of post or ante mortem findings. Anyone can sit down with a big stack of notes and look for patterns, but I am increasingly uncomfortable with the lack of scientific rigour in some of his claims and in the conclusions which have been drawn.
You absolutely don't.

Most of these babies did not undergo postmortem. Therefore there are no 'post or ante mortem' findings other than notes and imaging for most, and their bodies have likely decayed or been cremated, so there's no exhuming them. There are no samples for the pathologist to look at under a microscope and there never will be. We can't do a purely scientific study of it.

Most of BM's questions to them are 'this is infection' - a pathologist cannot say so without a sample, which doesn't exist for most of these babies. However, DE and SB who have treated tens of thousands babies between them, can say that in their experience babies with infections usually decline gradually, they don't suddenly arrest like these did. They can say that in their experience they've never seen optiflow fill a baby's bowel with gas like it did for Child I. They can say that they've treated a lot of babies with NEC, and this isn't how they typically behave. They can say that they don't see babies vomiting and having the vomit land 2 feet away. They can say that in their experience, neonates do not shriek unless they are in pain, and therefore their assumption is that these babies are in pain. They can say what equipment is easily accessible that on the ward is hard and rigid, and can fit down a baby's throat to cause injuries like in child E. They can say whether it is usual practice to put insulin into a TPN bag.

A pathologist can answer none of those things - they don't see live babies. This is why, in a coroners case, the neonatologists would also be giving the bulk of the statements here.

All of BM's discrediting comes on the particularly blatant cases. Child I, Child G, Child E, Child C. All ones where there's either pathology findings, or blatant contradictions in LL's story or notes. The only blatant one he didn't pull it on is Child F where it's 100% confirmed that the baby was injected with insulin by blood results.
 
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raspberryjuice

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I don’t think being on the fence or waiting to hear all the evidence makes anyone pro-baby killer. I’d hope NOBODY on the thread was pro-murdering babies, no matter what or how they question evidence. We all interpret things differently and it’s interesting to see how others do see it differently.

Personally, im team G, but I didn’t interpret her crying in court as being a sign she could have been in love with or obsessed with the doctor. I thought maybe the enormity of what she is facing may have overwhelmed her at that point. We all see things differently. I don’t see that as anyone supporting her if she is guilty and therefore being pro-baby killer. They’re just analysing the evidence as it’s presented.
 
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stardust1

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on the subject of her crying and trying to walk out.

Does an emotional outburst actually fit with her being guilty?

I think it’s definitely interesting and another part of this case where we could do with some more context. But for me a psychopath holds it together in court. They tend to love this part of it.

She also seems genuine because she’s not been like this throughout and I think this makes her seem more human.
‘thought of this makes her seem more human’ for me i think why the hell is an innocent human crying over the name of a doc and not crying at the fact babies have been poisoned with insulin (fact) and potentially murdered. The crying over this actually makes me think nutcase
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I feel like healthcare worker parents is too specific, as in would you really get that many babies in a NICU in that period of time whos parents were nurses or doctors? Same for the rumour that all the parents were travellers. There’s just not that many of them in the world. (Plus travellers probably would have found a way to batter Lucy already, remand or no remand)

If there is a link between the victims it’s probably more general or common, like all young parents or all IVF babies, or just Lucy plain didn’t like them because of some problem in her own head
I agree I know there is definitely at least one doctor mum and defo at least 2 ivf babies
 
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MmmB777

VIP Member
The rashes are documented for multiple babies throughout though and many witnesses say they were talked about at the time and have said this under oath in the box. They did try and photograph it at one point but it disappeared like baby Ms. Also they’re being seen and interpreted by different people. He’s said there was not a suspicion of foul play yet but that people saw it was her shifts, she was there or her babies and we know from texts that her friends and colleagues talk about that and Lucy herself acknowledges it several times. Nobody suspected she was killing them yet.
 
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Daisydunn15

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A lot of it comes down to personality too, what one person considers trivial could be completely traumatic to another. I think people clutch at straws a bit when trying to explain serial killers cos we naturally want to understand it but some people are just fucked up. I do think there would be some weird incidents over the years prior to the first baby tho, if found guilty I'm sure they'll come out.
 
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raspberryjuice

VIP Member
When I moved in to my house my spare room became the dumping ground for anything that didn’t have a home yet. It was full of boxes and carrier bags/bags for life (not discriminating on types of bag!) for about 6 months (ok some boxes are still there 6 years on) until I managed to find places for everything to live. I can’t envisage a situation where I’d have put any paperwork in a bag and shoved it under my bed when I had empty rooms that could easily be used for storing whatever I needed. She wanted that paperwork hidden, and close to her.
 
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Tofino

VIP Member
75BB552D-64FC-4C02-AC2A-2FBD1DA7DC1B.jpeg

Messages following the usual pattern.

Offering an explanation for death ‘just don’t think she was strong enough’

Put down of other staff ‘not pulling their weight’ then discussion about all the praise she’s received ‘doctors speak very highly of her’
 
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Pulltheotherone

VIP Member
The abysmal failings in the unit for whatever reason was a perfect smokescreen for Letby.
I think she really thought she would get away with this.
 
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DellaC

VIP Member
Could we possibly do a case study on him?

Not to kill him in any way, just to errr shut him up for a bit 🤣
 
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Windowtothewall

Chatty Member
I’ve been following from afar since Christmas - was hard to properly get back into the detail with all the breaks.

There hasn’t been anything else that’s swayed me to either side though my gut instinct is Guilty. But what caught my attention was the show of emotion for child L, and the timing of it. Seems like she reacted just as the doctor gave his name… She’s stayed emotionless through all the harrowing and tragic evidence for months but gets triggered just by a certain doctor giving his name?

I did wonder if it’s because she knows how damning his testimony is that a crime was absolutely committed. Whether she did it or not is to be determined, so she’s now pulling on the jury’s heart strings by acting upset. So it softens their stance towards her and makes them doubt the prosecution claiming she did. It just felt calculated because it’s an odd thing to get so publicly emotional about - just someone showing up and giving their name. Would have made more sense if it was while they were actually talking about the victim….

Does anyone know if this is the first time she’s expressed upset?
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Actually I know why I’m feeling suspicious of this outburst. The only other time I remember them showing she had a really emotional episode was after child C (or D) when they started an investigation into A. She then went on sick leave and was messaging people how she hadn’t been able to stop crying and was very upset. Which is a fair response to all the incidents but I found it odd that she never seemed to get as upset later on when there were again a string of tragic deaths together. And in fact complained how bored she was.

So atm I can only see 2 public, very emotional outbursts - One, after the enquiry into A (or may have been B or C) when people were raising suspicions about how unusual it was happening to her. Two, when the doctor with definitive evidence of a crime against another one of her patients is about to testify.

That makes me suspicious about how someone can manipulate emotions when convenient.
 
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Takemetoyourbuffet

Well-known member
Yes baby L is the first time the move to days is mentioned. I’m assuming that’s because of the consultant’s concerns after baby K, which I think he did raise in some way (as described in his evidence at the very start of the trial). I wonder why baby K will be heard at a different time, tricky to go backwards then if that is when concerns were raised, feel it’s quite crucial to the big picture but hopefully it makes sense.
I think because we're due to hit baby Ks birthday and the anniversary of the date they passed away, so 2 very significant dates for parents. It would be torture to put them through sitting through court at the same time.
 
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Takemetoyourbuffet

Well-known member
I tend to shy away from confrontation so I feel super uncomfortable when it all starts getting a bit heated. I get it though, it's something people are very passionate about. I have to say, whilst i have my own opinions, I really appreciate hearing the views and interpretations of others. Throughout history we've needed voices that have challenged the status quo, otherwise as a society we'd have been well and truly fucked several times over!

Also, I think we should all be extremely thankful that whilst others may have their own opinions, at least no one in here is a fucking crank! Referencing particularly, at the moment one lady losing her shit on twitter and claiming the babies had excess air because they weren't able to be burped properly and Dr J has accused LL because he's having a psychotic breakdown because the courtyard at the hospital is shaped like a swastika 🤯

Anyway. Live, Laugh, Love, Letby ✌
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I work in a sector where ‘all behaviour is a communication’ - so for me, the sudden outburst of tears coupled with getting out of her chair is a fear response - and she’s quite literally tried to ‘flight’ (as in, fight or flight).
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What does that communicate though? That she doesn’t want to hear what they’ll have to say? That’s really the only logical explanation. Are we hearing more from this Dr?
Yes, this! In what I do it's called a 'trauma response'. Hope we get a bit more insight into what that 'trauma' is!
 
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EffingDust

Chatty Member
Ref: hearing the doctors name and crying/getting up, it could be that she knows she’s done for. Or a romantic connection, real or imagined, as others have said.

But there is a third option and I’m not sure I’d put it past her given what we know so far. Is she setting the scene for “i can’t possibly be in the room with this man who was so terrible to me”…is she going to claim some sort of abuse or manipulation by a man that led to her doing these things?

sound a bit TV drama but to be honest I don’t imagine Lucy cries unless it suits her purposes entirely
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On another note where did she think she was gonna go by getting up out of her seat
Matalan
 
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