Lucy Letby case #21

[MmmB777]

This baby was actively dead to the point they were asking the parents about stopping CPR. As soon as that happened, the rash went away. There was no time for pictures.

The notes for an arrest follow a specific structure - it has to be an automatic process in the scribe's head, just like everything in CPR that we try and make automatic.

You document how many rounds of CPR, when you're giving drugs (adrenaline), or shocking if appropriate. You document looking for your reversible causes - hypoxia, hypovolaemia, hypo or hyperkalaemia, hypothermia, thrombosis, cardiac tamponade, toxins, tension pneumothorax. This is why we get blood gases, a set of obs, and the heart and lungs are examined during compressions. These are recorded contemporaneously. You do expose the child, but you're looking for something BIG.

If there's none of these reversible causes present, and you don't have a pulse back, you start thinking about stopping. You have a discussion with family, or you ask the rest of the team do they have any objections to stopping. This is documented. Then you document when you stopped and why.

Issue is, the reason baby M arrested isn't one of those reversible causes. They were progressing down that specific structure from what we heard, then.... baby M suddenly got better for no apparent reason. The relevance of that rash was also only recognised once the consultants sat down in June - the art of note writing means down you're writing down relevant things only, I'm not going to write about my patient's 5 cats, or funny looking toe, or a bit of a rash when I don't think it's relevant. In an arrest situation, unless you think that rash is suggestive of anaphylaxis (gives hypoxia and hypovolaemia, which are reversible), or DIC (thrombus, which is reversible), or is due to a local reaction to a transdermal patch (toxins) or suggests surgical emphysema (tension pneumothorax) you're probably going to bypass it.

Very perfectly put and how I see it explained in my head but could never explain in any way! Because it’s now a pinpoint of this case it’s hard to see that at the time this is just a total unknown to them and it’s not explained by any medical pathway they’re looking for. They don’t suspect Letby. They don’t suspect the rash to be an indication of what’s caused the collapse because they’re not aware injection of air is a remote possibility. Or ever remotely seen the results of injection of air ever before. I’m sure nobody wishes it was in the notes more than dr j just to get BM of his case and stop him accusing him of making it up. He has said before about his hurt that he did not make more of a stand later on but until after M and after the meeting, he did not suspect deliberate harm.

 

[docmum]

She’s a personality disordered/narcissistic woman. The only tears will be for her own sense of loss.

 

[Pulltheotherone]

I have always thought there could be a doctor she was infatuated with in this case.
Not saying it is as I have literally no idea but just a guess with earlier text messages.

 

[gimmethattea]

inevitably there will be a lot more of differing intensities imo, there will be cases that will not have been deemed to have sufficient evidence to stand up in court and thereby could risk the entire case. Once this is over there will me more stories to come.

I have a feeling too that once this case has finished, if found guilty, there may be parents questioning if this is something that could have happened to their own babies if there were there during those times.

If she's found guilty, I think we'll see some more investigation and more parents coming forward.

 

[MmmB777]

theres a listing before this at the time lucy was ‘viewing houses’ and the nursery had been done up and different decor so pretty sure it is Lucy’s

I’m more sure that that’s her decor than I am of her guilt

 

[Daisydunn15]

Thank you, it’s ironic that the people that are pro baby killer are the rudest on this forum then complain they don’t feel welcome..
Each baby we are hearing about it’s more obvious to me she’s done it so will be following every day till justice is served!

'Pro baby killer' is disgusting. I've questioned evidence, seen some evidence differently to most on here and I'm not convinced that she's guilty, I'm certainly not 'pro baby killer'. This is why people think the thread is an echo chamber sometimes, flinging such a disgusting phrase about when you disagree with someone. This is a discussion thread and people should be able to share differing opinions, if discussion offends you then maybe tattle isn't the right place.
I'm sure everyone who is unsure would like nothing more than to see justice done for these babies, if it turns out that she's guilty.

 

[stardust1]

IF it was a genuine mistake she must have been living rather cluttered because how do you have confidential paper that you should never have really still under a bed and not just dispose of it. The pics of when her house went up for sale wasn’t exactly a hoarders and actually looked rather minimalistic to me. I understand everyone is different but just seems rather random

 

[avabella]

I work in a sector where ‘all behaviour is a communication’ - so for me, the sudden outburst of tears coupled with getting out of her chair is a fear response - and she’s quite literally tried to ‘flight’ (as in, fight or flight).
.
What does that communicate though? That she doesn’t want to hear what they’ll have to say? That’s really the only logical explanation. Are we hearing more from this Dr?

 

[LilyRose1234]

Just not sure these are notes that ever end up accidentally coming home though by the sounds of things. She’s taken those items on purpose imo. It’s not just that it’s paperwork going home it’s things you definitely wouldn’t and if you did you’re not going to store them under your bed for two years any scenario that I try and make in my head to give her the benefit of the doubt literally makes me laugh out loud it’s so unbelievable to me!

Haha I’m ashamed to say I found my old work bag under my bed the other week that had some notebooks etc from my old job, that I left over a year ago and the notebooks were pre-Covid, that’s how long it had been since I’d sorted it (and I’d moved twice since then ) so I can see how it happens in theory BUT it was a handbag I didn’t use anymore not a carrier bag, and there are already a stack of coincidences in this case, so what are the odds this is just another unlucky coincidence

 

[MmmB777]

Also she was not baby M’s nurse. Is that not all the weirder to have their paperwork too.

 

[MmmB777]

The more I read it, the more strange it gets. It’s very over the top for somebody with little to no relationship with these people. I know she’s a hun but “lots of love”?! To me it reads like somebody that thinks these are the things to say but doesn’t actually know/doesn’t have the real emotions. Again it’s mainly just the stark contradictions for me. Very odd to say in police interview that she barely remembers anything about baby I but sent this card with all these over the top statements.
The similarities with other babies are really overwhelming now I feel. How can BM say it’s yet another infection with no other signs. Baby stable and then at brink of death. She’s found on her own again. Things happening on breaks and when backs are turned. The Facebook searches in the middle of the night again, like she’s getting her hit.

Any analysis of the medical info today @docmum @Haveyouanywool x

 

[Deeznutslol]

Maybe it could be normal if it was a one off thing, but this isn’t the first time she has taken things home. She took handover sheets before.

 

[docmum]

There’s never ever a possible situation where a clinical trial could be done to test effects and possible treatments. It’s almost a sarcastic reply in a way tbh. You give an air embolus, you expect to do harm/kill. Not something that anyone would be off to the lab to write a thesis on. This has been such an annoyance for me all along, people want ‘proof’ she did it but the fact is we literally do not know what physical sign would imply someone had injected any air. If anything, the reported data from this trial once it’s over is something that could well be reflected upon in the future (and in future cases perhaps?) as to how babies are thought to behave following an air embolus.

 

[Lucyxxxx]

Still prepared to hear the defence and their argument but the papers being found under the bed is getting a HEAVY side eye from me.

 

[Treesy19]

Hey I think she is guilty as you know, but I think Ben is asking exactly the right questions. He just needs to. He’d be bonkers and a crap barrister not to. If you were up against this horror show you’d want your barrister asking what he does. He’s taken on one of the most heinous serial killer cases in the UK in decades. This is what I believe it is. It’s going down in history this.

The doctors are standing their ground during his cross examination really well by the sounds of it. Think there’s gonna be a lot of repetition with the talk of “there are no clinical trials on AE in babies” as they already touched on the absence of much AE data in an earlier baby, so I wonder whether Ben just needs to ask again just because it’s a separate baby/charge.

 

[docmum]

absofeckinglutely right Dr Evans. About time someone shoved this back at BM. My heart ached reading the article but I did a little air punch at this quote. I’m sure the prosecution have covered it in more technical discussions but having this as a response from a witness is fantastic.

 

[avabella]

Thank you, it’s ironic that the people that are pro baby killer are the rudest on this forum then complain they don’t feel welcome..
Each baby we are hearing about it’s more obvious to me she’s done it so will be following every day till justice is served!

Who is ‘pro baby killer’? That is honestly just so offensive to anyone who isn’t prattling along with the ‘she’s a psycho, she’s a sociopath, she’s evil’ (rinse and repeat).
Everyone’s views and contributions should be welcome, not just the two most prolific posters on this thread.

 

[DellaC]

Its a long trial and keeps getting extended, I'd say the reporters can't commit to so many hours for such 'little content'. Whatever is going in there seems to be a lot of tooing and froing, the court sessions seem to be less structured than previously and they must've wasted a lot of hours travelling to court for the session to be cancelled.

I don't think they think she's innocent so have decided to sack it off. They are reporters and reporting is their job.

 

[raspberryjuice]

I think she just wanted to see the hurt she had caused. Maybe also to check whether they were questioning the hospital/staff. But mostly to see the utter devastation she had caused. There are some parents she doesn’t seem to look up and others she looks at a lot. I wonder if the ones she gave more attention to with her fb searches, the cards, the hanging around after baby has passed when she wasn’t wanted or needed etc are the ones who were more visibly distraught and grieving and she enjoyed seeing that.

 

[F1Grid]

The case for the defense is done, IMO.

Rather than try to pick holes in the evidence, or suggest an organic reason for M's collapse, BM is trying to call RJ incompetent for daring to come to the same conclusion as the expert witnesses did, independent of them. Who he also tries to discredit on strong cases!