I don’t think she’s innocent, but I hope to be proved completely right.
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Can something more be done though ? I don’t work in any hospital field so really don’t understand how it all works. You say everyone knows this surgeon is incompetent. Can someone just not simply go to the police ? You say he hasn’t caused any deaths, but what if one day he does ?. What will everyone who works with him be saying then, we knew all long but management swept it under the carpet. Is that good enough?
What repercussions are there, if any, if someone goes no enough is enough I’m taking this to the police. What stops you ? (Not you personally everyone collectively). Not judging I’m genuinely curious, because had someone done that in letbys case (if she is the cause) , incompetence or purposeful, so many more babies may have survived.
The CPS wouldn’t have brought charges if they didn’t think they had a water tight case, all these factors on their own you would probably be able to explain but put together - it doesnt really look very good for her.
I truly believe some people are just born evil and will do evil things, things we can’t comprehend and can’t explain. She might be one of these people who knows!
I truly believe some people are just born evil and will do evil things, things we can’t comprehend and can’t explain. She might be one of these people who knows!
Yep, completely agree, I have also witnessed this first hand. Concerns are raised and more often than not those raising the concerns are looked at negatively. I and several other colleagues reported a fellow midwife on numerous occasions for things I consider quite serious. Obviously not to the extent of this case but serious nonetheless, and certainly scenarios that could have her fitness to practice questioned. Nothing was done and we were made to feel a nuisance for reporting in the first place. In my experience, the culture in the NHS does nothing to promote whistleblowing. People will overlook a lot of serious issues for fear of having to report and become labelled a 'grass'. The move from nights to days despite being concerned about her competency obviously doesn't make sense but I can well believe it. As can I believe her being given a student, sometimes we have more students than staff and they need to be assigned to someone!
She didn't bring home medical records. She had a handover sheet. There's no need to exaggerate and sensationalise things.
So you wouldn’t normally go straight to the police no. You’d usually go to the nurse in charge of the shift. If you don’t feel they’ve listened to you, go to the ward manager, or a practice development nurse. If they don’t listen, you’d go to the matron. If they don’t listen, the head of nursing. You keep going up the chain of command. Hospitals also have freedom to speak up champions, they have safety champions, there are many, many routes to escalate concerns. There’s also the datix reporting system, which must be submitted every time you’ve seen someone commit a mistake.
Even if someone is struggling, they need to be given the opportunity to be supported to improve their practice. You’re not allowed to just sack someone after one error
I'm not up to date hence why I used brackets. A handover sheet for her was still a trophy. Simple as.
What are the police going to do about it? He’s acting within his legal right as a doctor. All patients have to sign a consent form to say they accept that things can and do go wrong in a surgery, things just go wrong more often with him cause he’s crap at his job.There’s no crime being committed, just pure incompetence. The only people who can do anything about it are the high up managers and they don’t because it’s too much bother, and tbh even they would probably lose if he took them to court for firing him for being crap at his job.
The NHS is bleeping corrupt to the core when it comes to reporting concerns. Where I worked, there were also huge issues with nepotism and those who were related to people in high up managerial positions could basically get away with doing whatever they liked. There was so much toxicity and cliquey-ness, and when I raised concerns about the behaviour of certain colleagues and their incompetency, I was just labelled a trouble maker and moved to another area of the department.
I’ve seen people cover each others backs and I’ve seen others get blamed for the failings of members of staff much higher up.
I really have no idea, your scenario is completely different to the letby case as of course no one has lost their lives. And fair point about that patient consent. I guess I’m going over the incompetence scenario for letby. Because even if staff around her thought it was incompetence babies were dying. I just find it hard to get my ahead around the fact that some had serious concern but let it go for so long. I appreciate though that unless you are put in that situation no one’s know how it will be or they would deal with it. Seems there needs to be changes and over hall of the whole system, and more support in place for those who want to speak out. I really wasn’t aiming it at you badly I’m just trying to understand it from an insiders point of view and I really appreciate your input and take on it.
'Direct line' for NHS whistleblowers - BBC News
A nurse who spoke out over the Stafford Hospital scandal takes on a new role helping NHS staff have their concerns listened to.
www.bbc.co.uk
^^a quick read for anyone who wants to see a classic case of someone being ignored for raising concerns, a nurse who whistle blew in the mid Staffordshire scandal. I believe she’s managed to improve protection for whistleblowers and give them an easier route to do so but it doesn’t go far enough.
Whistleblower nurse calls for new body to tackle bullying in NHS | Nursing Times
A nurse who was threatened by colleagues for speaking out about care failings at Mid Staffordshire Foundation Trust has said bullying remains a “real
www.nursingtimes.net
^^Here’s another article to show the depth of the cover-up that was attempted. This is why people are saying they believe LL could be a scapegoat. I personally don’t believe it applies in this case but it certainly isn’t above he realms of possibility at all.
I fully believe that the hospital would conspire to make LL a scapegoat, I just don’t think the police and the CPS would too. And whilst the evidence is all circumstantial, it certainly points toward her being guilty (although I believe unless more concrete evidence is shown, this will not lead to a conviction).
If the hospital aren’t listening to concerns about competency then go to the regulatory body (GMC if it’s a doctor) and they will investigate if this surgeon is incompetent. If he is truly incompetent he poses a huge risk to patient safety. The gmc might then ensure he has further training or is supervised or worst case scenario will be struck off but that’s unlikely as usually they will work with the dr to get better.
The consultants who had concerns about Lucy and done nothing (didn’t record it in notes from my understanding?, didn’t have her supervised or raise concerns higher up from what we know so far). They failed those babies just as much if they had worries and done nothing. If the hospital didn’t listen the onus is on them to take it further if they still had concerns. At the heart of this case is the tiniest most fragile babies that need the most protection. If anyone had as much as an inkling they should have done something. Moving her to days shows they had concerns - letting her supervise a nurse would indicate they didn’t have concerns because then she is potentially able to show another nurse to perform as she does and if they feared that was incompetence then why were they happy for her to do that. It’s deeply concerning.
I worked in the nhs for years (not a clinical role) and raised concerns on many occasions. Each time I did was met with a wall. I always ensured I raised concerns in writing with an electronic paper trail and copied in all of the higher ups so that I could prove I done everything that i could within my power to act on concerns. My concerns were nowhere near as sinister as this case.
No I know, I didn’t take it personally. I’m just trying to show how difficult it is in the NHS for people to speak out, and that if they do they often are not supported - and that even goes for consultants, who are often seen as the ‘bosses’ of the hospital but are not.
EDIT: obviously if they did absolutely nothing about their suspicions that is unforgivable. But we don’t actually know that yet, and we do know that management were aware there was an issue with her being involved with so many deaths and the consultants were part of the initial investigation by the hospital, so that says to me that they did speak out with some suspicions to management, even if it wasn’t necessarily about her purposefully harming the babies, but possible just questioning her competence. It’s just so difficult to get anything done about concerns.
I don’t imagine she’d be saying to the student, just introduce 25mls of air via this nasogastric tube.
As far as I’m aware, many of her colleagues were sticking up for her, and still are.
To be fair, a lot of workplaces are like that. I’m not excusing it saying it’s right but it is human nature.
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But handover sheet have medical informations about the patient.
Of course, nepotism happens everywhere but when it leads to lives being put at risk because you can’t report someones incompetence as their manager also happens to be their literal parent (which is what happened where I worked, and this wasn’t a failing hospital either), it becomes a huge issue. That’s not human nature, that’s something that literally should not be allowed to happen at any point in any healthcare situation.
I think re: the handover sheet at the moment it is speculation because she hasn’t been found guilty. Some of us have gut feelings and hunches but if/until she’s found guilty we don’t know. If she is and all the information is made public, and say psychiatric reports/assessments for the court then we’ll know.
We do know according to the prosecution that they did do something though.
Nick Johnson KC, prosecuting, told the jury that three months after the death of Baby K, in April 2016, Letby had been moved to day shifts “because the consultants were concerned about the correlation between her presence and unexpected deaths and life-threatening episodes on the night shifts”
It really does appear that someone, somewhere, because of you what you have stated in your above posts just didn’t do enough or take it seriously enough. They did eventually though didn’t they, as she was removed from clinical duties and put into a administrative role. It was just too late, I think it’s easy to see how perhaps the babies from the night time incidents could have been over looked and it was more unpreventable, I mean you cant just go round throwing unfounded accusations around. I Just feel the day babies loosing their lives, was so much more avoidable in all this and someone somewhere decided to play god. I think everyone will always have that WHY didn’t they put her on administration duties instead of allowing her to go on to days. I can completely see how it all happened though just heartbreaking, everything about it right down to how staff are not taken seriously.
She had handover sheets for babies that weren’t assigned to her - how does that happen?
We’ll know then won’t we, if it’s a trophy. If she has a seriously dysfunctional and disturbed personality. I really hope not. As a nurse it’s dreadful to think people like that sometimes get into the profession and hurt our patients and sometimes the most vulnerable ones. It’s just awful to contemplate.
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