Lucy Letby #5

[TheWitchIsBack]

If she was a scape goat it would take everyone to be on board. Also when they did the independent review it gave the hospital ways to improve without pinning the blame on anyone so that was their chance to sweep it all under the rug. It doesn’t make sense why they would then still contact the police knowing they could get into even more trouble if they were found lying to stitch her up. There is far easier ways to have got rid of her than this.

If she was scapegoated as well it would be to reduce risk to the trust however this exposes them significantly to financial loss and reputational risk. There’s also a huge amount of pressure for trusts when a police investigation is underway - having to engage legal counsel, the man hours in preparing medical records, releasing staff to testify at a long winded trial and spend time with their own legal representation plus the additional governance and control that would be implemented throughout this.

Im not saying that scapegoating doesn’t happen as I’ve no doubt it does, there just doesn’t seem to be any form of logic in allowing this to happen to mitigate loss/risk to the trust when actually the cost (financially and otherwise) will be exponentially greater because of this trial.

 

[Its_Me]

thats what I meant, why did her defence no bring it up in opening statements, that she had been searching other families

Sorry I missed that you said opening defence. Yeh so either because he knows they were the only ones and the prosecution are going to go on to say that. Or he’s saving it for later. He didn’t bring up a great deal did he. Good or bad? Not sure.

 

[Gingerfattie]

If she was scapegoated as well it would be to reduce risk to the trust however this exposes them significantly to financial loss and reputational risk. There’s also a huge amount of pressure for trusts when a police investigation is underway - having to engage legal counsel, the man hours in preparing medical records, releasing staff to testify at a long winded trial and spend time with their own legal representation plus the additional governance and control that would be implemented throughout this.

Im not saying that scapegoating doesn’t happen as I’ve no doubt it does, there just doesn’t seem to be any form of logic in allowing this to happen to mitigate loss/risk to the trust when actually the cost (financially and otherwise) will be exponentially greater because of this trial.

Really agree with you on this, the scapegoating theory doesn’t add up. It would literally be costing the Trust a fortune. Plus the support they will have to lay on for the staff/teams affected. And they stand to lose anyway because it’s clear there were failings in picking this up quicker. No doubt parents will seek financial compensation, and rightly so. There will be a massive independent inquiry underway.

 

[stardust1]

If she was scapegoated as well it would be to reduce risk to the trust however this exposes them significantly to financial loss and reputational risk. There’s also a huge amount of pressure for trusts when a police investigation is underway - having to engage legal counsel, the man hours in preparing medical records, releasing staff to testify at a long winded trial and spend time with their own legal representation plus the additional governance and control that would be implemented throughout this.

Im not saying that scapegoating doesn’t happen as I’ve no doubt it does, there just doesn’t seem to be any form of logic in allowing this to happen to mitigate loss/risk to the trust when actually the cost (financially and otherwise) will be exponentially greater because of this trial.

I think it would be naive of us to believe scape goating doesn’t happen but I also think it’s naive to believe all these people would take sending an innocent person down to the grave. Theres not really a logical reason for them to have done that when they escaped the independent review. In my opinion they must have believed there was something really bad happening to decide they weren’t happy with that review.

 

[Bobbleowl90]

I honestly don’t see how anybody can think she’s innocent.

 

[IGiveUp22]

I think sometimes people (no one in particular here) struggle with the thinking things are “either or” when 2 things can be true at the same time as in - I don’t believe the scapegoat theory in this case but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it happens within the NHS (or anywhere else). Likewise I don’t believe the Facebook searching was innocent in this case but I do know there are occasions Facebook searching is innocent & doesn’t mean anything. Also, I think the hospital massively failed in so many ways but I also think she was possibly committing murder…it doesn’t have to be either or, it can be both

 

[mchammerr]

Is this a BBC thing? I’d like to watch but I’m due to have a big op next year (10 hours on the slab ) and I’m wondering if it’s a good idea to watch it ahead of that

Absolutely not. Do not do it

 

[LittleMy]

I honestly don’t see how anybody can think she’s innocent.

I think most people are just trying to keep an open mind.

I hope whatever the outcome will be, that it’s achieved after a thorough and fair trial. If she’s found guilty, it means less chance for a successful appeal later.

 

[Gingerfattie]

@stardust1 oh absolutely, people are made scapegoats all the time and the NHS and social care in particular have been known for it. Look at Baby P, was it Sharon Shoesmith? But yes, I think with Lucy Letby even this would be taking scapegoating too far when you look at amount of agencies involved, amount of time to gather evidence etc, costs etc.

 

[anotheronebitesthedust.1]

I don’t necessarily believe the scapegoat theory but I do beleive the department and the trust should be held accountable to some extent
This all happened in 2016 , care was questionable , staff levels were horrendous but yet here we are 2022 , 6 years down the line and the care, training and staffing levels are still at the same level they were previously . You have to question why 6 years late they have not improved at all and learnt from this

 

[FastAndTheCurious7]

I think sometimes people (no one in particular here) struggle with the thinking things are “either or” when 2 things can be true at the same time as in - I don’t believe the scapegoat theory in this case but that doesn’t mean I don’t think it happens within the NHS (or anywhere else). Likewise I don’t believe the Facebook searching was innocent in this case but I do know there are occasions Facebook searching is innocent & doesn’t mean anything. Also, I think the hospital massively failed in so many ways but I also think she was possibly committing murder…it doesn’t have to be either or, it can be both

I feel like you have just been in my brain and taken my exact thought but worded it in a much better way than I could

 

[MmmB777]

I don’t necessarily believe the scapegoat theory but I do beleive the department and the trust should be held accountable to some extent
This all happened in 2016 , care was questionable , staff levels were horrendous but yet here we are 2022 , 6 years down the line and the care, training and staffing levels are still at the same level they were previously . You have to question why 6 years late they have not improved at all and learnt from this

Have you heard of a little thing called the Tory government sorry should have resisted and don’t want to derail with that debate!

 

[FastAndTheCurious7]

I honestly don’t see how anybody can think she’s innocent.

For me it’s not that I think she’s innocent, more that I just wish she was because the thought that someone could be so evil makes my heart sad

 

[IGiveUp22]

For me it’s not that I think she’s innocent, more that I just wish she was because the thought that someone could be so evil makes my heart sad

I actually think this also plays into the reason why it went on undetected for a while. I honestly don’t think anyone in that hospital, even if they thought “that’s a bit weird”, thought that anyone, never mind LL, would be causing these deaths intentionally. It’s such a horrendous thing to think anyone is capable of that I think you’d rather find another reason, even if it appears farfetched (scapegoat theory IMO) because that’s better than thinking she did what she is accused of

 

[stardust1]

@stardust1 oh absolutely, people are made scapegoats all the time and the NHS and social care in particular have been known for it. Look at Baby P, was it Sharon Shoesmith? But yes, I think with Lucy Letby even this would be taking scapegoating too far when you look at amount of agencies involved, amount of time to gather evidence etc, costs etc.

I just can’t see past why they’d want to involve the police after they got away by the skin of their teeth. I don’t doubt for one second the hospital was piss poor but NICU isn’t a death sentence now and if it was down to poorly trained staff/equipment etc how did no other nurses get caught up in all this? After all these years they must be pretty confident on their statistics to have pinpointed it to LL. I think they would take extra care after what happened with Rebecca Leighton. It all seems too big of a coincidence and how many coincidences do we have to see before someone thinks there’s something seriously wrong? If it was a case of they wanted Lucy gone wouldn’t an unfair dismissal tribunal be easier than doing all this?

 

[Nelly's mum]

I've been following this thread, this is my first post, so hi to everyone on the thread.
I live local to COCH and this case has been a building for years. I am surprised there is so much debate on the thread about LL's Facebook searches, it may be dodgy and unprofessional conduct but it's not proof of anything. Same with LL's handwritten post it note - it is a but is not proof. She is accused of multiple murders so there is going to be much more evidence or the case would never have been brought to court.
For me, barring any 'caught red handed' evidence, the circumstantial evidence will be telling - when they crunch the numbers and weigh the statistics and probability of LL being involved with each baby/their equipment around the time of their collapse and passing away. Coincidence can only take you so far.

 

[wishiniwasskinny]

My partner did some work for a criminal defense lawyer last year (he’s nothing to do with legal stuff) and he basically had access to a lot of emails from clients and all I can say is that yeah, there were a lot of emails from people admitting to doing the criminal things they’d been accused of and this lawyer would still take on their cases. A lot of it is about getting someone the most lenient possible sentence tbf.

Exactly. When someone is defended in a court of law it is their legal’s job to give them good advice to get the best possible sentence IF they are guilty. So they will be advised to plead Guilty if their legal thinks (even if they don’t know) that they don’t have a good case to be deemed innocent.
Or to argue mitigating factors in relation to the type of sentence they then get.
However ultimately if the person decides to go to trial their representation has to allow them to make a choice and then represent the case as best they can.

I do find her defences use of language in describing her to be interesting. I think If he truly thought she was innocent of ANY kind of misdeed he would have used the term.

 

[abelleza]

I don’t necessarily believe the scapegoat theory but I do beleive the department and the trust should be held accountable to some extent
This all happened in 2016 , care was questionable , staff levels were horrendous but yet here we are 2022 , 6 years down the line and the care, training and staffing levels are still at the same level they were previously . You have to question why 6 years late they have not improved at all and learnt from this

Because it’s the NHS? The NHS is a sinking ship. It’s a mixture of lack of staff, funds being misappropriated, too much money being spent on managerial staff who sit around twiddling their thumbs and patting each other on the back all day, whilst front line staff struggle to offer basic level care with broken equipment and everyone doing the work of three people. Of course the vast majority of NHS staff are good people trying their best, but it NHS culture will never change because the front line staff aren’t prioritised.
When I first qualified as a nurse and started my first job, I was full of ideas and hope which I took to management. Anything that made it past my managers (which was not much) was quickly poopood by upper management. I even remember writing a datix about a patient incident and being told to delete it because it ‘wasn’t appropriate’…more like it was too much hard work to deal with.

I know this is side tracking a little bit and like someone else said, two things can be true at the same time; LL could’ve killed those babies AND the hospital management allowed it to happen, over and over and over again. But the NHS will never change, things will never improve unless there is a full redo of the entire structure of the organisation.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

Been reading (where I can) but not yet commented.
I'm really hopeful she's innocent. I cannot fathom out why she would allow this to drag on for 6 months if she had done it! Knowing she could plead guilty and not put herself and her own parents through this.

I'm a bit of a FB lurker, probably if I was pulled up on a charge, my FB searches could tell a very strange tale however I'm not being charged for anything! Playing devil's advocate here, maybe she was just a caring nurse who genuinely wondered how the family were doing on Christmas day, or on an anniversary?

I too would shout from the rooftops if I was innocent and not reply no comment.

Of course the note and the sightings of her stood over a cot are more dubious. It's not looking good in that sense.
The next few months will be very up and down for everyone!

Ted Bundy pleaded not guilty. Pleading not guilty doesn't mean someone's not guilty. If she's guilty what does she have to lose by pleading not guilty?

 

[stardust1]

The NHS hospital isn’t on trail only LL. So what happens if LL is found guilty but this trial brings to light failings of the hospital? Will anything happen to them at a later date?