Lucy Letby #5

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But handover sheet have medical informations about the patient.
Yeah but accidentally taking a handover sheet home
is easily done as we keep them in our pockets during shift, but to take someone’s entire or even partial medical notes home is almost impossible to do accidentally and would show intent. Nurses accidentally taking hand overs home happens every day.
 
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The chances are close to zero
Is it though? If the hospital was as short staffed as it was reported to be, agency staff coming and going, people off sick, on annual leave - then she could pretty much be the only consistency if she was working 50+ hour weeks.
 
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She had handover sheets for babies that weren’t assigned to her - how does that happen?
That does appear random. Also ignoring allocated tasks/shift allocation and attaching herself to other patients. If I had been the shift coordinator I’d be suspicious firstly because it screams of performance issues/attitude problems where that keeps happening.
 
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Of course, nepotism happens everywhere but when it leads to lives being put at risk because you can’t report someones incompetence as their manager also happens to be their literal parent (which is what happened where I worked, and this wasn’t a failing hospital either), it becomes a huge issue. That’s not human nature, that’s something that literally should not be allowed to happen at any point in any healthcare situation.
I totally agree. It does happen in lots of healthcare situations though. Maybe even more so than the NHS. A staff member should not have a family member as their line manager. Anywhere.
 
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Yeah but accidentally taking a handover sheet home
is easily done as we keep them in our pockets during shift, but to take someone’s entire or even partial medical notes home is almost impossible to do accidentally and would show intent. Nurses accidentally taking hand overs home happens every day.
I guess though if it happened regularly for children not allocated to her definitely odd?
 
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I guess though if it happened regularly for children not allocated to her definitely odd?
Im an adult nurse so might not be relevant but where I work we print off handovers for the whole ward. It enables us to still know about other nurses patients when they go on their break or if we answer the patients buzzers, and means the HCA’s know if people are NBM or what cares they require etc…no idea if it’d be the same in a neonates ward though .
 
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Yeah but accidentally taking a handover sheet home
is easily done as we keep them in our pockets during shift, but to take someone’s entire or even partial medical notes home is almost impossible to do accidentally and would show intent. Nurses accidentally taking hand overs home happens every day.
Would they have several at home? How long would they hang on to them? Where would you keep them and why? Over the space of years do you think there’d be quite a few opportunities to get rid of them? Smacks of trophies to me. From most accounts on here when nurses realise they have them they quickly sort it out!
 
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Would they have several at home? How long would they hang on to them? Where would you keep them and why? Over the space of years do you think there’d be quite a few opportunities to get rid of them? Smacks of trophies to me. From most accounts on here when nurses realise they have them they quickly sort it out!
Oh yes absolutely, you get rid of them asap as it’s a sackable offence to take one off hospital grounds or even drop it out of your pocket whilst on your ward, it obviously has very confidential information on it. It’s extremely weird that she kept them for years no doubt about it.
 
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Im an adult nurse so might not be relevant but where I work we print off handovers for the whole ward. It enables us to still know about other nurses patients when they go on their break or if we answer the patients buzzers, and means the HCA’s know if people are NBM or what cares they require etc…no idea if it’d be the same in a neonates ward though .
I’m in mental health. We do the same in inpatients. There was the odd occasion where one of us might accidentally take one home, but then you’d bring it back and shred it. It was rare for that to happen too because we’d only print out one or two.
 
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Is it though? If the hospital was as short staffed as it was reported to be, agency staff coming and going, people off sick, on annual leave - then she could pretty much be the only consistency if she was working 50+ hour weeks.
I don’t buy that. A proper in-depth statistical analysis would have been done to highlight percentages of probability. Some one on here put it better than me so I’ll include a screenshot.
The European Working Time directive would also limit her hours.
Even if she worked 48hrs it’s a 24/7 service which is 168 hours per week of cover. That would be for one patient only but obviously there were multiple patients.
 

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She had handover sheets for babies that weren’t assigned to her - how does that happen?
The only thing I can link to that is
1)she may have it for if she's covered the nurse for a break
2)she's been a float nurse part of her shift & she has hand overs for everyone.
3)there's just no need for them to have them
 
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I don’t buy that. A proper in-depth statistical analysis would have been done to highlight percentages of probability. Some one on here put it better than me so I’ll include a screenshot.
The European Working Time directive would also limit her hours.
Even if she worked 48hrs it’s a 24/7 service which is 168 hours per week of cover. That would be for one patient only but obviously there were multiple patients.
The European working time directive wouldn’t limit her hours. It just means she can’t be forced to work over those hours but if she agrees to working them then she can.

 
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Does anyone here know about bbcode for the wiki? I’m struggling with fixing a problem with the contents table. If I click on ‘defence’ in the contents for the child B section, it’s taking me to the defence section in child a. Presumably because it’s the same title and it just takes you to the first one.

i could get round it with defence - child a, defence - child b etc but the contents table is pretty wordy as it is and might make it difficult to view as I’d have to do it for all the other sub-categories too like police interviews
 

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The European working time directive wouldn’t limit her hours. It just means she can’t be forced to work over those hours but if she agrees to working them then she can.

What is the NHS policy on the EWT directive as it pertains to nurses?
I’m pretty sure they would have to stick to rest day times between shifts too.
Regardless, as it’s 168 hours per one or two patients per week then there is no way she could be on shift, never mind the designated nurse for for random bad deaths or incidents.
 
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Im an adult nurse so might not be relevant but where I work we print off handovers for the whole ward. It enables us to still know about other nurses patients when they go on their break or if we answer the patients buzzers, and means the HCA’s know if people are NBM or what cares they require etc…no idea if it’d be the same in a neonates ward though .
This also happens on paediatric wards Ive worked on (including PICU).
 
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I don’t buy that. A proper in-depth statistical analysis would have been done to highlight percentages of probability. Some one on here put it better than me so I’ll include a screenshot.
The European Working Time directive would also limit her hours.
Even if she worked 48hrs it’s a 24/7 service which is 168 hours per week of cover. That would be for one patient only but obviously there were multiple patients.
That's what I wonder, if the defence will bring this up with more in-depth statistics. The prosecution were very sensationalist with the claim but as with the note, it may well not be all it seems.
 
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Can I ask something that may be totally irrelevant/stupid but.. is it possible to somehow merge that kind of statistical likelihood about her presence every time with the statistics on these poor tiny babies chances - eg prematurity statistics for certain ages/weights/conditions. So there is then another element of statistical chance? I am probably not explaining that very well sorry!
Yes definitely. It’s been 7 years since my degree so I remember duck all now 😅 but you can get the probability of a baby dying at all in NICU, and the probability of it happening under a particular person (should be even across all nurses if random). Think it’s Bayes Theorem? There’ll be way better explanations for it online. I’m sure they’ll be doing some sophisticated stats in the trial.
 
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What is the NHS policy on the EWT directive as it pertains to nurses?
I think you need to sign up to the EWT, if not you can work as many hours as you want. All I know in regards to working limitations is you have to have had 11 hours break between shifts (which doesn’t happen as if you stay late on one shift then have one the next day it’s less than 11 hours lol, I’ve worked 7am-11pm before then been in at 7 next morning, but you do have a responsibility not to work if you feel your quality of care will be affected). I think you have a day off between finishing nights and starting days but not sure if that’s a legal requirement or just my hospital (again that also doesn’t happen).
 
Does anyone here know about bbcode for the wiki? I’m struggling with fixing a problem with the contents table. If I click on ‘defence’ in the contents for the child B section, it’s taking me to the defence section in child a. Presumably because it’s the same title and it just takes you to the first one.

i could get round it with defence - child a, defence - child b etc but the contents table is pretty wordy as it is and might make it difficult to view as I’d have to do it for all the other sub-categories too like police interviews
Is it doing it for the other duplicated or reused words for different babies? If not, then you might just a spurious piece of code that you can’t actually see and what I would do in that case is add the word again and just add an extra letter to differentiate it from other same word links (maybe an s) first off so you know it’s a link to the correct word then take the s off and try again. If it works then you can do it. But, it maybe that bbcode won’t allow duplicated words to links. That said, from a superficial glance it looks like it works with other duplicated words. So, it is likely to be some code you can’t see contaminating your link and the best fix for that is to start that link again.

I can write html code but I’m chronically ill and so can’t be relied upon. Today, I have a bad head and wouldn’t attempt to try and fix it. But, if when I feel better you still have an error I could have a look at it.

sorry I can’t be more helpful.
 
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