Lucy Letby #5

[MmmB777]

Yes definitely. It’s been 7 years since my degree so I remember duck all now but you can get the probability of a baby dying at all in NICU, and the probability of it happening under a particular person (should be even across all nurses if random). Think it’s Bayes Theorem? There’ll be way better explanations for it online. I’m sure they’ll be doing some sophisticated stats in the trial.

Really interesting. I would imagine the picture would look extremely damning. Thanks.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

That's what I wonder, if the defence will bring this up with more in-depth statistics. The prosecution were very sensationalist with the claim but as with the note, it may well not be all it seems.

I think the prosecution will bring it up with more in-depth statistics.

 

[crumpets2]

Just going back to the handover - in my trust everyone has handover together and a print out from electronic systems. Other trusts I’ve been have handover individually and made own notes. Not defending her but many of us nurses on here have said we’ve probably taken one home by accident, the difference is taking it back straight away for confidential waste.
What I’m trying to say is yes it’s weird that she has them at home from however many years prior but but not completely impossible to have taken one home accidentally

 

[Lucyxxxx]

The fact she was charged with one murder and then it got thrown out is throwing me abit. As everyone's said its a high threshold to charge in the first place. So if they got that one wrong, what else have they got wrong?

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Not sure I don’t work there anymore. I always though the only exceptions were airline and transport fields. Could be wrong though!

I’m not sure either to be honest. I’m pretty sure it will be different for Drs.
I think that, in such a high pressured ward where accuracy is key, there would have to be some guidelines.
I would think that, by the time she was under suspicion, they would really be keeping an eye on her hours.

 

[stardust1]

The fact she was charged with one murder and then it got thrown out is throwing me abit. As everyone's said its a high threshold to charge in the first place. So if they got that one wrong, what else have they got wrong?

Just because they got it wrong doesn’t mean she didn’t do it though. It’s quite hard to prove.

 

[Tofino]

Is it doing it for the other duplicated or reused words for different babies? If not, then you might just a spurious piece of code that you can’t actually see and what I would do in that case is add the word again and just add an extra letter to differentiate it from other same word links (maybe an s) first off so you know it’s a link to the correct word then take the s off and try again. If it works then you can do it. But, it maybe that bbcode won’t allow duplicated words to links. That said, from a superficial glance it looks like it works with other duplicated words. So, it is likely to be some code you can’t see contaminating your link and the best fix for that is to start that link again.

I can write html code but I’m chronically ill and so can’t be relied upon. Today, I have a bad head and wouldn’t attempt to try and fix it. But, if when I feel better you still have an error I could have a look at it.

sorry I can’t be more helpful.

yes it’s doing it to any where there is a duplicate and on any child, always takes it to the first one, child a. I’m using the header code (h3) or (h4) for the headers that creates the table.

I think it just can’t handle if you use the same header more than once. But I’m not sure what to use instead or if I just need to make them all unique

thanks for replying, it has helped

 

[Borntorun]

What is the NHS policy on the EWT directive as it pertains to nurses?
I’m pretty sure they would have to stick to rest day times between shifts too.
Regardless, as it’s 168 hours per one or two patients per week then there is no way she could be on shift, never mind the designated nurse for for random bad deaths or incidents.

Nah, the NHS will have you as much time as you’re willing to work I’ve seen people do 6 x 12.5 hour shifts a week, which is nearly being there 50% of the time

 

[mdizzl3]

We’ll know then won’t we, if it’s a trophy. If she has a seriously dysfunctional and disturbed personality. I really hope not. As a nurse it’s dreadful to think people like that sometimes get into the profession and hurt our patients and sometimes the most vulnerable ones. It’s just awful to contemplate.

It makes sense though, people who love lording it over vulnerable people won’t want to WFH in some professional office job. They’ll go for jobs like teacher, doctor, carer etc where they can lord it over vulnerable people day in day out. Both the girl who bullied me at school, and my husband’s abusive/controlling ex are now primary teachers!

 

[avabella]

Nah, the NHS will have you as much time as you’re willing to work I’ve seen people do 6 x 12.5 hour shifts a week, which is nearly being there 50% of the time

Same as people on oil rigs etc, working 12 hour shifts for 3 weeks in a row. It will be really interesting to see what kind of hours she was doing.

 

[Gingerfattie]

It’s definitely going to be a rollercoaster of a trial. I started off thinking she had to be guilty. Now of course I’ve realised we don’t know the half of what’s to come, hence why there’s 6 months of evidence to hear. Like everyone keeps saying you just can’t imagine what those parents are going through. I also really feel for all the staff having to work in that service whilst those infants died it must’ve traumatised them too.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

I think you need to sign up to the EWT, if not you can work as many hours as you want. All I know in regards to working limitations is you have to have had 11 hours break between shifts (which doesn’t happen as if you stay late on one shift then have one the next day it’s less than 11 hours lol, I’ve worked 7am-11pm before then been in at 7 next morning, but you do have a responsibility not to work if you feel your quality of care will be affected). I think you have a day off between finishing nights and starting days but not sure if that’s a legal requirement or just my hospital (again that also doesn’t happen).

I worked in a different healthcare setting and everyone was very aware of the rules of the EWT directive. Occasionally the rules were breached but not often.
Surely, if you’re aware of the rules and you still consent to doing it then some of the onus must be on you? I’d be pointing out to my manager, by email, that it was against the rules and then if they still wanted me to do it the onus would be on them.

 

[Gingerfattie]

It makes sense though, people who love lording it over vulnerable people won’t want to WFH in some professional office job. They’ll go for jobs like teacher, doctor, carer etc where they can lord it over vulnerable people day in day out. Both the girl who bullied me at school, and my husband’s abusive/controlling ex are now primary teachers!

Yes definitely…jobs like this, the police etc, if you’re that kind of person, and you want power and control over the vulnerable, to exploit, it’s a great way to do it

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Nah, the NHS will have you as much time as you’re willing to work I’ve seen people do 6 x 12.5 hour shifts a week, which is nearly being there 50% of the time

But surely it’s your choice to work above your contracted hours so the onus is on you.

 

[Nelly's mum]

The fact she was charged with one murder and then it got thrown out is throwing me abit. As everyone's said its a high threshold to charge in the first place. So if they got that one wrong, what else have they got wrong?

That they did not pursue a conviction for that charge doesn't mean they got anything wrong - it just means they didn't have sufficient evidence to secure a conviction.
The bar is set really high, if there is not a good likelihood of a successful prosecution they will not proceed with the charge.

 

[abelleza]

I worked in a different healthcare setting and everyone was very aware of the rules of the EWT directive. Occasionally the rules were breached but not often.
Surely, if you’re aware of the rules and you still consent to doing it then some of the onus must be on you? I’d be pointing out to my manager, by email, that it was against the rules and then if they still wanted me to do it the onus would be on them.

Oh yes, the onus would be on the person who did overtime BUT people feel pressured bc if they don’t take overtime then there’s no one there to look after the patients. When I did that 7-11 shift I couldn’t leave because I had a patient who extremely unwell and there was only one nurse for an entire ward on the night shift - what was I meant to do? Walk out and leave one nurse to look after an entire ward and a very poorly patient (they finally sent someone to help at 11 hence me leaving) The NICU in this case was at 23% staffing capacity so I imagine people were pressured to do overtime. It shouldn’t happen but it does, hospitals are desperate, screaming out for staff.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Just because they got it wrong doesn’t mean she didn’t do it though. It’s quite hard to prove.

It wasn’t thrown out as it didn’t go through the due court process. I think the CPS or prosecution can decide to drop the case as there is not enough evidence to proceed, in that particular case the baby was transferred to another hospital and died there.
It has no bearing on the other cases as in these instances it is thought there is enough evidence to proceed.

 

[IGiveUp22]

I do really struggle with this though, the idea the hospital couldn’t possibly fathom it being intentional. I keep going over and over it….
According to the prosecution

Ravi Jayaram, a paediatric consultant, had been “uncomfortable” that Letby was alone with the 12-week premature baby (baby K) because he had “started to notice a coincidence between unexplained deaths, serious collapses and the presence of Lucy Letby”,

Then three months after the death of Baby K, in April 2016, Letby had been moved to day shifts “because the consultants were concerned about the correlation between her presence and unexpected deaths and life-threatening episodes on the night shifts”

Okay we have two scenarios here. 1. They expected intentional foul play so moved her to days to test their theory keep eye on her etc etc (so so wrong) Or 2. As many suggest, they thought it was accidental and incompetence on her part. However, if they thought the latter, would they then put her in charge of a student nurse during the day shift, as also stated by the prosecution.

They can’t have it both ways. Oh it must be incompetence but that same incompetent nurse can supervise our students?

I have mulled this over though, and think the way it played out and was allowed to continue was perhaps one or two consultants had their suspicions. They raised concerns but were knocked back from someone higher up. Eventually someone agreed to move her to days, as a way of pacifying those who had highlighted concerns, so essentially trying to make out they are doing something, and to stop any allegations leaving the trust. Those higher up didn’t take either possibilities seriously , incompetence or purposeful, so while they wanted to appear they were doing something they equally allowed letby to carry on as normal, including supervising student nurses. Someone somewhere imo has intentionally tried to sweep this under the carpet. Like there were two separate sides pulling against each other. One camp who thought Letby was behind all this and the other camp who wanted to avoid any scandal or just genuinely didn’t believe it to be true. I hope that person ,whoever they are, is held accountable after all this (if of course Letby is guilty). Because whether or not they believed the scenario, question marks were obviously raised before letby was moved to days. You don’t take those risks with such vulnerable lives, it’s always better to be safe than sorry. If letby is the cold blooded killer the prosecution is making her out to be, the day babies, had any seniors gone through the correct channels instead of keeping it in house, would more than likely still be here. So many failings it is hard to comprehend.

Yes I completely agree with this scenario. I believe it was suggested by a few people & they were ignored by those higher not wanting to draw attention to the failures of the hospital. I just meant before that I imagine looking back, more people probably weren’t comfortable with certain things but at the time they pushed that thought out of their head. I do believe initially it was thought to be incompetence but like you say, why they’d then put her in charge of a student?! Baffling

 

[Emmelina Ball]

Oh yes, the onus would be on the person who did overtime BUT people feel pressured bc if they don’t take overtime then there’s no one there to look after the patients. When I did that 7-11 shift I couldn’t leave because I had a patient who extremely unwell and there was only one nurse for an entire ward on the night shift - what was I meant to do? Walk out and leave one nurse to look after an entire ward and a very poorly patient (they finally sent someone to help at 11 hence me leaving) The NICU in this case was at 23% staffing capacity so I imagine people were pressured to do overtime. It shouldn’t happen but it does, hospitals are desperate, screaming out for staff.

I imagine it’s got even worse after the pandemic and Brexit (I know Lucy was pre both of these I’m just saying in general). It’s scary what goes on. If that unit was operating at 23% capacity it begs the question should it have been allowed to be open? Is that safe for patients?!! Shouldn’t they have been required to go to a unit elsewhere that was appropriately staffed! So many questions.

 

[Haveyouanywool]

Oh yes, the onus would be on the person who did overtime BUT people feel pressured bc if they don’t take overtime then there’s no one there to look after the patients. When I did that 7-11 shift I couldn’t leave because I had a patient who extremely unwell and there was only one nurse for an entire ward on the night shift - what was I meant to do? Walk out and leave one nurse to look after an entire ward and a very poorly patient (they finally sent someone to help at 11 hence me leaving) The NICU in this case was at 23% staffing capacity so I imagine people were pressured to do overtime. It shouldn’t happen but it does, hospitals are desperate, screaming out for staff.

I can see how you’d feel you had to stay, as you were already there, in that instance. I would have done the same.
I used to feel not pressure, but an obligation to cover other shifts. Then I just stopped doing it. I realised it wasn’t my problem.