Gender discussions

[bubbletea123]

I don’t identify as anything, that’s my point. I am a female, I am 5’5. That is my material reality.


And no one can possibly ‘feel’ like a man because what on earth does a man ‘feel’ like? Do they all feel the same? What is that feeling? It’s nothing. Every man probably feels something different Because being a man is about being male. Nothing more or less. It’s not a feeling it’s a sex.



absolutely. Even when on testosterone reducing hormones at their lowest level, it still remains at 5x a female level. And then there’s the height, the lung capacity, muscle size, strength etc. The Martina Navratilova documentary on the bbc was really interesting on this.
The IOC have brought in rules in 2016 that have allowed transwomen to compete. Look up Laurel Hubbard, the retired mid 40’s weight lifter who is now smashing all the woman’s records. It’s actually so fucking sad because a woman has lost her world record. It’s not fair.

There is also Rachel McKinnon/Veronica Ivy that is trans and a cyclist. She has beat women now in competitions and it is honestly a load of shite. You can tell by looking at her how she was built like a man, just by looking at her thighs compared to a natural born woman. As far as I am concerned she looks pretty damn manly in stature. But she goes on about how she should be allowed to compete in women's races. She changed her name from Rachel to Veronica last year after there was controversy about her competing...she apparently did it so it wouldn't show up in the search terms, sneaky witch. But it still does.

Google Search

 

[SqualorVictoria]

My transphobe comment was towards the comments I saw saying trans women aren’t women and the people bringing up extremely rare occurrences in order to trash them. To me that is transphobia. I don’t throw the word around lightly. But I believe they are women and have a right to be identified as such. It takes nothing from me. I used to see trans people quite often through my old work and I’d hate for them to be constantly told they aren’t women or men.

Also no I don’t think women need to mute their own experiences to make room. I’ve never felt unable to speak about my experiences as a woman because of trans women and if one made me genuinely feel that way I would call them out. Honestly I’m much more offended by the whole “BUT PERIODS AND BABIES!!” argument

And I stand by the fact you shouldn’t have kids if you’d have a problem with them being trans. Not sure how that is horrible.

Extremely rare occurrences? I posted a video that had 70 examples. How many is an acceptable number to happen before women can finally be listened to when a lot of us are saying we would prefer to keep our safe spaces female only?

I'm not going to tell a trans person who identifies as female that they're not a woman , let alone "constantly" as you say. But the bottom line is, they are not the exact same as biological women. Trans women are trans women.

And as for your comments about people having kids, it's not for you to comment on other peoples procreative choices.

 

[jewelkitty]

Woman: expresses an opinion in a calm and measured way without using hateful or derogatory language.

Almost everyone else: OMG shut the fuck up bitch/cunt/hag/terf lalala we’re not listening.

Twitter is a hell of a place.

This is why I'm annoyed that we're getting called the nasty ones here on this forum, none of us have gone anywhere near that sort of language, and this is one of the few places we can speak up about our concerns without being called a wretched cunt, a massive bitch, a vile rotten hag, being told to suck men's dicks, etc etc.

And before anyone says oh these are just isolated incidents on Twitter, that first tweet has 18k likes.

 

[jewelkitty]

Honestly, South Park got it spot on:


''A woman is someone with a female body and any personality, not a female personality and any body. Any other definition is sexism''

 

[Mycuppatea]

out of the few trans people who are speaking out against the extremism of the movement most were transmen. The further I get into this the scarier it gets. This is 10000% a male led movement. Been looking on twitter and am disgusted by the cotton ceiling concept that's been mentioned here. Seen a bit about women and transmen but its practically non-existant. I don't know who is a lesbian on this thread but the abuse you're getting from some people leaves me speechless. The logic behind it makes no sense.

You know what's funny? lesbians are expected to date transwomen but ask all the straightmen who are shoving down our throats TWAW (what the fuck would you know about it?) if they'd date a transwoman and you'll get crickets.

I can't cope with the idea that in 2020 there are people who consider themselves liberal or woke or whatever term, but dont prioritise the concept of complete and utter consent regarding sex. Nobody should be expected to have sex with anyone they don't 100% freely want to have sex with. Maybe it's because I'm a rape survivor but the thought of a woman who only wants to have sex with women feeling pressure to engage with male genitalia makes me feel physically sick. I don't think anyone should feel obliged to have sex with anyone they're not fully freely consenting to. How is that controversial?

 

[mindlessness]

Also no I don’t think women need to mute their own experiences to make room. I’ve never felt unable to speak about my experiences as a woman because of trans women and if one made me genuinely feel that way I would call them out. Honestly I’m much more offended by the whole “BUT PERIODS AND BABIES!!” argument

You're right. Womanhood isn't just periods and babies. It's a lived experience from the day you are born - when the dr looks at you and declares "it's a girl!" - until the day you die. I have shared this before, but not sure if you saw it? Worth a read I think.

What is a woman?

Traduction Française Again and again I hear people criticise women generally, and feminists in particular, for not accepting transwomen as “real” women and for “excluding” them. Trans people are op…

thefeministahood.wordpress.com

 

[BostonFernGreen]

Saying trans women aren’t women is transphobic to me. Constantly bringing up a couple of cases where there’s been a questionable person accessing women’s toilets as if it’s a common occurrence. As you say though there are good points in here too but some people are just horrible

I am also sick of being told women have periods and give birth like that defines a woman.

If a woman wants to have a child they almost certainly will need a career break. That shapes a life. Having PMS or PMDD or endometriosis shapes a life. Being raped shapes a life. Being paid less than male counterparts dictates a woman’s resources and independence.

You’re sick of it are you? How cool and impressive that you can rise above the material reality of being a woman.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Transsexuals (the old school lot) have been using women’s toilets for decades. The thing is they literally just got on with it and never kicked up a fuss or went out of their way to make women feel uncomfortable in their own spaces. They really did just want to pee, so yes they mostly went unnoticed.

Which is why it’s a bit weird that it’s suddenly a big deal about how women MUST accept anyone who identifies as a woman in our spaces. We kinda already did that with toilets anyway, it was kind of a mutual understanding in a way. But they’re taking it too far now with demands to take spots on women’s sports teams and in women’s shelters and wanting to go into women’s prisons where some of the most vulnerable women in society reside. Not to mention there does seem to have been an ‘explosion’ in the trans population compared to even 10 years ago so males in womens spaces is becoming a lot more common and a solution needs to be found before the issue snowballs and women feel alienated from their own spaces.

For some though unisex loo’s aren’t enough even though that’s the most logical solution (along side women’s & mens). It’s almost like some of the extreme TRA’s today WANT to be seen in the women’s loos. They want it to be a big deal and for women to feel uncomfortable and to possibly say something or maybe even just look at them wrong so they can feel victimised. They find it validating. It’s really quite strange.

Idk, thinking out loud really and waffling a bit. I’m under 30 (just!) so I’m not sure if I count as ‘young’ but I feel pretty alone in my views on this issue in real life. Either people are silent or they are of the ‘transwomen are women and I won’t take any other answer’ ilk. I know a straight man who is big on pronouns and Wears a he/him shirt, it’s honestly cringe. I respect pronouns but it’s obvious he goes by he/him he doesn’t need a shirt. I remember talking with a friend about it a couple of years back on a basic level and we agreed you can’t literally become the opposite sex but it’s not come up since. A lot of people are scared into silence by the extreme trans activists and by even normal people who genuinely believe trans women are the same as women and will call you a bigot if you state any thing different. I also agree about this being somewhat of a first world problem. That’s not to discount how trans people feel but I do think there is a social contagion element to all this leading to a higher number of people identifying as trans than there otherwise would have been.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Doesn't make sense if it wasn't real then why would you want to transition in the first place? -this is why I'm confused, if I'm not understanding this correctly someone feel free to explain it to me

I think maybe they just want women to not acknowledge biological sex because it puts a spotlight on how they themselves aren’t real women at all. Biological differences between men and women exist whether they like it or not. They want us to accept they are women and that’s that whilst also trying to force women into a subcategory by trying to make ‘cis’ become a thing. It really does seem like the end goal for some of these people is to take the word ‘woman’ away from well, real women.

Instead of working and campaigning to create their own safe spaces like women once had to (no one did it for us), it’s easier to take what already exists. But to do that successfully all women need to be silenced and submissive. Thankfully we are not.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Nope, we don't say it on Twitter because it's notorious for being a cesspool of an echo chamber. And I don't fancy being called a cunt that needs to be raped, thanks.

You STILL have not countered any of our very valid arguments on here, so that says it all really. TRAs work off of pure emotion and not logic.

Anyone who uses a term like "Karen" tells me all I need to know about them. Oh and yes Twitter, the place that is so renowned for it's nuanced debate

Also, the poster has missed the point (as per) that many people here are afraid to speak on it.

 

[jewelkitty]

Wow. What an incredible read!
Shame I just opened twitter and this was the first thing that came up View attachment 150852

Jfc, it's definitely a trait of trans activists to stick their head in the sand. Fucking pathetic.

I'm absolutely going to share her essay on my Facebook now.

Also Eddie Redmayne has jumped on the bandwagon with Daniel Radcliffe.
He says he doesn't want to speak on behalf of the transgender community but he has noooo problem speaking for women everywhere.

 

[maytoseptember]

Has anyone checked my chromosomes? Nope. But I’ve produced two children so can safely assume that my body developed down the XX axis.

I’ve seen this argument rolled out before - “how many of us really know our chromosomes?!” It’s not a very clever argument. You know what your chromosomes are because your genitals developed either one way or the other in utero, and then your biological sex was observed at birth. There is no need to check chromosomes.

The world isn’t full of undiagnosed intersex people. Intersex isn’t the the same as transgender anyway.

Intersex conditions are very very rare, and it’s equally rare for them not to be diagnosed at birth (Caster Semenya, 800m athlete and XY chromosomes, is the exception to the rule, but CS was born black and poor in apartheid South Africa, so you can understand how that might have happened). So yes, I think we all DO know our chromosomes because that is almost never up for debate. There are not scores of people in the world walking around blissfully unaware that their chromosomes are wonky.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Thank you

Unfriending someone for daring to put their head above the parapet. Could they not have offered their own view or started a discussion. So 2020

 

[RosePetals]

@RosePetals I understand that some women have been made to feel worried and scared about this possibility.

But if a man wants to go into women's toilets or changing rooms they can do that now. They can just walk in.

True but they can be challenged and removed. If self ID came in as law they would be allowed to stay there as long as they claimed to identify as a woman. Also certain places such as refuges are heavily protected to stop men gaining access. And of course sports (although this is a bit more variable and is currently being challenged), awards, placements, scholarships, programmes, clubs, gym sessions etc that are women only for valid reasons would be open to any man who said they were a woman under self ID law.

 

[PoleStar]

YES!

It’s rage inducing to be made to feel that a fear of males in my personal space can have me painted as a “TERF” or some horrendous bigot... even more rage inducing when said strong view point comes from early 20s straight middle class white boy. Who knows and understands F*CK ALL about the feelings, challenges, fears and concerns of women.

Precisely. I have received both physical and verbal abuse from various men over the years and know how utterly gut- wrenching and frightening it feels. I have large breasts and I'm blonde and some men seem to think that these characteristics make me fair game. I've had my bum groped on the escalators in a busy shopping centre, I've had my breasts inappropriately touched at a very busy racecourse and an ex-boyfriend bullied me into having sex when I didn't want to, I've been verbally abused by men shouting "hello big tits" in the street. I therefore do NOT want men who say they feel like a woman invading women only spaces, these men could very easily be predators looking for an easy victim. Fortunately my husband is a wonderful person who was brought up to respect and value women and I know many, many other men do too, so please don't think I hate men, I don't!

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

You just know that those kicking off haven’t even bothered to read her statement. Anyone who has read it couldn’t possibly say she is a hateful transphobe. I shouldn’t be but I’m shocked at the vitriol she is getting. People are acting like she called for all trans people to be put in the stocks or something.

Controversial but if she has said something racist, I doubt she would have got this much backlash. She would have got some given the current social climate, but not on this scale. The reaction of some people is totally ridiculous literally throwing the baby out with the bath water based on assumptions of what they think she wrote not what she actually wrote.

The people trying to make this a race issue by calling her a white privileged woman are irritating too. This isn’t a race issue this is a WOMENS issue and that includes all women from all cultures and backgrounds. To have such a powerful and well known woman fighting our corner is absolutely huge. She doesn’t need our support but we certainly appreciate hers.

Also fuck body shop. They’re never getting my money again.

 

[Mycuppatea]

Ĺ

Wow. What an incredible read!
Shame I just opened twitter and this was the first thing that came up View attachment 150852

Yes because it's definitely not problematic to dismiss the ideas of a woman, imply she should be or could be denied access to her phone like a child, dismiss her achievements tthat have created her platform and say "listen to this man instead". What is this, the 1950s?

 

[chocolate choux]

Totally random but tonight a Tweet popped up in my timeline about men wearing crop tops. The initial Tweet said something along the lines of ‘men should wear crop tops more often’; someone I follow had liked another user responding in a defensive way saying that he’d worn one last week and got harassed by a man. He made several more Tweets ranting about this

On one hand I thought fair enough. The user was a gay man, there was obvious homophobia to him being harassed. Regardless of anything, people should feel safe enough to wear what they want in public. I do support him

But it does highlight privilege. As a woman, I’ve been street harassed even while wearing jeans and a big coat. We don’t have to dress flamboyantly to attract negative male attention (though God help us if we do). We don’t have the option of throwing on some boring clothes to ensure we don’t get harassed. No matter what we do, just by being female we are ‘inviting attention‘

Just made me feel a bit sad really

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Repeating the mantra "trans women are women" over and over doesn't make it true. If they were the same as women, there would be no need for the trans prefix. Trans women are not women, they're trans women. If trans women are women, does that mean women are trans women? It makes no sense

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Sorry but this is incorrect. Gender identity is not linked in any way to surgery - people can be transgender without having, or indeed planning to have surgery. It is purely the gender that you identify with.

And that's why some of us are gender critical- just identifying with a sex does not make you the exact same as a woman. It should not make the word woman a dirty word where it can't be used without causing offence. If someone identifies with being a woman, that's fine, and I will call them by their preferred pronouns but the modern gender ideology decrees that we accept them as the exact same as us and they should be allowed into our private spaces

Women are a sex, not a gender identity