Gender discussions

[jewelkitty]

Yeah, for every minority group there are people who think they’re taking things away from them and feel extremely threatened. It’s strange.

WHY does this keep being said?
This has been addressed over and over and over again.

Women LOSE:
1. Our right to single-sex spaces. And this is what women need and want, they couldn't give a hoot about single-gender spaces. If anyone can identify as anything then these spaces become meaningless.
2. Our language that we use to acknowledge and discuss our experiences and suffering. I've compared it to black people suddenly losing the right to use language to differentiate their experience from white privilege, etc.
3. Our right to participate in single sex sports (which you've said you agree with), and not have them be dominated by MtF people.
4. Safe sanctuaries in the form of domestic violence shelters (Vancouver rape crisis centre).

How are these not things being taken away from women?

Your argument has been made to me by a straight "cis" man on fb who has never had to even comprehended these issues, but surely you do?

 

[chocolate choux]

If I was a kid growing up today I think I would’ve been transgender and be on the hormones already! I grew up playing football, hated wearing dresses or makeup, always had messy hair and to be quite honest, I didn’t have any female friends but that wasn’t a problem back then (albeit only 15 years ago). I refused to wear any clothes from the girls section cos I just felt more comfortable in football shirts, joggers and trainers and that was that but nowadays I completely agree it has been massively overblown. If you do anything remotely masculine you are therefore not regarded as a woman anymore and vulnerable young children are now lead to believe that there must be this “misalignment” between their brain and their body and it’s so so harmful it’s actually reversing the old fashioned gender stereotypes women have fought for years to reverse!! I actually think we’re going backwards instead of forwards in society in acceptance of people for who they are and I wouldn’t want my future daughters to grow up in this society. Call me a trans-medicalist but I truly believe that wether you were born a man or a woman you should be free to be as masculine or feminine as you want without feeling the need to change yourself and people who are transgender have a genuine condition where they feel strong dysphoria and distress against their own body which can only be relived by surgery! Sorry for the long rant but I completely understand what you’re saying

Yes, this is exactly what gives me conflicting feelings because it’s becoming like people aren’t allowed to just be anymore if that makes sense? Like you being a tomboy wasn’t anything more than that and thankfully it sounds like it was never thought to be

I have a daughter, she’s only 18 months old so doesn’t have much self awareness yet but I feel strongly about raising her without judgement after being raised by sexists myself. From day one people were pressuring me to put her in uncomfortable and impractical dresses and bows and I just thought fuck this... now she wears what she wants, plays with what she wants. I feel fiercely protective of her childhood and feel like it’s only a matter of time before she starts noticing gender stereotypes and letting them get in the way of who she is

 

[jewelkitty]

Yeah I used to be all supportive of trans rights and think 'live and let live' until I saw how deeply misogynist the whole movement is.

I find this subreddit a good place for voices of reason (although I do find some things there extreme and I don't agree with it all)

r/GenderCritical

r/GenderCritical: Welcome to Reddit's most active feminist community! This is a women-centered, radical feminist subreddit to discuss gender from a …

www.reddit.com

 

[bubbletea123]

Gwan JK Rowling

Yes, go JK. She isn't wrong and I had this discussion with my partner last night.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

@SqualorVictoria
For any misunderstanding, to quote you here: ‘To me, transwomen is someone who's in the process of taking hormones or had surgery. If you have a penis you are still a man’

This is not correct and would be extremely offensive to a trans woman (perhaps one who is yet to begin a physical transition or has chosen not to, both equally valid scenarios).

I have spent a long time reading through these posts and it has been fascinating to see an open forum sharing a wider variety of viewpoints and opinions. I have taught Gender within an A Level Psychology course for many years and it my job and duty to continue to educate on all aspects of both vernacular and current case studies.

I strongly believe that we are entitled to our opinion - however, sometimes opinions are based are incorrect information - see above - and to me, this would indicate further education. You don’t have to agree with what is said, but it doesn’t seem fair to quote ‘penis = man’ etc when this is now not technically nor legally the case

Well it wasn't actually me that said that but either way, I do agree with it. Gender dysphoria is rare but within the new trans ideology, anyone can identify as a woman just because they say so. One might be more comfortable calling themselves a trans woman but that does not mean they are a woman. Trans women are not women, trans women are trans women. That's really the long and short of it

Has everyone seen Hannah Tay’s YouTube video?

The more I hear about Mermaids the more Worried I get. Definitely the next grooming child abuse scandal that’s going to come out

Yeah I saw it, she was remarkably brave to speak up publicly in this current climate. Good on her

Let me ask this again. Would people be honestly comfortable with this person being in the female toilets with them? The thought of this person being allowed into the womens toilets sets me on edge. It makes me fearful for all my nieces futures if that's the norm and women are told to just accept it because "trans women are who they say they are". Actually, it not only makes me fearful, it makes me furious.

 

[BostonFernGreen]

I agree with you it shouldn’t take away from trans women. Do you think women need to mute their own experiences in order to make room?

If women weren’t still suffering all over the world because of things like pregnancy and period poverty, I don’t think it would come up.

What is interesting is that women discussing this is seen as transphobic or an infringement on trans rights or a stinginess.

People who steam in and say everyone is a TERF or transphobic are not helping the cause. It’s so dehumanising for trans people to act as if a reasonable discussion of how to create a society with room for everyone is phobic of them.

Yes they’re a vulnerable group with higher risk of violence and shorter than average life expectancy. But they’re not lower humans who need to be protected from reality or other people’s needs. They need safety, acceptance and opportunities, protection in law and good access to non biased healthcare. So do women. In that sense the two groups are very closely aligned. It doesn’t mean they’re exactly the same but they have shared interests.

It’s my belief that both groups would do better if they faced reality together and worked to find a way of living which is mutually beneficial.

Do they need a massive storm whipped up by ‘allies’ saying ‘ooooooooh I wooodnt have that if I were you, she’s a transphobe! I’m your best friend now! Look at me!’ How is that helping anyone? Some people need to ask themselves are they into tangibly helping vulnerable people or are they enjoying the smugness that goes with shouting ‘transphobe!!!’ at every opportunity. I don’t think history will look kindly on the people who used extreme language to silence reasonable opinions.

 

[maytoseptember]

My point is that just like the fact there’s some activists who disregard women (never denied that there is), there’s also many activists who disregard trans people completely too.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by “disregarding trans people completely”?

Is it disregarding trans people to say that women are entitled to single sex spaces, for their privacy and dignity? Is it disregarding trans people to say that biological sex is real? Is it disregarding trans people to say that you cannot change your sex?

I‘ve literally never come across a single so-called “anti-trans” voice that’s said trans people don’t have the right to live in peace and happiness, using the name they like and wearing the clothing they like. But women’s rights to single sex spaces (be it toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centres, shelters and sports) trump the rights of any trans woman who seeks validation from being allowed into these spaces. Trans women should campaign for a third space instead... except that isn’t good enough, apparently.

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

My transphobe comment was towards the comments I saw saying trans women aren’t women and the people bringing up extremely rare occurrences in order to trash them. To me that is transphobia. I don’t throw the word around lightly. But I believe they are women and have a right to be identified as such. It takes nothing from me. I used to see trans people quite often through my old work and I’d hate for them to be constantly told they aren’t women or men.

Also no I don’t think women need to mute their own experiences to make room. I’ve never felt unable to speak about my experiences as a woman because of trans women and if one made me genuinely feel that way I would call them out. Honestly I’m much more offended by the whole “BUT PERIODS AND BABIES!!” argument

And I stand by the fact you shouldn’t have kids if you’d have a problem with them being trans. Not sure how that is horrible.

Not all women have periods but only women can have periods. Not sure how that is hard to understand.

Motherhood, periods, sexual health are massive, massive parts of most womens lives. Even if you dont have kids. You are judged. We are shoved out of jobs because of this, we are told to control our behaviour because of our risk of falling pregnant, we do the most childcare, we do the most emotional labour, we are constantly reminded of the need to be both good mother and good employee and a lot of the time we feel like we dont do either well enough. Men do not generally get that. They dont suffer from the pay gap, selective abortions (did you know there is a deficit of 1m females across the world because people in certain countries do not value female life). We are sent to menstrual huts and told we are 'dirty' we are mutilated, raped, sold. We are sexualised from day dot.

You are being ridiculous. 'Oh well I'm not hungry so there must be no famine in the world' - that's how you sound.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Also this makes me a bit sad, Anita Roddick founded the Body Shop, sort of reminds me of JK Rowling in the sense that it's two women that founded an institution. Obviously TBS is now owned by L'Oreal and the products have been crap and overpriced for years with none of the charm of years ago. What would Anita, a female entrepreneur, say about their social media team going after JK Rowling?

 

[HarderFaster]

I'm just saying that incidents which expose systemic failings are often not made public, @Mselvista. It's difficult to say from 5 years of legislation in a country with a population that is less than 10% of the UK whether there have or have not been publicised problems with self-ID.

I have no interest engaging with you any longer because, at your own admission, you are simply skim-reading anything sent and then trying to twist the meaning. I'm tired of energy being spent on a toxic debate which, frankly, detracts from issues women face on a day to day basis.

Back to bitching about social media wankers for me, I think.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

This bothers me too. It implies we conform to stereotypes in my opinion and I'm sure most of us couldn't care less for gender stereotypes.

Makes me think of this

 

[bubbletea123]

Actually had an argument with my husband about this last night...womens rights being erased, anyone wanting to be called she/her being allowed in female spaces, etc. He said I was being aggressive about it and have to think about the wider scope of trans people. . Fed up as a woman of being told we are aggressive if we have an opinion and are loud about it. That will actually make me shout louder.

 

[Mycuppatea]

Just popping this here for balance. There's a couple accounts and hashtags to investigate to see another side to this (ignore if you're comfy in your echo chamber though, not here to argue with anyone)

Both of those conditions are considered to be intersex and most of us in the intersex community resent being used as a talking point in this way. We have our own struggles and issues and don't need to be co-opted into our existence being evidence in trans issues.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Sorry, what do you mean by people like me?

Have I been abusive? Called anyone names?

It's interesting that you say that, I've had private messages from more than one person saying they daren't get involved in this discussion because of the ferocity of the "gender critical" activists. That they're scared to join in but congratulating me on my comments.


I'm a woman.

There have been comments about wanting to discuss this. I'm discussing it. Perhaps gc feminists want an echo chamber to discuss this stuff with each other. That fair enough. But I can comment as long as I'm not breaching guidelines. Crikey, anyone would think you were trying to silence me for not subscribing to :gender critical" orthodoxy.


16 mentions of "women" in 2020 so far vs 1 of "men". You can count the totals mentions if you like.


https://twitter.com/search?q=fromthebodyshopuk women&s=09

https://twitter.com/search?q=fromthebodyshopuk men&s=09

Apologies, Melvista and thanks for clearing up that you are a woman. That being said, I still stick by my original comment of "people like you". Unlike say, periods, being dismissive and cherry picking in debates is something both sexes can do, hence why I say "people like you". People like you try to make us feel like monsters for simply believing that a man with a penis will never be the exact same as a woman. Transphobe, terf, etc

You asked people for links and when one poster took the time to reply with a long list of links you asked her for a TLDR version. You have cherry picked what to respond to and ignored other points. You are deliberately trying to trip people up and catch them out.

I'm still not sure why it's okay for you to scold others on an influencer thread and tell people to go elsewhere but then bring it up again yourself. Even after people apologised to you

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

I wouldn't say I'm 'comfortable with my sex' either, being a woman - but I do think being trans and knowing for sure, is a different feeling based on what my son has described to me. Obviously I don't know first hand what it feels like but when I've tried to understand and he's given me insight it's sounded a lot more deeper than just being uncomfortable. The deep hatred he has for his own body is... traumatising to even hear about, to be honest.

That said, I 100% agree there are cases that are rushed into too quickly. My son is on no medications yet and is having therapy & on the waiting list for gender clinic (it's been I think 13ish months now?). It won't be a quick process for him to get on any medications - I'll be surprised if he's started anything even 12-18 months from now. There are some clinics he wanted to go to (he'd done his research) but it seemed those, when I looked into them myself, were sometimes signing off on hormones on the first visit! Which was... shocking.

I don't really have any doubts that he is trans but I'm not down with that. He's got to get his mind ready before his body.

Can I just say you sound like an incredibly loving and sensible mother and your son is so lucky to have someone so supportive in his life.

And thank you for engaging in discussion in a civil way without just throwing around terf insults. Although we may not share the same views I have found your posts on this thread very insightful.

 

[judsmum]

Christ

Penis: The genitals of a male
Vagina: The genitals of a female.
Dick: someone who forcefully challenges the above.

 

[mindlessness]

Just saw a very aggravating article in Jezebel calling JK misogynist and purposefully misgendering her as ‘he’ to make some sort of woke point. Turns out the author is a trans woman.
Bah! I shouldn’t have even clicked through on Twitter.

 

[Podcat]

I've attached some images that hopefully explain why I don't feel we are being "lied to" by GC people. Stonewall lobbied to have sex removed as a protected characteristic and for the removal of single sex spaces. Lots of companies and local authorities have also adopted their guidance even though it isn't law.

A couple of tweets about the failed mixed sex prisons in Denmark (I don't read Danish so I haven't fact checked the article).

There is also the Tavistock whistleblowers who resigned over their concerns about the treatment of children. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ender-clinic-hit-35-resignations-three-years/

 

[Hibernator]

It's groupthink at play, this is extraordinarily dangerous. A lot of people are more concerned with appearing "right on"

It's one massive purity spiral. No-one wants to be seen as not singing from the right hymn sheet.

 

[Zenchick101]

I'm sorry but I don't want to see a penis when I'm getting naked in the changing room is that so wrong?
Most of us want people to be comfortable and safe even if we don't understand it completely but should everything just be changed to accomodate one group of people? and there are real trans people out there but how can you tell the difference between that and someone who does it for other reasons pervy or not.
People need to stop throwing labelling people as transphobic so easily.