Gender discussions

[HarderFaster]

You asked if there were concerns over self-ID in Ireland, @Mselvista, and I responded with an article which shows there are, in fact, concerns. If you'd be happy to be incarcerated with someone like that, then good for you. I'm less sure, however, that this would be a safe situation for many of the female population, who are often addicts and survivors of abuse. I've merely been trying to make the point that legal reform which makes life easier for one group of oppressed people should not put another group of oppressed people at risk.

But I think your earlier response of "campaign for women in Africa and Asia" then shows that your responses really aren't in good faith, so I'm wasting my time.

ETA: "someone like that" meaning a ten time sex offender and child abuser.

 

[jewelkitty]

I'm in tears. I shared the essay on Facebook just saying "I support JK Rowling "
Within a couple minutes, someone who I always looked up to and respected, a lecturer I had at uni just commented "This is where we part ways."
and immediately unfriended me.
I half expected it but it's still extremely upsetting.

 

[maytoseptember]

And a unisex third space is good enough but it also comes with risks for trans people.

But if unisex spaces are unsafe, then that only proves the point that women deserve single sex spaces for themselves.

Allow me to plagiarise a post on Mumsnet which I saw recently:

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

That’s the crux of it.

 

[GossipMongoose]

FFS, now we’re apparently denying that ‘only women’ have abortions on a pro-choice post. Fuck me. Unbelievable.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

But if unisex spaces are unsafe, then that only proves the point that women deserve single sex spaces for themselves.

Allow me to plagiarise a post on Mumsnet which I saw recently:

Women's toilets are a place for women and girls to use for privacy and dignity. They are not a general refuge from anyone who happens to fear men.

That’s the crux of it.

Exactly. If a trans person does not feel safe in a male toilet, can they not accept why women might not feel safe with a male bodied person in ours? Why is no one making demands of men to make toilets safer places?

And furthermore, how have drag queens and transvestites managed all these years?

 

[HarderFaster]

I've been considering this for a long time now, I was super sympathetic to the plight of trans women but the proposed GRA amendments are what made me critical of the movement. I don't think any woman would refuse to be polite and accommodating to a trans woman in our spaces, because we are generally conditioned to be so. However, my concern goes beyond bathrooms or changing rooms (as has been noted, trans women with a GRC have been using these spaces for decades and it doesn't bother me). My fear over the amendments with self-ID is more about spaces for vulnerable women such as DV shelters. You only have to look at Canada to see that men who very much present as men are self-IDing as women to access these services (see Danielle Moscato, and that Tyler character who someone screenshotted earlier). Most women will never end up in shelters or prison, so it's very easy to speak from a position of privilege and say "well the trans bathrooms situation doesn't bother me and therefore anyone bothered must be a bigot".

We need to consider the effect legislation like this has on sex protected spaces for women fleeing violence and abuse, or incarcerated women. Most shelters won't allow boys over 12 because the residents are so traumatised by men in their proximity. Imagine being a mum separated from her pre-pubescent son because he'd be a traumatising factor to other women, but there being a trans woman with many remaining male identifiers housed in the same building. It's just unimaginable to me.

And I agree that this is very much a male problem: trans women also experience considerable violence at the hands of men. However, in the same way that women have had to self-advocate and organise to protect themselves, the trans community should work (and women would be more than happy to advise and assist, I am positive) to create similar support networks which cater to the very specific needs of that community.

I think while women and trans women can be staunch allies for each other, our needs and services shouldn't be conflated. We're all oppressed because the label of 'not a man' is somehow considered less, but the implications of biology create nuance which I think we can't ignore.

 

[PoleStar]

So someone that I followed on Twitter saying that "x-amount of my followers are still following JK Rowling. Please either unfollow me before I unfollow you." Aaaanyway, today, I checked that app that shows you who unfollowed you recently and they had unfollowed me and it says I was not following them anymore. They must have blocked then unblocked me as that is the only way to get someone to unfollow you on Twitter. What bizarre behaviour. Imagine unfollowing someone because they follow a person whose views you disagree with - I mean, JK Rowling does not have extreme views in my mind.

Someone else I follow tweeted that they had an "awkward chat" with one of their closest, oldest friends about JK Rowling. She then said they are going to talk about it on their next Zoom chat but she is worried as her friend's attitude is that "we are never going to agree on this" which "isn't a very hopeful starting point." And that if she can't change her friend's mind then that is a red line for her.

WHO CARES. Why aren't people allowed to have differing opinions anymore? Are people ok?

I don't know how old you and your peers are, but I have always believed that it is unrealistic to expect to like and be liked by everyone we encounter in life and that it is equally unrealistic to expect everyone we encounter to share our views and opinions. An adult with a well rounded personality should be able to accept others' views without necessarily sharing them and agree to differ. If someone feels that the only possible reaction to someone whose views they don't share is to block them, unfollow or unfriend if they don't acquiesce, I'd suggest they need to work on themselves as that is the sort of tantrum-like behaviour I'd expect from a toddler, not an adult.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

The way some of these activitists go about campaigning for trans rights directly affects women’s rights because they want us to sacrifice our spaces instead of going about getting their own that cater specifically to their needs. That’s where this whole discussion stems from.

Trans people can and should campaign for their rights, they should campaign for healthcare and their own safe spaces or what ever else they feel they need. Women did and now we have services available to many women who need them during times of crisis or desperation, at least in the western world.

Sports is an issue where women are having their rights infringed. The whole reason we have women’s sports in the first place is because biological males on average are stronger and faster, their bone structure, bone density, lung capacity and heart size are not things that disappear with hormone therapy. No matter how much a woman trains, she will not be able to match up physically to her Male equivalent, It wouldn’t be competitive for women without women’s sports and we had to fight for them to exist. Women’s football was banned by the FA for fifty years for goodness sake. However we now have transwomen competing and dominating sports in which they were mediocre when competing as men. It is happening on an Olympic level and grassroots. Women are being injured, losing team spots and records have been broken on a disproportionate scale by these transwomen because women simply cannot compete with their biology no matter how hard they train and im sorry but that’s not fair and it goes against the whole reason women’s sports exist in the first place. Identify how you wish but your body will always remain as the sex you were born as with all the physical attributes typical of your sex and important to acknowledge this, especially when it comes to sports.

I’ve been shouted down many times for saying biological males don’t belong in women’s sports but I stand by it and I always will, because it’s grossly unfair that it’s allowed to happen.

 

[PoleStar]

don’t know why people are so averse to that word. I don’t always use it out of context, only when I talk about trans stuff.

I’m lucky enough that I’m able bodied and don’t have bladder/bowel issues (actually I have IBS but I know my triggers) because I’d hate to be forced to reveal myself just for the privilege of using the loos if I’m in public. That alone would be absolutely humiliating.

just being curious, what’s your (everyone here) stance on trans men using men’s bathrooms? assuming they pass as men. wouldn’t you be weirded out seeing a trans man using women’s loos in that case? is it suddenly ok if they have a vagina? see how all of this seems illogical to me.

ETA: trans women don’t feel safe using men’s loos, so I guess possible solutions would involve including unisex bathrooms for those who feel comfortable using them, or a designated trans/NB bathroom (which would invite violence too, imo). I suppose they can use disabled loos but I can’t see disablity companies doling out keys for trans people to use?

You don't know why people object to "cis"? Because it's bullshit, that's why. There are two sexes/genders - male and female, determined by X and Y chromosomes. They do not need to be quantified or qualified. Anyone who decides, for whatever reason, to transition to the opposite sex/gender to what they were born is a "transgender man/woman", anyone else is a man or a woman. Simple enough?

 

[Meh]

Have to say one part of the trans activism side of this debate seems to reek of white privilege. They still haven't addressed the issue of Muslim women in women only spaces, and they didn't give a rats ass about statistics about poorer women or PoC, both in the UK and abroad. I've seen black women in the UK who are doing a lot of work to fight FGM be abused for calling it F!!!GM. Sickening. Privileged white women are not all that matter, and seem to be the only people taken into account when saying trans rights don't diminish women's rights. Makes sense though as some of the loudest people speaking over and abusing JKR are straight, white, rich males who have never had to acknowledge their privilege.

YES!

It’s rage inducing to be made to feel that a fear of males in my personal space can have me painted as a “TERF” or some horrendous bigot... even more rage inducing when said strong view point comes from early 20s straight middle class white boy. Who knows and understands F*CK ALL about the feelings, challenges, fears and concerns of women.

 

[Zenchick101]

Wow. I can't believe people are trying to deny that biological sex is real. What is wrong with them? That is SO worrying. Good on Buck.

Doesn't make sense if it wasn't real then why would you want to transition in the first place? -this is why I'm confused, if I'm not understanding this correctly someone feel free to explain it to me

 

[maytoseptember]

NHS document. Second paragraph after ‘dear families’

https://www.bsuh.nhs.uk/maternity/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2020/04/Infant-Feeding-Resources-for-Parents-COVID-19.pdf

“Breastfeeding/chestfeeding takes time and practice and can be a real challenge for so many women/people in the early days. One thing this coronavirus is forcing us to do is stay indoors and avoid close contact with others. This is a great opportunity for you to get to know your baby and begin to learn how to breastfeed/chestfeed together. This is a new skill and takes time. We are here for you.”

No one has yet managed to explain to me what motivates a trans man to get pregnant, give birth and “chestfeed”. If your dysphoria is so severe you need to transition, what possesses you to do the most fundamentally female thing imaginable?

But, most crucially, how many trans men choose to get pregnant year on year? I’m guessing the numbers in the UK are absolutely tiny. More than ten people per year? Or less?

Why on EARTH does the NHS feel the need to kowtow to such an inordinately small number of people?

EDIT: I’ve just realised that this document was produced by an NHS trust in Brighton. LOL... I get it now.

 

[barmj]

hi! finally read through the thread, a lot of thought provoking posts and I must say, I’m glad this thread exists. I consider myself a supportive trans ally, but after one occasion when I voiced some reasonable concerns (without hateful tone or disparaging trans folk), I was told that I was raising red flags, so I’ve been hesistant to say even remotely otherwise since.

First of all, I'm not sure what him being a gay man (I won't use the word cis) has got to do with anything. He was there and is setting the record straight on what happened. There is no point trying to rewrite history. The Nazi quote is from the Nazi propaganda minister, he's not comparing trans people to Nazis, he's making the point that if you spread enough lies people will eventually believe it. It's an insult to the people who were actually involved that TRAs (I don't mean you, I mean those that started this falsehood) have attributed this to someone else. It just smacks of jumping on the BLM movement too by claiming it was a black trans woman

Regarding the bathroom, would you be happy with this person ("Danielle Muscato") entering the bathroom at the same time? Thanks to the modern cult ideology we are supposed to accept this person as a woman, no questions asked. I can tell you that if this person entered a changing room, bathroom, etc, my guard would be going up and it would be staying there.

Suggesting that Jk Rowling is putting their lives in danger is absurd. To be frank, seeing the disgusting abuse and threats she has been on the receiving end of, I think it is her who put her own life in danger

This is an excellent article on Emma Watson and her empty slogan

Emma Watson Is the Face of Hermione Granger, Without the Intellect

Emma Watson decrees people are who they say they are. Would she apply that to Rachel Dolezal? Don't trans people deserve better than incoherent sound bites?

uncommongroundmedia.com

sorry, I brought up ‘gay man’ because a lot of gay men tend to be misogynistic as all hell and genuinely transphobic (not gender critical but transphobic). I’m bi so I’m in the LGBT circle (on social media especially) and I’ve heard and seen gay men use vulgar language about women (we are revolting, our vaginas are vomit worthy, we are hysterical bitches, we are bland AF, etc.)

also, yes, I am aware that trans women are just as bad, I’ve noticed a lot of them use misogynistic language, and it is not on at all. It really makes me think about their claim to be trans women if they speak to women like that, y’know, the gender/sex that they claim/desire to be? I dislike JKR in general but I am shocked at the hate she received for her essay (I really don’t like the essay but I’ll admit I read it in bad faith), and so many transgender people telling her to “suck my dick”. Even more shocked when The Sun interviewed her abusive ex husband!! That’s shitrags for ya.

I must say, I support genuine trans women but after seeing the other side’s perspective, I realise I’ve missed A LOT. I really thought transphobes actually were transphobes, when most of them/you are gender critical (another thing I didn’t know much about). Obviously I want transgender people to live their lives authenically to the best of their ability (not every trans person is financially lucky like Caitlyn Jenner!) and I want them to be safe, but not at the expense of women. We must carry on supporting women, we are capable of caring about and championing for more than one issue. I think it’s also important to work on educating boys and young men on how to behave and conduct themselves in society, how to treat women, etc., because we shouldn’t have to take steps to ensure we aren’t assaulted or killed, clenching our keys in our hands when we walk home alone at night. Transgender people shouldn’t suffer the same either, we need to go back to the source: men. yes, I know not all men, blah blah, but you know what I mean (hopefully).

As for that Danielle Muscato character... no, you’re right, I wouldn’t be comfortable. Seems like a very sad individual. I have heard some bits about Jessica Yaniv? That person is extremely shady, and to be honest, I think men (or people, I really don’t want to offend) use the whole... progressiveness (re. LGBT) and claim to be trans women for... I don’t know, I don’t want to be rude but, perverted reasons?? They seem the type who enjoy doing things for shock value and to upset vulnerable people (women and children specially). I think it’s very possible that they pretend to be trans women because in this day and age, it’s relatively easy to do so, and women are being silenced out of fear, not wanting to be abused and/or seen as transphobic, bad ally, etc. It’s quite upsetting actually, and I do wish more TRAs would hear GCs out in good faith.

Apologies for the lengthy post but I appreciate being able to have a healthy debate with youse.

 

[Apple In My Pie]

I don’t think it’s fair to say anybody is crying over it, that feels so reductive and a bit ‘oh silly women and their feelz’

 

[Globe]

I have a real issue with the word "cis"- why are women now seen as a subcategory of their own gender?

This bothers me too. It implies we conform to stereotypes in my opinion and I'm sure most of us couldn't care less for gender stereotypes.

 

[Iced Coffee]

Well, one benefit of threads like these is that it makes it easy to know who to block. Thanks, transphobes, for outing yourselves.

 

[BostonFernGreen]

Fragile femininity because a lot of people on here seem convinced that trans women are going to take away their womanhood. Crying about being called a “cis” woman. It’s just silly.

Are you crying about people crying about being called “cis”? That’s just silly.

It’s worse than silly to characterise a reasoned discussion as silly crying. It’s dismissive and rude and it belittles people who are adding to an important conversation.

Femininity and womanhood are two different concepts but you’re using them interchangeably. Are you talking about fragile womanhood or fragile femininity? One is trivial compared to the other.

Womanhood refers to so much and all of it informs a woman’s life. Examples: gender pay gap, period poverty, FGM, sexual assault and rape. That some people are protective of that category and all it represents could rightly be described as a fragility but you seemed to use fragility as a pejorative term and sneer at it. Where is that coming from?

Being a woman does involve inherent fragility, that’s a given. That’s why all of this is up for discussion.

 

[Halloumifries45]

I literally don’t have any words anymore

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Actually no, I'm not done.

@Mselvista I note you state that "What I do not want is for "gender critics" to dominate the debate here. I do not want this forum (and I only really comment on one thread) is to become synonymous with transphobia as Mumsnet now is." You don't get to control the narrative. When women are repeatedly telling you something, maybe listen? Also, on another thread you scolded someone for bringing up the trans debate and told them to "take it up elsewhere, I don't want to see this here". Last night I noticed you then brought it up again on the same thread.

It is *precisely* because of people like you that women are afraid to voice concerns in real life. I am not out spreading my "demonising" views in real life, as I said before I'm too afraid to. On this thread, you have tried to trip posters up constantly.

 

[openbook1]

That strange glossary seems to suggest that vaginas are the sole domain of post-op TW.

Surely this is from The Onion or similar?!

Right. It reads like satire.

Another unfollow for me. Fundamentally I get what she is saying but it doesn't mean it's not taking away from women's rights. She is also referencing Stonewall who is facing lawsuits right now.

"But also not all people who menstruate are women."



Someone commented there about a "man" being pregnant and I just can't get on board with that.
"Absolutely! I had a (transgender) male patient who was pregnant and found it so hard that all the services (not just healthcare... baby groups, yoga groups, leaflets... all of it) were so female-centric. Thankfully he ultimately had a smooth home birth (I know the thought of being on a maternity ward was quite daunting) with a lovely midwife team and it was all very positive despite the challenges. Such an important topic and it reaches wider than just periods."

Of course, it was female-centric because it is women who get pregnant. I don't understand why someone who wants to transition to a man because they HATE being a woman, would even want to go through pregnancy? It doesn't make sense to me.