Gender discussions

[Meh]

Well, one benefit of threads like these is that it makes it easy to know who to block. Thanks, transphobes, for outing yourselves.

Hmm. I’m not sure how I feel about this.

What benefit will be had by blocking people whose thought processes do not align with your own?

Personally, this “cancel culture” and everyone being so quick to “shut them down” is toxic. How can we ever deal with complex, deep or emotionally charged topics if people refuse to engage with others?

I see a lot (particularly recently) about how people need to widen their circles and become more diverse and inclusive with their social groups. Does the same apply to a lot of those people spouting this need for open mindedness?

No, I don’t agree with a lot of the comments made on this thread. However, as I have the right to think and feel one way I recognise that others have the right to polar opposing views. This right cannot be taken away from them or me. It’s not a “loony lefty” or “ok, Boomer right wing” debate.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

I just explained the whole Graham Lineham thing to my partner and he looked so confused whilst I was explaining the dick pic saga. I had to tell him that yes it sounds ridiculous, almost like high school drama but these are the kinds of tactics these activists use to discredit and silence those they disagree with and they are dangerous.

Doxxing, fake accounts, spreading untrue but harmful rumours about people, not to mention the insults they use towards us and anyone who doesn’t tow the line. I have never seen anyone on the gender critical side of this debate throw such bile towards the other side. We don’t need to stoop to the level of creating fake accounts to discredit the opposition, because they do it to themselves.

People wonder why many don’t go public with their views? Well Graham Lineham is a perfect example as to why people are afraid. He’s not the first and Definitely won’t be the last. But people on this thread who comment with things like “you don’t go public with your views because you know they’re wrong/bigoted” are just plain wrong and shortsighted. Just look at what happens to people who do speak up, and ask yourself if you would put yourself at risk like that. The ones who do go unapologetically public with their views are BRAVE in my eyes.

 

[Podcat]

Trans people already have rights. Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic in law, they have a right to medical treatment and to not be discriminated against for being trans.

WRT the erasure of biological sex the most pernicious thought is that although biolgocial differences may exist, they do not matter. That anyone can be a woman no matter their reproductive system. Feminists patently disagree with this.

A Lib Dem politician recently said that parliament could be said to be equal if it were 50% men and 50% trans women. No biological women at all. No women to discuss the realities of maternity policies, of maternal and female healthcare, of childcare funding. This is what the erasure of women looks like.

This SNP politician today said that trans women are "female". What use is the word female if it no longer means "the sex of any species that can produce ova that are fertilised by male sperm"?

 

[BostonFernGreen]

My transphobe comment was towards the comments I saw saying trans women aren’t women and the people bringing up extremely rare occurrences in order to trash them. To me that is transphobia. I don’t throw the word around lightly. But I believe they are women and have a right to be identified as such. It takes nothing from me. I used to see trans people quite often through my old work and I’d hate for them to be constantly told they aren’t women or men.

Also no I don’t think women need to mute their own experiences to make room. I’ve never felt unable to speak about my experiences as a woman because of trans women and if one made me genuinely feel that way I would call them out. Honestly I’m much more offended by the whole “BUT PERIODS AND BABIES!!” argument

And I stand by the fact you shouldn’t have kids if you’d have a problem with them being trans. Not sure how that is horrible.

Maybe you could explain something to me?

Why would you choose a concept which is not rooted in material reality to promote rights? And then whenever anyone is forced to counter that it’s not quite that simple, say ‘STOP CONSTANTLY DENYING MY NARRATIVE YOU VIOLENT PHOBE!!!!’

That’s classic gaslighting and there is a serious problem if you’ve got an entire movement based on this. These are people we’re talking about and you are setting them up for failure by encouraging them to be offended by reality. Why would you do that to someone?

My suspicion is that what started off as a symbolic statement (which I completely agree with. I do believe trans women should be seen and counted as they wish to be) has been taken by some as a literal stance.

Here are some occasions when your biological sex matters:

A fertility clinic
An endocrine clinic
A genetics consultation after sudden death in family
Your life expectancy and other predictive health metrics
Your lung capacity
An oncology clinic (some cancers affect one sex disproportionately)

If people keep insisting that trans women are women, and trans women (possibly already vulnerable after dealing with a lifetime of gender dysphoria) hear it on repeat everywhere they go, it’s going to become a triggering experience for them when they are forced to face reality. Note that the examples above are medical/science based, ie it would not be appropriate for them to ignore the reality of biological sex. Are they transphobic? If not, why not? What if they’re frightened of being accused of being because of people like you?

I think I’m more supportive of trans rights than you are because I’m actually thinking through reality and how trans people need to live their lives away from Twitter.

Sorry for the double post but just been thinking about it on my morning walk. I see my responses above are quite combative which I don’t think is helpful either so I’m sorry for that.

I hope most people want the same thing in the end which is a more accepting society in general, less violent crime against women and better rights for marginalised groups.

I am strongly pro trans rights and strongly pro women’s rights. My work puts me in contact with vulnerable women and trans people and I am no less moved by either group. I want good outcomes and lives and opportunities across the board.

 

[jewelkitty]

I'm still shaking right now but I don't regret doing it. It's these small things that we need to do.

She has a transgender MtF kid so I didn't expect her to be too happy with it but considering she's a lecturer and I've known her for years I expected her to give me a little bit more respect than that.

What she doesn't know is that it was her rhetoric on Twitter the last couple years that led me towards those who are Gender Critical. And hopefully with my post and her reaction, someone might consider our point of view who wouldn't have before.

 

[jewelkitty]

Lost another FB friend but gained another friend private messaging me that she also wanted to share support for JK but is too scared.
This is so sad

I'm from Ireland so in recent years we've had the referendums on both marriage equality and abortions rights. I'm unreservedly pro-gay marriage and pro-choice, but I had quite a few friends on FB who were vocally opposite. I heavily disagreed with their opinions but I didn't put my fingers in my ears and go la la la and unfriend them. I'm confident enough in my beliefs that I can defend them, why can't they?

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I'm not confused so no need to apologise.

I mentioned that I'm a woman because you said "people like [me] are silencing women".
So women are silencing women?
Now I *am* confused.

Yes, women on the GC side are afraid to speak up because of people - men and women- deeming them bigots, terf, transphobes, being accused of demonising trans people, etc etc. I can't make it any clearer than that

Interestingly enough, you honed in on a tiny part of my reply to you and ignored everything else. I'm still none the wiser as to why you think it's okay to moderate a thread and scold others for bringing this up on an influencer thread while you then go on to the very same thing yourself. Even after people had the decency to apologise to you.

To conclude Melvista, I have absolutely no interest in engaging with you any further. And you were so rude about the poster who took the time to furnish you with links you asked for.

 

[HarderFaster]

Ok so I've gone back through the thread to find the reference to the "Tyler character".
A screenshot of a FB post shared by twitter user @trareceipts aka Peak trans.
Can't find the poster or the post on FB. But it appears to be a joke. You may not find it funny or may think it's offensive but it is not evidence of that person being in a women's shelter. It's evidence of someone stating they are possibly facetiously.
What it has to do with Canadian legislation I have no idea.
Danielle Muscato, again nothing to do with Canada, shares a video of themselves at what they described as a "homeless shelter". That is not the same thing as a women's refuge. I used to work in housing and now work in welfare advice. Homeless accommodation is not the same as refuges or safe houses for women fleeing domestic abuse. This misrepresentation is to suggest something sinister is going on. I don't know much about Muscato and know they're a controversial figure so I not attempting to defend them as a person but to say they were at a refuge is dishonest.
And it is nothing to do Canadian legislation and is therefore not relevant to any discussion of amendments to the 2004 GRA.

Evidence of Tyler being in a women's shelter - the shelter themselves posted denouncing tranphobia: https://dewc.ca/news/statement-concerning-recent-facebook-and-twitter-postings . But what was not noted is that Tyler also posted about being delighted about making a 50-something women also in the refuge uncomfortable.

It's an extreme privilege that we are in the position to argue this in a detached way, but my concern is for women (such as the ones noted by the shelter in their statement - disabled women, women who may not speak English as their first language, older women) who cannot advocate strongly for themselves or voice their discomfort at certain situations. We can theorise all we want about the philosophical implications of men becoming women and vice versa, but ultimately the people at the sharp end of legislative reform will be those already disadvantaged economically, socially, educationally, etc.

This is where I have a problem with my concerns being aligned with right wing ideology: I am incredibly concerned for the voiceless in society. I don't dispute that trans people also require advocacy, and I would strongly support a movement to create space for this. But I don't think that it always has to be at the expense of women, and in particular vulnerable women.

 

[openbook1]

This is truly becoming a bit terrifying, isn’t it? I’m so glad JK has the balls to stand up and speak the truth, in such eloquent terms. What is happening in the world that someone can’t hear a differing opinion without branding whoever said it a TERF, bigot or [other base insult]? It’s so frustrating and saddening that there is no room for a debate on this subject which is nuanced and complex, and ultimately, any decent person broadly believes in rights for everyone.

I looked through the replies to her and people were screaming TERF and "transwomen are women. transwomen are women. transwomen are women."
It is all very much like Orwell's 1984 where they erase sense and repeat that "2 x 2 = 8, 2 x2 = 8" and eventually people start to believe it.

Thankfully I have always been a very headstrong person and not one for peer pressure but clearly others are susceptible to that, even friends of mine. This is not a conversation I dare to have with said friends.

 

[jewelkitty]

But there are plenty of cis women who don't get periods, and the article was specifically about menstrual health and hygiene issues. So using 'women' in place of 'people who menstruate' wouldn't have made sense.

Ok well then why not say "women who menstruate?" Saying "people who menstruate" is just pandering to these bullies and continuing to make "women" a bad word.

But I think that's just nit-picking. Like I said already, JK wasn't saying all women menstruate, she was saying all people who menstruate are women.

 

[RosePetals]

As I woman, I can say hand on heart that I have never once felt that my identity or struggles as a woman have ever been threatened, invalidated or compromised by the existence of trans women.

I’ve also never felt like I am more of a “woman” than a trans woman because I have a menstrual cycle. I don’t understand why some women are so obsessed with that (periods are shit anyway).

That's kinda the point. Many people, including JK Rowling are saying that transwoman aren't a threat, men are. Of course while transphobic people do exist wanting to preserve women's spaces from random predatory men (not transwomen) isn't transphobic. Trans people have bee using the bathroom and changing rooms of their preferred gender for years without people taking issue, the issue is that certain people want to open up much needed single sex spaces to ay and all men who simple says "I identify as a woman". I'm sure you can understand there are many abusive men in the world who would take advantage of this. You cannot deny biological women and girls face many threats purely down to their biological sex.

Edit to add: I've ever felt threatened by a transwoman either and do not see them as a threat. I have however felt and been threatened and attacked by men and the idea that those very men could be allowed to come into female changing rooms, bathrooms, refuges etc is terrifying.

I've put a relevant quotation from JK Rowling's essay below:

"So I want trans women to be safe. At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth."

 

[Justhereforthedrama]

Sex is our biology — what chromosomes, hormones, genes, sex organs, and secondary sex characteristics we have — and it is not binary.

sorry but developmental abberations (like intersex characteristics) or gene faults don’t male something a spectrum.


Some people’s genes are faulty and they are born with 4 arms. We don’t say ‘humans have between 2 and 4 arms’ so when someone is born with intersex characteristics be they sex organs or xx/Xy differences that doesn’t male a third sex or sp

There are two sexes, male and female. That is written into every cell of our body. To the point that you can detect sex from our sweat.

and NONE of that has to do with or has any correlation with trans people.

At the end of the day everyone has gametes, whether yours are large or small tells you which sex you are.

 

[Meh]

@Meh I couldn't agree more. I naively assumed that trans was shorthand for transsexual, it's only when I read into the modern trans ideology that I realised how low the bar is set for someone to be called trans- I'd be fine to live and let live but when fetishists/ cross dressers, etc, are expecting to be seen the same as women and demanding access to our spaces, then nope I am not okay with that

That’s exactly it.

I honestly have no issues whatsoever with men enjoying cross dressing. I don’t. I’ve never batted an eye lid. However, when a (predatory) cross dresser (again, not all!) is using the modern trans ideals to manipulate systems and gain access to women/women’s spaces, and they get some creepy thrill from doing so. Then nope, I’m not okay with that.

One of the most frustrating aspects of this is that, no matter how nuanced the conversation, no matter how much research, thought and reflection a person puts into this area if anyone disagrees with the “narrative” then they are...

fragile feminist... TERF... TRANSPHOBE... hater... should be cancelled... should not be mothers...

Sigh.

 

[Meh]

My transphobe comment was towards the comments I saw saying trans women aren’t women and the people bringing up extremely rare occurrences in order to trash them. To me that is transphobia. I don’t throw the word around lightly. But I believe they are women and have a right to be identified as such. It takes nothing from me. I used to see trans people

I feel like I’m the only person on this thread who agrees with your views. If I had a child and they were trans, I would fully support them in doing whatever they needed to do to be happy.

I watched a documentary once about trans children and a mother describing how she caught her 6 year old contemplating cutting his penis off as his dysphoria was that severe. She said that she would rather let hlive as a girl than to for her to kill herself.

Also I just don’t understand this whole idea of womanhood being threatened by the existence of trans women. Why do people always need to assume a minority is taking something away from you if they want to live their lives? It’s bad enough seeing “all lives matter” in response to BLM.

Im not calling anyone a TERF, I’m just seeing a lot of ignorant comments - that if you are born a man you are man and you will never be a woman. It’s so easy to speak this way when you will never experience what life is like for these people.

I don’t agree with their views largely. Mainly because I think they have put them across in a very petulant and immature way. Discussing “fragile femininity” and stating outright that
People should not have children is outrageous.

I believe most people (myself included) would support their child being trans. However, perhaps as parents they/we would wish said child (and other family members) to undergo therapy and explore all avenues (could this be a coping mechanisms for something else? Like abuse? Sexual orientation confusion? Bullying? Etc)
Those issues need to be explored and addressed fully before punting kids on hormonal blockers. Why is anyone debating this? I’m NOT saying kids cannot be trans or should suffer, absolutely not. But gender dysphoria diagnosis needs to rule out other things first to ensure they are truly ready to start blockers or indeed hormonal transition. 🤷🏻‍

Let me say this for folk in the back... THAT IS NOT TRANSPHOBIA.

That is PARENTING.

Spot on

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Ah thank you for posting some examples of the type of person society (trans and bio) should be wary and fearful of... predators!

Sadly, a lot of people (indeed on this thread) refer to you/us as. TERF or transphobic for referencing a “small number of cases” and would like us to not highlight these beasts as it casts the trans community in bad light.

let me be clear that some
Of those people (Jessica Yaniv) ARE NOT TRANS. He is a predator beast with an obsession in underage girls and tampons.

We need the wider trans community to be calling these fuckers out big time. And making it clear they they do NOT rep trans people.

I truly believe most folk don’t have an issue with trans people at all. It’s this rush to bring in hasty legislation to bow to woke af culture that people fear. Why? Because that legislation allows these types of animals to abuse it, align themselves with trans and access vulnerable members of society for criminal gain.

If you believe this is an acceptable level of collateral damage for the greater good then have a f*cking word with yourself.

 

[jewelkitty]

 

[jewelkitty]

Traumatised women, victims of rape, should always come before trans demands to be included in every single female-only space, including ones for some of the most vulnerable in society.

Canada's oldest rape crisis centre stripped of city funding for refusing to accept trans women

In a statement, Vancouver Rape Relief said they were the victim of 'discrimination against women in the name of inclusion'

nationalpost.com

With things happening such as this, they are direct enemies of feminism.

"Meanwhile, the measure was cheered by activists who have long singled out Vancouver Rape Relief as a bastion of “trans-exclusionary” behaviour."
How can you possibly think they're not dangerous to feminism and women when they cheer things like his?

 

[judsmum]

Women are scared to speak out because we are labeled transphobic or a TERF.

You see this is where I fail - I clearly am not a nice person because I really, REALLY don’t give a fuck if someone labels me a TERF or a transphobic. My legitimately female arse gives no shits.

 

[bubbletea123]

Inforapenny said:

Haters gonna hate: World champion McKinnon wins again
Dr. Rachel McKinnon sent a message at UCI World Masters that even President Trump’s eldest son heard.

www.google.com

Still ok?

Sharon Davies also speaks frankly and openly about the concerns of the trans women over shadowing female athletes.

Not fair but again not a good enough argument for those who are brain washed

Sod men who have a penis being upset because you don't fancy them. Are you honestly saying you feel sorry for them because you may reject them???

We are living in a dangerous patriarchy when a women is apologetic about not fancying men

I fucking hate this dolt. She changed her name to Veronica Ivy so when you google her no bad articles come up. She is dangerous. Look at how she is built, no wonder she beats a biological woman. She is built like a MAN because she was born a man.

Look at the size of her compared to other women. It is atrocious.

 

[LittleMy]

You've taken what the poster said out of context. Here is what the poster said: "But deep down if I had a kid and it ended up trans of course I’d love my child but I don’t think I’d ever be on board with it.

Gay or lesbian - fine.

But I don’t know I just find trans so bizarre. I always have, I don’t wish harm on them but it’s just odd"

The poster is saying that she would not willingly "trans" her child. That does not make her a monster. If I decided to become a man tomorrow, I can't see my Mum being "on board" with it- that doesn't mean she'd love me any less or that she's a monster, it just means deep down she wouldn't be "on board" with it

Was just about to say this. It’s not the same situation, but of a similar point.

I have children with autism. Did I know that they would have autism before I had them? No. Do I fully accept it? Not fully, no. Not when I see the struggles they face because of it and how difficult it makes their lives compared with that of neurotypical children. Does it make me love them any less? Of course not. Should I have not bothered having the children that I love so much just because deep down I can’t fully accept their autism?

ETA: My children will never know that I feel this way because I accept them to the best of my ability and would never tell them about how sometimes I cry at night because of the way things are and how I wish autism wasn’t a part of it all. They are just the feelings I feel when I’m alone with my thoughts; it doesn’t change the reality. I took it as being what the poster meant with regards to having a Trans child. That doesn’t make you a monster, it makes you human.

 

[Uninteresteduna]