Gender Discussions #3

[BostonFernGreen]

@Lava i really enjoy your contributions so thank you for sticking around when the majority of the thread is gender critical. It’s fascinating to hear all sides.

Before I did any research I was firmly pro trans rights, mainly because I always support the vulnerable and the underdog and I intuitively felt that was what a trans person MUST be. I assumed that and that was a valuable lesson. It is so arrogant to assume vulnerability and need in an entire group of people.

I would now class myself as gender critical plus firmly pro trans rights and support. The two can go together.

I just wanted to flag up a common misconception about puberty blockers. Children do have them to treat precocious puberty. That’s because early puberty carries some risks. For example, developing breasts early increases exposure to oestrogen over a lifetime and therefore possibly increases the risk of breast cancer.

So when prescribing those things for a physically healthy child with gender dysphoria it isn’t like for like and the comparison does not stand. You can’t take evidence for treating one condition and use it for another. The body doesn’t work like that. For example some antibiotics work against one particular bacteria. You could not then say how outrageous nobody is giving them to me tor this other infection.

An intervention by a doctor or nurse has to pass a threshold of evidence in order to be paid for by commissioning groups and in order to be practicing within the strict rules of professional conduct.

We need to carefully weigh the evidence and during the court case, it simply was not there. Why did the Tavistock not collate the numbers as they went? If they are campaigning for better treatment for these young people they have a duty to convince the world and other medical practitioners. They have the experience. Where is it presented?

If you were in court to defend yourself because something you did caused actual harm to a young woman, and you had a file of evidence to demonstrate that yes, harm was caused in this case, but your actions were reasonable because look, in 99% of cases, the outcome was measurably good, would you just leave that file of evidence at home? If so, why?

 

[Aquamarina]

Thanks. I really appreciate it.

But I wasn’t surprised. Hate directed at gender critical women is socially acceptable... encouraged even, isn’t it? Doesn’t matter if the hate comes from other women because they’re ignorant about what we’re facing here - the most important thing is to virtual signal

I actually forgot myself in that thread and said too much. I should have known it was a bad idea to take my opinions outside of a safe space like this thread.

I am a regular poster on the JM thread and I never discuss my GC views, as they all seem very anti any criticism of trans issues there.

Like you say, it’s safest to keep stuff like this here or on the JK Rowling thread. It makes me so sad and angry that women discussing their own rights and spaces are made to feel like this. But thankfully, decisions like the one made in the High Court yesterday convince me even more that we are on the right side of history.
One day (hopefully very soon) people will look back at all of this trans nonsense and wonder why we allowed this very tiny minority to have so much influence and power. It disturbs me that so many women are supportive of what is essentially a men’s rights movement that seeks to shut down and erase actual women.

 

[Doc]

Is anyone else not bothered about being called a TRANSPHOOOOOOBE anymore? I genuinely don’t care because it’s so fucking puerile and thrown out with such regularity it has no effect.

I don’t care how people choose to present or whatever dysphoria they’re playing out. Go live your life. But I do care about MY rights being weakened in preference of a tiny minority of trans people who, until the wokearati decided they needed a trendy new crusade, were quietly living their lives as they wanted anyway. I care about common sense ethics being eroded because of the “you can be whatever you want to be, it’s ok” narrative (see paedophilia) and self id leaving the gate wide open for not just dysphoric transwomen but abusive and perverted men to live out their oppressive kinks on women and girls.

 

[openbook1]

I am on a group for Endometriosis, a while back, there was a post that said "hey ladies" and one of the members commented on it saying we shouldn't use "ladies, girls" etc as it isn't inclusive to "people" who get endometriosis. It took all my strength to not say something. Well, a few days ago the mod on the page posted saying she knows there have been conflicting views and that we want to be inclusive but this page is for "women" with endo. I was like and said how jarring it was to see that we were told not to say "ladies" or "girls" and that we shouldn't be erasing one minority (woman) to make another (trans) feel welcome. Stop stepping on us. Well, then one member replied to me saying that it isn't just women that get periods and that the reproductive organs are not male/female, and the phrase "terf" was thrown around. Another said we should use the term "endowarriors" instead and I replied saying it is hypocritical to erase women's phrases to make someone else feel more included. That person then replied saying "not to use attacking words like "hypocritical." LOL, fuck off. Stop policing what I say. Thankfully, more people agreed with my comments than not.

I wanted to scream. Well, one of them then went and set up an "inclusive" endo page for trans/gender fluid. Good riddance.

 

[HoGi]

I hate the term cis. Yet it is forced upon me.

If any other oppressed group expressed a dislike of a term it would be dropped and deemed hate speech to use it. Yet cis-woman is still shoved down our throats

 

[IndominusRex]

I wish people who believe TW to be the most persecuted and at risk group also were campaigning for the abolition of the sex trade that is responsible for 90% of TW murders but somehow they never are.

 

[IndominusRex]

Oh absolutely. As Glosswitch said, we still know which half of the population is expected to wipe the arses and wash the floors!

But at least we don’t have to suffer the horror of being *gasp* misgendered . We can’t possibly imagine the trauma and inhumanity of such a hateful act .

 

[judgejohndeed]

That not at all what I said. I can give some context to my answer to your elderly women question if you'd like? I am a care worker. We have a lot of discussions around the balance between enabling residents to choose who provides them with personal care and whether that preference can be met. We haven't found the right answer in all the years I've been doing this work, so I'm sorry that I'm not able to provide a succinct one for you now.

I'm sorry but especially as a care worker I truly don't understand how you can think anything other than 'these are very old, very vulnerable women, and they should have their personal, intimate - probably embarrassing - care performed by whoever makes them the most comfortable'. It makes me feel unwell that you think any trans person's gender identity is more important than an elderly and vulnerable woman's right to be washed, be seen naked, whatever, by a woman if that's what they want.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

@Lava With respect, using your friends anecdotal experience as a basis for your belief that trans people face more danger makes you look a little silly when there are actual facts and figures available

All of us women (no idea if you are or not) have many horror stories over the course of our lifetime where we've felt threatened and in danger. It's not the oppression Olympics. The bottom line is, more women are harmed than trans but you still believe women don't deserve private spaces?

 

[Doc]

I think there’s a fundamental shift in the trans movement from medical dysphoria to a gender free-for-all, which tends to boil down to how someone presents themselves to others and sexual preferences/kinks.

The biggest problem with this, of course, is legislative imposition. You are legally requiring people to be complicit with what is effectively cosplay AND compromising women’s rights - necessary rights to protect from the physical and societal disadvantages faced - in the process by opening the gates to the wolves the legislation was designed for in order to keep them out. It’s literal misogyny.

 

[Detty pig]

"I'll be protecting my mental health" can we talk for a second about how all these people are so fragile, can we wonder if maybe it is their mental health? If being transgender in itself is part of a bigger mental health problem? Just thoughts.

 

[Enigmata]

Just read in the DM that Jenni Murray is being condemned for going on Loose Women and saying that trans women are not the same as real women.

She mentioned the fact that they grew up with male privilege and would always be genetically male.

Nearly all the comments said that she is correct. I only read the DM because I enjoy the comments!!!

 

[Detty pig]

Im sorry but I can never see a person with a penis as a woman. Call me transphobic all you want, but if i can tell someone is a man and they are in the female bathroom (for example) i will feel scared, as will many a woman, and we matter too.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I also think it's used as a slur to make women feel small

 

[HoGi]

As I said I'll need to do more research on it but going by, say, the amount of street harassment that I know that my trans female friends receive I would say that it probably is more dangerous than for cis women.

But girls receive street harassment from the minute they start developing boobs etc. And have to endure that their whole lives? Harassment isn't exclusive to transwomen.

Girls fear being attacked and many will walk home with keys between their fingers etc. More crimes are committed against women and girls than transwomen.

 

[maytoseptember]

I don't want to take away treatment from trans people

The main issue I have is what do you define as “treatment”? Dysphoria is a mental health issue and should be treated as such, however it seems the hardline trans activists (probably AGPs) had their way, which means the first line treatment is now affirmation, hormones and surgery.

Hormones obviously have significant side effects (especially for females taking high dose testosterone). I’m also pretty certain we’re facing an epidemic of young women regretting their double mastectomies - Keira Bell being only one example.

But isn’t it strange that hardly anyone talks about how primitive and mutilating “bottom” surgery is? The long term outcomes are horrific. For the very small number of MTFs who opt for it (most would never want to lose their penises, for obvious reasons) it’s a case of creating a hole where a hole doesn’t belong. Battling to keep that hole open. Trying to keep it clean. It’s no way to live. The same applies to FTM surgery, stripping arms of muscle and attempting to create a facsimile of a penis.

This is a long winded way of saying I think the medical profession sleep-walked into the affirmation model: offering harmful drugs and surgery instead of mental health support. Greedy and unscrupulous doctors saw a way to make money and a name for themselves by doing experimental (and pretty unsuccessful) surgeries. In no other area of medicine would this approach be tolerated. I don’t have any data in front of me, but I’m pretty sure that the rates of mental illness in gender dysphoric people, pre and post transition, is largely the same. So if medical transition doesn’t help, why is it still being done?

 

[Gym&Tonic]

Just like male supermarket staff are having to decide what is essential for a person who menstruates, in hospitality we are expected to keep telling people to wear masks and log in on an app. Some of the lowest paid people in society expected to help control this virus more than the millionaires who sit at the top making the decisions.

‘A person who menstruates’. You mean women then?

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

That’s great and all but I’d rather West Midlands Police focus on tackling the increase in domestic violence reports in the region through lockdown this year, rather than virtue signalling and parading their (probably) one trans employee around on social media like a show pony for woke points.

Also how can you be someone’s brother AND sister?

 

[SqualorVictoria]

Saying people and not women is dangerous.

They are underestimating how lacking/nonexistent sex education is and that some women and girls don’t understand their body parts; don’t know what a cervix is and if they have one.

You've nailed it. In terms of cervical cancer, there should be no dicking around or vagueness. It makes me furious!

So services for women can’t present themselves as services for women in case those who don’t want to be women get offended and those who want to be women feel left out?
Jesus fucking Christ!

A dick in a dress might get their autogynephilic knickers in a twist if the word woman is used so their "feelings" are more important than women who it actually affects

 

[Gym&Tonic]

Has anyone been on Tinder lately? If not I suggest that you do and put that you are a women looking for women. You will then see lots of men who are obviously now self identifying as women wearing really bad wigs and badly applied make up looking like what they are, men in very bad drag. It’s so disturbing, I feel so disgusted that the trans community has been infiltrated by these misogynistic men who feel entitled to women and their bodies and will even pretend to be ones in order to gain access to gay women.