Gender Discussions #3

[Bitofthebubbly]

It’s fucking nuts. Can’t get my head round it. Can’t see where these parents are coming from at all. All I see is a healthy child who is perfect as they are, it’s really quite disgusting that parents confirm the idea to kids that their bodies are wrong and need changing. I grew up being told we should learn to love and accept ourselves as we are otherwise we will never be truly happy in life, seems to make sense to me. What the fuck went wrong since then?

In my experience children who end up transitioning almost always have unfiltered, unsupervised access to the internet. The parents probably think their kids are watching peppa pig when really they’re being brainwashed by TRA’s on YouTube.

Treating Endometriosis as a Women's Disease Hurts Patients of All Genders

Living with endo is already hard when you're a white cis woman. For LGBTQ people dealing with a "women's disease," it's especially painful.

www.vice.com

affluent white woman disease? my broke mixed race body must have missed the memo. I'm sorry but this comes off as a narc narrative.

I cannot put into words how much I loath the term “white cis woman”. As if we are in the same category and have the same privileges as a “white rich man”. Just another way of trying to shut women up and put us in our place. It doesn’t even make sense being used in this context. Endo isn’t a disease that primarily affects white women, at least not to my knowledge, and I don’t know why they’ve made that assumption.

It’s also exclusionary. Not all us ‘terfs’ are white (lipstick alley is full of women like us). But I guess these types don’t see woc as people so that makes sense that they would exclude them and only use them when comparing to transwomen.

I’m angry today. Some woke bro on my socials keeps posting about ‘terfs’ and how awful we are. Nothing to see here, just another straight dude wading in on a debate that has nothing to do with him. He knows little about all this beyond “transwomen are women” and fully supports mermaids. Worst thing is he’s in the public eye to an extent and has a fairly decent platform to spread this nonsense. I am just waiting for the day this whole thing implodes. There will be so much egg on so many faces. Whether that be tomorrow or 20 years from now. I know in my heart I’m on the right side.

 

[Doc]

I’ve never heard “cis men” used with anywhere near the same prevalence as “cis women”

 

[Meh]

How come anyone presenting an even vaguely pro-trans rights argument is expected to present fully cited peer reviewed research to back up their opinions when anti-trans opinions can be presented without evidence or backed up by extremely biased sources like Trans Crimes and Fair Play for Women?

I've been called insane and a conspiracy theorist for attempting to have a nuanced discussion. The title 'gender discussions' is pretty misleading when the majority of posters in this thread seem set on having an anti-trans circle jerk.

Sigh.

People are not having an anti-trans circle jerk as you so nicely put it. All I read is post after post of people explaining they are NOT anti-trans at all. People are asking questions, valid ones at that and questioning things. Yet this makes them hateful, bigots, TERF (don’t even start me on that outrage)

My “stance” if it needs to be called out:-
Yes, trans people exist
Yes, trans people have the right to live as they please
Yes, trans people should be free from harm/violence
No, I do not support or condone violence towards trans (or anyone for that matter)
Yes, trans (genuine trans) should have legal rights to identify as opposite gender and I will recognise them as such.
No, I refuse to be called a CIS-woman. Stop that please if referring to/about me.
No, I do not agree with the removal of female only spaces - where any man can claim he’s trans and use our spaces
Yes, I recognise that genuine trans woman have rights to be in women’s spaces.

My fundamental issue is the expansion of everyone included under the trans umbrella. This includes some fetishist and questionable motivated men. Until the trans community and wider LBTQ+ communities have a shake up and start to denounce these fringe elements of the “trans” community then, unfortunately, more people will have concerns.

I put “trans” in quotes because I do not believe the likes of Jessica Yaniv is an actual trans woman or reflective of trans people. I think he does the trans group NO favours at all. Yet most TRAs stay silent on his predatory behaviour towards children.
Which doesn’t reflect trans. So why not publicly condemn him?!

 

[SoulRebel]

What do you (general you) believe that transgender people are?


As I said before, the world is very dangerous for transgender women. If a man were to want to enter women's facilities I'm sure there are easier options. I don't think it's impossible that it could happen, just improbable.

That not at all what I said. I can give some context to my answer to your elderly women question if you'd like? I am a care worker. We have a lot of discussions around the balance between enabling residents to choose who provides them with personal care and whether that preference can be met. We haven't found the right answer in all the years I've been doing this work, so I'm sorry that I'm not able to provide a succinct one for you now.

I can.
I worked with vulnerable people - mainly people with a learning disability, challenging behaviour and acute mental health problems for over 30 years. I managed a domiciliary care agency before leaving the UK and can unequivocally say that when service users are asked who they would like to provide their personal care most women say that they want a woman to do this. Most women without a disability say the same so I think that this preference should be respected. Your phrase 'whether that preference can be met' is very telling as it shows a service being led by the provider rather than the service user. Incidentally, most men don't care but I suspect that this is due to them being used to care work being provided by women.

I find this whole issue very conflicting, I don't want to negate trans peoples' rights to enjoy a fulfilling life but I do want to protect women's rights.

I'll go back to one of one of my original comments on this issue, one that takes us away from toilets and changing rooms, but one that I think will have repercussions;- sport. When trans women start playing professional golf, football, tennis, cricket etc. then women have no chance.

 

[holliebollie]

We also discussed how places could ‘help’ by having gender neutral bathrooms. I put on my brave face (I know it’s only Zoom but I’m shy) and said that in my teenage daughter’s school, where they ripped out the male/female loos to make cubicles in the corridors, she won’t go to the toilet all day. This is due to worry about noise: toilet and sanitary products. Someone else said their daughter has had UTIs due to the same thing in a similar set up and I was so happy to see others saying that we still need separate toilets. I said a third space is surely the best way forward that give everyone the option and that my daughter’s safe space has now been taken away. I hope that line made some of them think but I doubt it.

 

[Pinkblush]

How is cis derogatory?

Really?? It becomes derogatory when groups label other groups outside of their own with unecessary labels. Its been shoved in face of heterosexual females and created by people who are not heterosexual females. We've been fighting male patriachry for centuries and their dominant hold and now more domineering condescending crap from other groups.

 

[Chum]

James O'Brien on LBC just now had an hour of calls from women who told about their experiences of being harassed and cat-called etc. The premise for these calls was a report according to which a high number (Can't remember the exact percentage; 40? 50?) of 14-21 year-old girls and young women were harassed during the first lockdown and James O'B wanted to hear womens experiences on this.
All going well with your "typical" calls (e.g. 15-year-old getting cat-called 3 times during a walk to school this morning), until the last call; a transgender woman (going by voice, not a teenager and by their own words, not fully transitioned) telling how a van load of men cat called and told her she's sexy and as a reply she "put on her lowest voice" and thanked them. She laughed at the van men's disgusted/embarrassed reaction while telling the story.
I am fuming.. I understand transwomen face issues, but to compare this to an insecure teenager afraid for her physical safety and confidence because of adult men, is NOT comparable in this context! Call me TERF all you want, but if this was my 16- year old daughter vs. a 5"9 transwoman with a male voice, I will argue till the cow's come home that this is not a shared experience between them.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I once saw a tweet saying that it's problematic to call trans women were born men as they were "assigned" a sex by a nurse/ doctor and had no say in it. Sex is observed, not assigned

Also what gets me is that the language and goalposts seem to change on an almost daily basis. I thought it was fine to say "identify as" but now that's apparently transphobic. It's impossible to keep up. Someone could use a phrase that was perfectly acceptable one day and then find themselves being called transphobic the next. There is no consistency whatsoever

 

[emmer_moans]

The state of this!

So basically if you are not attracted to a trans person who could 'present' as male or female, you have a genitalia fetish and are transphobic?! Doesn't make sense! Even if as a heterosexual woman, if I am attracted to one biological man but not another, does that mean I am manphobic?! Or if I am attracted to only my partner, I am phobic of everyone else? What if I am asexual, am I man and women phobic then? Not being attracted to someone is not a hate crime. F sake.

 

[Zenchick101]

Treating Endometriosis as a Women's Disease Hurts Patients of All Genders

Living with endo is already hard when you're a white cis woman. For LGBTQ people dealing with a "women's disease," it's especially painful.

www.vice.com

affluent white woman disease? my broke mixed race body must have missed the memo. I'm sorry but this comes off as a narc narrative.

 

[emmer_moans]

Yeah, I agree. It's not just the homophobia but it's the blatant eroding of boundaries and disregard for body autonomy. They cover all this by saying, "no one is forcing you.....but just admit you're a transphobe" and of course, being a transphobe means you're fair game and they can do what they like to you - get you fired, destroy your business, reputation etc. There can't be any consent if there are consequences for saying no. The whole environment is coercive, and it's not just trans people participating, it's the 'cis' allies as well. All in the name of validating trans people - well, trans women mainly.

And yeah, the whole redefinition of bisexuality isn't going down very well with my bisexual friends. I'm sure as well they (the woke queers) are pushing for homosexual to be defined as offensive, which, in context, it can be but I'm 100% sure this is a response to gay people choosing to use the word homosexual to articulate our sexuality since lesbian and gay has also been going through redefinition to some extent. So, if all the words we use are being taken away, we're left with the 'offensive' word homosexual, they can twist this and say we've allied ourselves with the homophobes or something like that.

I agree. Some of the ‘cis’ allies are the worst for hurling around the transphobe and TERF labels. I just don’t understand why believing in biological sex means one should be doxxed, fired, and ruined emotionally and reputationally. It’s almost fascist in approach. You don’t agree with us? Then quash you, discredit you to thousands of Twitterers, hush you. It’s terrifying to see. I am a heterosexual woman so I can’t claim to speak for the LGB community but I am an ally, and probably if I think about it, an ally for genuine trans people who accept that biological sex is a thing - I.e. accept that they are changing from one to the other without expecting everyone else to change in reference to their decision. I am not on board for all this erasing of the name of woman, or the identities of lesbian, gay and bisexual people. It’s absolutely absurd to gaslight the LGB community, as well as the heterosexual community, into giving into their demands for changes in ways we describe ourselves.

Some stray posters may dive into this thread as they often do and try to beat us over the head to say we are transphobic, and they may claim we are taking this out of proportion, but I say this: this month alone so much has been happening regarding trans radicalism. In realtime we are seeing companies caving into woke-pressure and in the process fumbling about it and sometimes then even being bashed by TRAs as not quite saying it right. It feels like every way you turn on social media there’s someone waiting to tell you you are a transphobe. “Ha, gotcha”.

 

[Hefflen]

I’ve just liked a few of the tweets that support Keira, just waiting for the TERF hunters to come at me.

You're brave. I don't touch any Twitter posts or threads about it. I want to write successfully one day. No chance of that with the merest hint of TERF. And I'm not a 'TERF' whatever that is (channelling Prince Charles re love), I just think you can 'identify' as whatever you like, but that doesn't change biological reality so let's talk about it in detail. But you can't talk about it. You're not allowed. The only 'allowable' thing is TWAW and I just can't say that. So I don't say that and I don't say anything the other way either. I'm cowardly and silent. How many are there like me?

 

[HockyRorror]

I saw 'may have' because I vaguely remember her saying something like 'the name should have been a clue' or similar when she came out.

You're right, it is probably pointless of me to try and have a discussion with someone who doesn't believe that transgender people exist. I just assumed that the gender discussions thread would be a place in which to have, y'know... discussions about gender.

We are very much aware that transgender people exist. We wouldn’t have such a long running thread on something that doesn’t exist.

If by that you mean we don’t believe that some men have vaginas and some women have penises, you’re right, we don’t. I personally find it pointless to debate with someone that does believe that, but I’m willing to try. The reason I asked the question was to understand what sort of level any debate would be at. Your reply answered that.

I’d like you to stay. I am interested in having such discussion and it’s always interesting to hear from those “on the other side”. You haven’t been rude, aggressive or insulting from what I’ve seen so, hand on heart, don’t feel as though you are not welcome on this thread. But I do think that the “it’s pointless” comment is a bit of an easy get-out IMO.

 

[Detty pig]

Cis pisses me off as well as its always used by their community in a derogatory way along with the fact, as you say, woman or man is perfectly adequate to describe someone who identifies with their birth gender. Im actually quite sick of it being pushed. If you choose to be different thats on you. I find it baffling coming from the generation that pushed for gender equality and gender doesnt define you etc that suddenly its so important that people get upset that they arent the other gender.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Top parenting, and also illegal I think.

These stupid stupid well meaning parents. Who ever peddled the idea that blockers are nothing but a ‘pause’ button can burn in hell. Such a dangerous narrative that’s taken a life of its own.

Can’t wait till 30 years down the line when we inevitably start seeing the consequences of all these people using blockers and hormones not designed for their biological sex. No doubt the nhs will be left to pick up the pieces, if it even exists by then.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I am still, days later, absolutely gobsmacked by the Tavistock data and the fact that TRAs/anyone pro PBs who is in their right mind isn't rapidly climbing down from it. It is extremely deceptive that they kept this data from the court in Bell, knowing it was coming. Maugham, who just days ago was saying the GLP will be appealing on the basis of 'scientific evidence', for example. The more I read about it the more horrified I become. I read a very interesting thread yesterday on the issue of bone density - Tavi have tried to spin it as a positive that bone density of children on PBs 'remains the same' i.e. there isn't a decrease, but for all other children their bone density would increase. So that's years and years without bone density progression, opening those children up to stuff like osteoporosis. All because..what? They wanted to wear a dress? Wanted to play football? Parents can't parent their children and say no, wait until you're older? It's child abuse. That conclusion seems inescapable to me. And I cannot BELIEVE the gall of TRAs saying detrans people don't matter, or they're 'wrong' for putting their side out there. It's just so scary and cult like to me.

 

[Glortard]

As I said I'll need to do more research on it but going by, say, the amount of street harassment that I know that my trans female friends receive I would say that it probably is more dangerous than for cis women.

I have a friend who has been overweight pretty much his whole life and receives harassment in the street about his weight to the point where he sometimes does not leave the house. I have no doubt some trans people will experience the same harassment when going about their normal day and it will not be pleasant. However that is harassment which is night and day with actual violence against women

No trans person has been killed in the UK whilst sadly plenty of women have been and will continue to be

I fail to see how you would need to research that.

Trans statistics are being distorted by the reporting of hate incidents which are a complete waste of police time and also outright lies.

A prime example of the latter is suicide rates which was recently highlighted by the actress Ellen Page who know wants to be called Elliot who stated that 40% of Trans adults report attempting suicide. Now given a quick google search suggests that there are 200k-500k in the UK (according to the Govt Equalities office) this means that somewhere between 80k-200k attempt suicide? Total fabrication and this along with other dubious facts are used to shut down any criticism frequently.

No, I'll use it when I need to differentiate

trans women and women....there its not hard

 

[rosemarina]

And please drop the “cis” crap.

 

[Narc ahoy]

@Lava , why have you conveniently ignored the following question, despite answering all the others:

What is your opinion of the fact that around 20% of the men's prison population are inside for sex offenses, while around 48% of transwomen are inside for sex offenses?

A further question:

If Group A as a whole are strong; prone to committing sex crimes and violence; and have the ability to rape and impregnate.

And Group B are three times weaker than group A; are prone to being targeted by A's sex crimes and violence; and are reproductively vulnerable to A; therefore requiring safe spaces from Group A in order to access society,

If Group C are equally strong as A; equally as prone to committing sex crimes and violence against Group B; and 80-90% retain the ability to rape/impregnate Group B.

Why should Group C be treated as a part of Group B?


Conservative response: Group C members should accept they are part of A. Group C should be disbanded.

Liberal response: The main difference between Group A and Group C is that C's do not want to be A's, and wish to be B's. Group A sometimes attacks Group C for this. Therefore Group B should pretend that Group C were actually Group B all along, allowing them into their safe spaces. Group B should also pretend that there is no risk in this, as this would prove that C's are not actually B's, thus destroying the pretense. It is Group B's fault that Group A attacks C's, because if B pretended harder, A would surely be convinced that C's really were B's.

Rational response: Group C should remain as its own separate group, and with their multi-billion dollar funding, should create their own safe spaces.

 

[CheshireLove]

Good on James Dreyfus, looking at his Twitter timeline he has absolutely no truck with the modern trans ideology. The tweet below from Stonewall is utterly shameful

Shame on Stonewall, using the bravery of this gay man to further their own trans agenda. Stonewall have shown on many occasion that they are no ally to gay men and especially lesbian women.