Gender Discussions #2

[thatstupidcat]

Kill me

It is a serious achievement for a doctor to be struck off from the GMC, and being a tool online is less actionable than quantifiable incompetence. Also, mysogyny isn’t a hate crime. What protects Harrop is he’s a locum, which tells me he bounces around practices so no partner is responsible for him, and I suspect he isn’t full time either so the GMC have bigger fish to fry perhaps.

Plenty of doctors struggle with their ignorance of women’s issues (such as the true biological cost of pregnancy) and anatomy so he’s not alone on that. Contrary to the stereotype, some of the most brutal doctors I’ve encountered when it came to women’s issues such as endo and the menopause were ladies as well.

As a wealthy white dude, Harrop’s entitlement is equally unsurprising. His morality has a massive blind spot as he doesn’t see anything wrong with paying filthy lucre in exchange for babies and the resultant literal baby farming that would follow (I watched through my fingers a documentary years ago about one in India).

On a sidenote, I read a while back that the Law Society in the UK is trying to ”liberalise“ surrogacy laws. A poster on Mumsnet claimed at a conference on the matter she attended with dozens of delegates, she was only one of a small handful of women present.

I suspect the increased rhetoric on surrogacy commercialisation is perhaps a sign that the next debate is that one.

 

[emmer_moans]

Has she actually said exactly what she thinks was wrong with what JKR said? So many people just say it's wrong but no one can ever pinpoint exactly what is so terrible.

Because I am willing to bet most people just read the tweets and not her actual words, and they get swept up with agreeing with the loudest on SM.

Also, commoditising surrogacycould mean women being guilted into carrying for friends, or being a surrogate because of poverty etc. I understand true friends doing it for true friends who are struggling to conceive but I think it could become a very slippery slope if women are being commoditised.

 

[Doc]

Does anyone know anyone in real life who is an active pro-trans lobbyist (as in, militant and outspoken about it)? Or is it all just contained on Twitter and within Jameela Jamil's timeline? Is it more common in the U.S? I have never met anyone IRL who actually believes JK Rowling is a transphobe, but I would really like to know where these people actually are. I move in fairly liberal circles and I'm in my early 30s, not like I'm a dinosaur hanging out with old people who only read the Express. Any IRL stories greatly appreciated.

The only people I’ve ever seen local are the types who have been to university (not common in my town) and enlighten us plebs that they left behind on “human rights” from their professional accounts.

ETA: they don’t like it when you’re able to box them into the logical corner either. They flounce.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

God I hope surrogacy laws don’t get relaxed in the U.K. The thought that someone could see me as nothing more than a potential vessel for their baby makes my skin itch. No amount of money could convince me to carry someone else’s child, it would be detrimental to my mental health. How ever if I got desperate and needed the money then I may consider it, which is exactly why it’s wrong for money to be involved in this situation. Women should not be getting pregnancy willy nilly for cash, it’s not right.

I don’t want to live in a world where surrogacy becomes easier and more accessible than adopting a child who is already here and needs a home now.

Which reminds me there’s a documentary on Channel 4 catch up called “Our baby: a modern Miracle” about a trans couple; Hannah and Jake Graff using a surrogate for their baby. It aired fairly recently and the baby was born just as covid kicked off. The surrogate was a lovely, kind hearted lady and the couple were just so entitled throughout the whole thing. I think what angers me most about these situations is how the surrogate mum is just forgotten about once she’s given birth. I get that the whole point is she has a baby for someone else but women need support post birth whether they keep the baby or not. Has anyone seen it?

 

[SqualorVictoria]

There's just so many things wrong with it. Dr whatever his name is who tweeted that just proves to me that some (not all) gay men are the most misogynistic of all. He sees women as no more than a breeding animal

 

[rosemarina]

I've had a lot of gay male friends in the past, and it took me ages to see how openly misogynistic most of them were. I have a theory that most men are misogynists, but for gay men there's nothing in it for them pretending not to be. Straight men have an interest in hiding it on a personal level because if they're too overt about it, it could prevent them "getting" sex from women.

 

[Mycuppatea]

I agree, many of these transwomen seem to be weird white men who might be otherwise known as incels, desperate to be oppressed and get some attention whatever way they can. I don’t doubt some people experience genuine dysphoria but I agree with you above that for a lot of people this is surely some kind of mental health issue.

We have a trans person who lives near us and they have taken over the last several months to shouting things at my 13 year old daughter if she's on her own or with me, a short fat middle aged woman but oddly enough, they are quiet as a mouse if my large husband or son are with us. We sometimes hear them shouting at other people in the street too, but again the other victims all appear to be women, girls or young teenage lads on their own.

It is bizarre. I may disagree with trans ideology but we act in a socially appropriate way when we are around trans people including my daughter's friends and children of my own friends, so I have no idea why we are being singled out. But this person screams "trans women are women" and "I'm a woman" and even more disturbing things recently about feeling their body parts. There's nothing feminine or womanly about this person. They look like an aggressive, unhinged man and I'm terrified of them and scared it will devolve into something physical. We are now considering how to approach the police who will probably see the foul mouthed, 6 foot tall, well muscled person in a denim mini and fake fur coat as the victim not the teenaged girl.

 

[emmer_moans]

God I hope surrogacy laws don’t get relaxed in the U.K. The thought that someone could see me as nothing more than a potential vessel for their baby makes my skin itch. No amount of money could convince me to carry someone else’s child, it would be detrimental to my mental health. How ever if I got desperate and needed the money then I may consider it, which is exactly why it’s wrong for money to be involved in this situation. Women should not be getting pregnancy willy nilly for cash, it’s not right.

I don’t want to live in a world where surrogacy becomes easier and more accessible than adopting a child who is already here and needs a home now.

Which reminds me there’s a documentary on Channel 4 catch up called “Our baby: a modern Miracle” about a trans couple; Hannah and Jake Graff using a surrogate for their baby. It aired fairly recently and the baby was born just as covid kicked off. The surrogate was a lovely, kind hearted lady and the couple were just so entitled throughout the whole thing. I think what angers me most about these situations is how the surrogate mum is just forgotten about once she’s given birth. I get that the whole point is she has a baby for someone else but women need support post birth whether they keep the baby or not. Has anyone seen it?

Exactly this.

 

[mindlessness]

I’ve mentioned before I have a left-wing friend who called JK a transphobe when the essay was first published. We were at lunch and I asked her if she’d actually read it, because it was nuanced and pretty clear Rowling wasn’t being transphobic and was raising important concerns etc. She hadn’t read the essay. But she’d read other people saying Rowling was transphobic and decided that was the case. I think it’s partly because it became the prevailing ‘woke’ perspective? And people are afraid to step away from the narrative for fear of being kicked out of the club?
Who knows.

 

[emmer_moans]

I've just seen my 13 year old female cousin share one of those petitions for self ID. I think a lot of people might think that they are doing these petitions out of compassion, #bekind but a 13 year old hasn't really had the lived experience of being a woman to quite understand the implications of immediate self ID. I think a lot of people mean well but don't realise quite what the follow through is. I don't mean to be patronising but at 13 I would have signed any petition if all my friends told me to.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I've just seen my 13 year old female cousin share one of those petitions for self ID. I think a lot of people might think that they are doing these petitions out of compassion, #bekind but a 13 year old hasn't really had the lived experience of being a woman to quite understand the implications of immediate self ID. I think a lot of people mean well but don't realise quite what the follow through is. I don't mean to be patronising but at 13 I would have signed any petition if all my friends told me to.

That's so sad. It's not patronising, a 13 year old has no lived experience as a woman at all.

I've had a lot of gay male friends in the past, and it took me ages to see how openly misogynistic most of them were. I have a theory that most men are misogynists, but for gay men there's nothing in it for them pretending not to be. Straight men have an interest in hiding it on a personal level because if they're too overt about it, it could prevent them "getting" sex from women.

You may have a point but I also think that you can't really hide misogyny- they can pretend all they want but it will be there to see as plain as day in their actions.

But yeah, definitely some of the most misogynistic men I know are gay men.

 

[emm]

I’ve mentioned before I have a left-wing friend who called JK a transphobe when the essay was first published. We were at lunch and I asked her if she’d actually read it, because it was nuanced and pretty clear Rowling wasn’t being transphobic and was raising important concerns etc. She hadn’t read the essay. But she’d read other people saying Rowling was transphobic and decided that was the case. I think it’s partly because it became the prevailing ‘woke’ perspective? And people are afraid to step away from the narrative for fear of being kicked out of the club?
Who knows.

I think that's the case with so many things now, and with Twitter having such a sort word limit there is no time for nuance or rationality

 

[judgejohndeed]

Sorry to go back to surrogacy when we’ve moved on but just to say I actually think the surrogacy laws we have are already too lenient. In theory yes it’s unlawful to pay a surrogate but if you look at the case law to my knowledge there has never been a case where the funds paid have been refused. There can be huge amounts changing hands here and the court will never refuse to make the parental order on the basis of extensive costs, because that would leave the child in a parentless vacuum.

To me it is extremely irresponsible for anyone to be considering surrogacy during the pandemic. I saw a case yesterday where the surrogate is in another country to the intended parents, I believe China, and due to the pandemic cannot pass the child to the intended parents. This means a woman who did not actually sign up to parent this child has been left with the child for now, inevitably going to form a bond by parenting, only to have to relinquish the child later. Not to mention women are having to give birth alone right now. Given we have no idea how long covid is going to last, it is extremely unethical for anyone to even be thinking about surrogacy right now especially.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

No need to be sorry @judgejohndeed , it's such an important topic. Agree with every word you've said.

 

[CheshireLove]

Sorry to go back to surrogacy when we’ve moved on but just to say I actually think the surrogacy laws we have are already too lenient. In theory yes it’s unlawful to pay a surrogate but if you look at the case law to my knowledge there has never been a case where the funds paid have been refused. There can be huge amounts changing hands here and the court will never refuse to make the parental order on the basis of extensive costs, because that would leave the child in a parentless vacuum.

To me it is extremely irresponsible for anyone to be considering surrogacy during the pandemic. I saw a case yesterday where the surrogate is in another country to the intended parents, I believe China, and due to the pandemic cannot pass the child to the intended parents. This means a woman who did not actually sign up to parent this child has been left with the child for now, inevitably going to form a bond by parenting, only to have to relinquish the child later. Not to mention women are having to give birth alone right now. Given we have no idea how long covid is going to last, it is extremely unethical for anyone to even be thinking about surrogacy right now especially.

There are many surrogacy babies, all kept in the same room, in Russia and Ukraine waiting to be picked up. And the women in Ukraine who carry these babies get paid an absolute pittance.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...f-kyiv-and-the-women-who-give-birth-for-money

And don’t forget baby Gammy. A twin left behind in Thailand by his parents because he has downs. The parents took the sister back though.

 

[emm]

There's just so many things wrong with it. Dr whatever his name is who tweeted that just proves to me that some (not all) gay men are the most misogynistic of all. He sees women as no more than a breeding animal

yeh I agree, I had a gay male boss like this and the things he used to say in meetings were shocking, I always wish I'd secretly recorded it

Sorry pressed enter before I meant to! I find it extra starnge as you would think being part of a minority that has been (and still very much is) persecuted and marginalised they would be more sympathetic (as the other poster said, of course this is in no means all gay people, obviously, I have lots of gay friends who are not like this at all)

 

[judgejohndeed]

There are many surrogacy babies, all kept in the same room, in Russia and Ukraine waiting to be picked up. And the women in Ukraine who carry these babies get paid an absolute pittance.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...f-kyiv-and-the-women-who-give-birth-for-money

And don’t forget baby Gammy. A twin left behind in Thailand by his parents because he has downs. The parents took the sister back though.

It’s so awful. I don’t even know how the law can really protect these women because on the one hand you have those who get burdened with a baby they didn’t sign up for, so some people call for an immediate transfer and parental responsibility so that those women are protected...but equally if a woman does give birth to a surrogate child and wants to keep it I very much think she ought to be allowed to do so, and those laws wouldn’t allow her to. This is all why surrogacy shouldn’t be a commercial endeavour though, women don’t know how they will feel in advance and you cannot contract into that.

I am particularly disgusted by the way that Benjamin hasn’t even found a surrogate yet but he’s talking about it like it’s a sure thing and he’ll easily find one. In another tweet he said he hopes their surrogate will become part of the extended family or something - what if she doesn’t want to? The whole thing is bad enough as it is but he’s not even looking to rent a womb now, he’s looking for a woman who is also happy to join his family after having to give up a child she birthed? How many women will want to do that and why does he think he can dictate the relationship she has with them? I would never be a paid surrogate but if I did I wouldn’t want anything to do with the family, surely it would be too painful.

 

[emm]

Sorry to go back to surrogacy when we’ve moved on but just to say I actually think the surrogacy laws we have are already too lenient. In theory yes it’s unlawful to pay a surrogate but if you look at the case law to my knowledge there has never been a case where the funds paid have been refused. There can be huge amounts changing hands here and the court will never refuse to make the parental order on the basis of extensive costs, because that would leave the child in a parentless vacuum.

To me it is extremely irresponsible for anyone to be considering surrogacy during the pandemic. I saw a case yesterday where the surrogate is in another country to the intended parents, I believe China, and due to the pandemic cannot pass the child to the intended parents. This means a woman who did not actually sign up to parent this child has been left with the child for now, inevitably going to form a bond by parenting, only to have to relinquish the child later. Not to mention women are having to give birth alone right now. Given we have no idea how long covid is going to last, it is extremely unethical for anyone to even be thinking about surrogacy right now especially.

This must be SO damaging for the mum on so many levels, first of all financially supporting the baby, but then clearly she will end up bonding with it and giving it away (if she ends up doing so) will be traumatic for them both

 

[judgejohndeed]

Sorry pressed enter before I meant to! I find it extra starnge as you would think being part of a minority that has been (and still very much is) persecuted and marginalised they would be more sympathetic (as the other poster said, of course this is in no means all gay people, obviously, I have lots of gay friends who are not like this at all)

I’ve noticed close friends of mine who are gay and used to be very vocal about women’s rights are now silent on it and instead have switched to being really loud about trans rights.

 

[emmer_moans]

There are many surrogacy babies, all kept in the same room, in Russia and Ukraine waiting to be picked up. And the women in Ukraine who carry these babies get paid an absolute pittance.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...f-kyiv-and-the-women-who-give-birth-for-money

And don’t forget baby Gammy. A twin left behind in Thailand by his parents because he has downs. The parents took the sister back though.

I worry about the more vulnerable women who are already abused by partners, friends and family one day being manipulated into surrogacy to appease family members who want kids, friends etc... You can imagine the guilt trips and entitlement now. It's a paradox for women. We are hated for being childless by some in society ("clock's ticking, make me a grandparent please") yet we take most of the contraceptive burden because employers by large are crap when it comes to maternity and parenthood. To then have people eyeing up your womb because you have one and they don't?! We can't bloody win.

Eta: of course truly consensual surrogacy can happen but I can see more women being manipulated into it by expectation.