Gender Discussions #2

[Vee6]

Braving the goblet of fire | Nick Cohen | The Critic Magazine

Nick Cohen salutes J.K. Rowling, whose latest work reflects her burning sense of justice and refusal to take the easy route…

thecritic.co.uk

“The history of using irreversible medical interventions to treat psychological conditions is darker than any crime story, and it is being played out again today. The eugenicists of the early twentieth century advocated the sterilising of what they called the “feeble-minded”, a capacious term that would include what we now call people with mental disabilities, so that they could not breed and produce more “undesirables”. Women were the eugenicists’ favoured target.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Yes, the MAP lot supporting trans rights is worrying, for two reasons:

1) If it's found that a child can give legal consent to puberty blockers against their parents' wishes, then that opens the door for them to argue that a child can consent to a relationship

2) Putting kids on puberty blockers until they're allowed to start cross-sex hormones at 18 leaves a gap where you have individuals who have reached the legal age of consent for sex at 16, but still have a pre-pubescent body

Number 2 is a huge concern to me, obviously number 1 is too. It’s not normal to have a bunch of 18 year olds walking around with prepubescent bodies and im surprised this isn’t more of a talking point. It seems to have gone over most people’s heads??? Usually if someone gets to that age and still hasn’t hit puberty there would be medical intervention, but here we are.

 

[Vee6]

I was always taught that when you go through puberty your brain Is re written and you change so much - hence the mood swings, typical teenage behaviour (this is all very broad I know). If that process is not happening, then what is happening to their brains, surely they aren’t developing as they should as well as their bodies

 

[Pambo]

I'm absolutely not comparing them to trans people in any way shape or form, but I wouldn't be surprised if down the road these same woke people find a way to justify rights for pedophiles (or MAPs - "minor attracted people" as they call themselves) into the LGBTQAAI+++++++ community

I remember 'Drag Kid Desmond' being celebrated by the LGBT community a couple years ago. Here's a 10yo old boy, dressed up like an extra from the Blue Oyster Bar, twerking for money from gay men... in the middle of the street on a Gay Pride Parade. That right there, is where I part company from supporting LGBT rights, if one of the rights you want is to stuff money in the pants of a 10yo, stripped to the waist, dancing provocatively, that is. If that was a girl of the same age doing it for straight men, every single man would be arrested, along with the parents. I'm not understanding how it not only gets a pass for the LGBT community, but is celebrated?

But that recent furore over Netflix's 'Cuties' put me in mind of this. That's ten years ago now and still up, and worse that's all the moms cheering and going wild. Again, if that were men behind that, that'd put their daughters out on stage to do that, and men in the audience whooping & hollering, every one of them would've been arrested. What in hell the mothers of those kids are thinking to support that, I do not know.

We are officially living in clown world, and if we don't push back against it, it's only going to get worse.

 

[maytoseptember]

Benjamin Cohen talking about his “right” to have a baby.

YOU DON’T HAVE THE RIGHT TO RENT A WOMAN’S BODY, BENJAMIN.

Incidentally, Mumsnet deleted not one but two threads about Benjamin Cohen and surrogacy on their Feminism board. Apparently they considered it wrong to discussion surrogacy in the context of one individual... despite the fact that his tweets were out there in the public domain and being debated widely.

THEN I realised they deleted those threads because he boo-hooed about them on Twitter. And they capitulated. duck this tit.

I was always taught that when you go through puberty your brain Is re written and you change so much - hence the mood swings, typical teenage behaviour (this is all very broad I know). If that process is not happening, then what is happening to their brains, surely they aren’t developing as they should as well as their bodies

This is true. Kids on puberty blockers not only lose IQ points but seem stuck in a childlike mindset. Look at Jazz Jennings. Puberty isn’t just about developing an adult body, it develops the adult brain.

 

[rosemarina]

duck that guy.

 

[judgejohndeed]

Benjamin Cohen talking about his “right” to have a baby.

YOU DON’T HAVE THE RIGHT TO RENT A WOMAN’S BODY, BENJAMIN.

Incidentally, Mumsnet deleted not one but two threads about Benjamin Cohen and surrogacy on their Feminism board. Apparently they considered it wrong to discussion surrogacy in the context of one individual... despite the fact that his tweets were out there in the public domain and being debated widely.

THEN I realised they deleted those threads because he boo-hooed about them on Twitter. And they capitulated. duck this tit.

If he’s not happy for people to talk about his private business in public maybe he should stop talking about his private business in public Clearly only ok with it when people agree with him, poor baby. How fragile the male ego can be, the mind boggles.

 

[Vee6]

He’s trolling! And he is reacting to Caroline Farrow who he hates who wrote something about surrogacy a few hours before he started tweeted about his demands.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

duck that guy.

And duck mumsnet too. I recently joined Ovarit and it’s great, no censoring women.

 

[Vee6]

What’s that?

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

What’s that?

It’s a forum that was created not long after the Gender Critical subreddit got shut down. It’s invite only at the moment but you can pm them on twitter or spinster to get a code to join, you can view threads etc without joining.

 

[svdwoodsen]

One of the members of my extended family, who resides in Scandinavia, is gay and married to a man and they decided they wanted biological children a few years ago. They found a surrogate in India because it was cheap and legal there. They used eggs from Denmark so now they have these two very blonde, blue-eyed children who were actually carried by an Indian woman and born in India. They're very young and don't quite understand the details of what happened there, but as a woman, I would feel very weird about carrying multiple babies and never seeing them again, and they're also not raising the children to know anything about India or Indian culture (I understand the babies are for all intents and purposes genetically Scandinavian) and all that just feels wrong to me.

Also I can't help but feel it is exploitation, because obviously if it was viable to have a local surrogate, they would've opted for that but they instead went for what they called a "cost-effective" option. It just makes women, especially those from disadvantaged countries, sound like human incubators to be taken advantage of.

 

[Vee6]

Omg that’s so selfish. And they will have to answer to those kids about it one day. Imagine what twins would do to your body... for a stranger

 

[emm]

One of the members of my extended family, who resides in Scandinavia, is gay and married to a man and they decided they wanted biological children a few years ago. They found a surrogate in India because it was cheap and legal there. They used eggs from Denmark so now they have these two very blonde, blue-eyed children who were actually carried by an Indian woman and born in India. They're very young and don't quite understand the details of what happened there, but as a woman, I would feel very weird about carrying multiple babies and never seeing them again, and they're also not raising the children to know anything about India or Indian culture (I understand the babies are for all intents and purposes genetically Scandinavian) and all that just feels wrong to me.

Also I can't help but feel it is exploitation, because obviously if it was viable to have a local surrogate, they would've opted for that but they instead went for what they called a "cost-effective" option. It just makes women, especially those form disadvantaged countries, sound like human incubators to be taken advantage of.

I think ethically it is awful to use a (i imagine poor) surrogate in this way, after pregnancy your body can have so many complications which she might not have the money to deal with. I have a friend who is acting as a surrogate for a gay couple who are her friends, I think this is the only ethical way to do it tbh

 

[judgejohndeed]

One of the members of my extended family, who resides in Scandinavia, is gay and married to a man and they decided they wanted biological children a few years ago. They found a surrogate in India because it was cheap and legal there. They used eggs from Denmark so now they have these two very blonde, blue-eyed children who were actually carried by an Indian woman and born in India. They're very young and don't quite understand the details of what happened there, but as a woman, I would feel very weird about carrying multiple babies and never seeing them again, and they're also not raising the children to know anything about India or Indian culture (I understand the babies are for all intents and purposes genetically Scandinavian) and all that just feels wrong to me.

Also I can't help but feel it is exploitation, because obviously if it was viable to have a local surrogate, they would've opted for that but they instead went for what they called a "cost-effective" option. It just makes women, especially those form disadvantaged countries, sound like human incubators to be taken advantage of.

India is really terrible for surrogacy - I remember when I studied family law (several years ago now) there were cases of the surrogate dying in birth, or disappearing after the event and never being seen again, it’s horrific

 

[svdwoodsen]

I think ethically it is awful to use a (i imagine poor) surrogate in this way, after pregnancy your body can have so many complications which she might not have the money to deal with. I have a friend who is acting as a surrogate for a gay couple who are her friends, I think this is the only ethical way to do it tbh

I agree! I understand that they are paying her for this (and she presumably has also agreed to it) but it just feels like exploitation. As people have said, pregnancy, especially twins, can be traumatic on your body and it feels wrong that they are going into the developing world to do this just because they can afford it. It just seriously rubs me the wrong way from both a feminist and humanitarian perspective.

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

How much are Indian women generally paid to be a surrogate? I can’t imagine it would be a lot if it’s the more ‘cost effective’ option. Ugh just typing that in this context feels wrong. It’s exploitation pure and simple. Women’s bodies are not for sale.

 

[Vee6]

My children are ivf babies, so I really do understand the longing for a child, I heard every insensitive comment going. But at the end of the day if you can’t carry a child for whatever reason or are both male then it involves a massive ask for someone else. And surrogacy is always open for exploitation. But money talks.

 

[Falkor]

This is true. Kids on puberty blockers not only lose IQ points but seem stuck in a childlike mindset. Look at Jazz Jennings. Puberty isn’t just about developing an adult body, it develops the adult brain.

Skeletal development as well - puberty is the signal for the body to get ready to close up the growth plates.

With dogs the advice to spay or neuter at six months old is now slowly being changed, because stopping them going through puberty was leading to an increase in joint problems in the adult animals. I'm wondering if we'll see similar joint problems in children who don't go through puberty as they become adults.

 

[svdwoodsen]

How much are Indian women generally paid to be a surrogate? I can’t imagine it would be a lot if it’s the more ‘cost effective’ option. Ugh just typing that in this context feels wrong. It’s exploitation pure and simple. Women’s bodies are not for sale.

My understanding is that it's one of the cheapest globally along with Ukraine, although I think the government recently passed some laws restricting this so a lot of the demand is flooding into eastern Europe. Apparently it was very popular in Southeast Asia at one point as well (Thailand, Nepal, etc.) but they seem to have really cracked down on it. I think they said it was around USD 20-30k per baby (this was quite a few years ago)? And a fraction of that goes to the surrogate. By contrast, it's about USD 100-150k per child here and isn't even legal in many states.

Surrogacy is not legal where my extended family member is from/lives - they basically have to find someone who is willing to carry their baby and give it up for adoption without a fee. As I've said multiple times above...exploiting the less privleged because they can't do it at home.