Gender Discussion #9

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The Jess DeWahls row is still ongoing. The RAA have been bombarded with comments ,similar to those we had here, about how problematic some of their other artists are. And there is an article in the Times about them potentially breaching the equality act

I have linked it but it is behind a paywall ☹

 
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The Jess DeWahls row is still ongoing. The RAA have been bombarded with comments ,similar to those we had here, about how problematic some of their other artists are. And there is an article in the Times about them potentially breaching the equality act

I have linked it but it is behind a paywall ☹

Great to hear this is getting coverage. That Jess de Wahls, a les who grew up in East Germany has become an enemy of the left/the woke is so telling. Purity spirals here we come.
 
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Someone said on Twitter that, if all it takes is eight people to accuse an artist of transphobia, all we need to do is allege that every artist featured in the RA shop is a transphobe. Then they won’t be able to sell anything 🤷‍♀️
 
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I think what happened to Jess was awful. Especially given the context of all the appalling male artists throughout history who get a free pass in that museum and all of the women artists who won't get an exhibition or even a piece ever displayed there or sold there. However - I really really don't want to be aligned with The Times or The Telegraph or the Spectator or GB News and I didn't know anything about Liz Truss but I've looked at her voting record and I don't care for her politics either.

I do strongly believe in trans rights, I have trans family members and acquaintances. They just want to get on with their lives. I also believe in women's rights and agree with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie that transwomen are transwomen and I don't understand why that's a problem. It's a fact. I wouldn't call myself gender critical per se but I see things that go on in the news or are mentioned here or that happen in the schools where my friends teach that genuinely shock me. I had a senior ex-colleague who was an awful bully about maternity/family stuff to all the women on his team - most of whom ended up quitting as he would do stuff like not let a single mum leave early when her childminder was sick - is now apparently a transwoman and a champion of diversity and women's rights in the workplace. My 10 year old niece has a shaved head and plays on the school football team but doesn't dare tell her friends she likes Harry Potter because of JK Rowling. The racist antisemite Roald Dahl is totally fine though...

I'm sick of women taking the flak for it all. This idea of 'TERFs' - the evil radical feminists who say mean things online are the worst of the worst not the men who repeatedly perpetrate ACTUAL violence. Where is the call for men to be more accepting of gender non-conforming men in their spaces? Why aren't we on at them 'hey we'd like it if you could see a man in a dress and some make-up and manage not to hit or threaten them if that's works please?' Why don't boys schools change their uniform to include dresses and skirts? Why don't they have an acronym? Who's making rubbish embroideries and pin badges about them? I'm sure most of the men who harass or threaten trans people don't consider themselves feminists.

Sorry it's a bit of a rant but I really hate the Tories and I am fed up of only hearing about it from the right.
 
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I get that @Eurgh but the reality is there’s little hope of more left wing press reporting the stories at the moment.
I’m glad that at least some mainstream press is giving Gender Critical perspectives a voice and hope in the future The Guardian et al feel brave enough to (though at the moment that feels like a pipe dream!)

Personally, while I’m angry at the right in politics and media I am also angry at the left. Starmer’s pride video was very disappointing (and the Labour Party as a whole has treated GC feminists appallingly in recent years) and the Guardian’s refusal to report anything to do with Tavistock is pretty tit.

Great to hear this is getting coverage. That Jess de Wahls, a les who grew up in East Germany has become an enemy of the left/the woke is so telling. Purity spirals here we come.
I agree, though wanted to note Jess isn’t a les (it mentions in one of the Times articles she is straight).
 
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I get that @Eurgh but the reality is there’s little hope of more left wing press reporting the stories at the moment.
I’m glad that at least some mainstream press is giving Gender Critical perspectives a voice and hope in the future The Guardian et al feel brave enough to (though at the moment that feels like a pipe dream!)
Let us not forget how The Guardian treated Suzanne Moore - https://unherd.com/2020/11/why-i-had-to-leave-the-guardian/
 
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Ugh Stonewall just never stop
Oh no....this is the kind of crazy thinking that leads straight into bullying. (bullying because of children picking on each other for differences....boys teasing girls etc

Im thinking of how currently a lot of schools let year 6 girls change separately to year 6 boys. At primary school most children just change for PE in the classrooms, But its become standard to let the girls go and change in a side room or in the toilets, partly because of the body changes they are starting to show because of puberty.

How on earth does this match up with the stonewall report?
 
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I think what happened to Jess was awful. Especially given the context of all the appalling male artists throughout history who get a free pass in that museum and all of the women artists who won't get an exhibition or even a piece ever displayed there or sold there. However - I really really don't want to be aligned with The Times or The Telegraph or the Spectator or GB News and I didn't know anything about Liz Truss but I've looked at her voting record and I don't care for her politics either.

I do strongly believe in trans rights, I have trans family members and acquaintances. They just want to get on with their lives. I also believe in women's rights and agree with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie that transwomen are transwomen and I don't understand why that's a problem. It's a fact. I wouldn't call myself gender critical per se but I see things that go on in the news or are mentioned here or that happen in the schools where my friends teach that genuinely shock me. I had a senior ex-colleague who was an awful bully about maternity/family stuff to all the women on his team - most of whom ended up quitting as he would do stuff like not let a single mum leave early when her childminder was sick - is now apparently a transwoman and a champion of diversity and women's rights in the workplace. My 10 year old niece has a shaved head and plays on the school football team but doesn't dare tell her friends she likes Harry Potter because of JK Rowling. The racist antisemite Roald Dahl is totally fine though...

I'm sick of women taking the flak for it all. This idea of 'TERFs' - the evil radical feminists who say mean things online are the worst of the worst not the men who repeatedly perpetrate ACTUAL violence. Where is the call for men to be more accepting of gender non-conforming men in their spaces? Why aren't we on at them 'hey we'd like it if you could see a man in a dress and some make-up and manage not to hit or threaten them if that's works please?' Why don't boys schools change their uniform to include dresses and skirts? Why don't they have an acronym? Who's making rubbish embroideries and pin badges about them? I'm sure most of the men who harass or threaten trans people don't consider themselves feminists.

Sorry it's a bit of a rant but I really hate the Tories and I am fed up of only hearing about it from the right.
Thank you @Eurgh

I also dislike that people like us who feel this way on this particular subject get lumped in with the likes of GB News, Laurence Fox etc. I consider myself politically homeless at the moment too.
 
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I’m seeing more and more people coming out in support of Jess de Wahls.



Of course the first reply is a man saying “I’d imagine they are though?”

What a thoroughly knobbish response.

Anyway, Jess seems to be inundated with support, which is so great to see.
 
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The only thing I don't like about all this is that Stonewall's attitude to the 'T' side of LGBT is now the sole focus. So many people want to get rid of it for that and, while I understand their views, it's a shame that their good work for the L, G and B sides is being forgotten or ignored.

I'm gay and, trust me, homophobia isn't consigned to the past. Things are a lot better than they were, but things are far from ideal. That's why it distresses me that lots of people are trying to get rid of the whole of Stonewall.
 
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The only thing I don't like about all this is that Stonewall's attitude to the 'T' side of LGBT is now the sole focus. So many people want to get rid of it for that and, while I understand their views, it's a shame that their good word for the L, G and B sides is being forgotten or ignored.

I'm gay and, trust me, homophobia isn't consigned to the past. Things are a lot better than they were, but things are far from ideal. That's why it distresses me that lots of people are trying to get rid of the whole of Stonewall.
That’s exactly what Simon Fanshawe (one of the founders) has been saying.

I think Stonewall is finished. It can never go back to its original ethos. Would be great if something like the LGB Alliance could get a decent platform and continue the work that Stonewall seems to have abandoned.
 
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I’m seeing more and more people coming out in support of Jess de Wahls.



Of course the first reply is a man saying “I’d imagine they are though?”

What a thoroughly knobbish response.

Anyway, Jess seems to be inundated with support, which is so great to see.
Maybe all these companies cancelling on the say so of a few gobby tweeters will finally realise that twitter and the real world are not comparable.
 
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Has anyone else never heard of Jess de Wahls? I think that's part of the issue with social media, making small issues about little known people into massive things.
 
I think what happened to Jess was awful. Especially given the context of all the appalling male artists throughout history who get a free pass in that museum and all of the women artists who won't get an exhibition or even a piece ever displayed there or sold there. However - I really really don't want to be aligned with The Times or The Telegraph or the Spectator or GB News and I didn't know anything about Liz Truss but I've looked at her voting record and I don't care for her politics either.

I do strongly believe in trans rights, I have trans family members and acquaintances. They just want to get on with their lives. I also believe in women's rights and agree with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie that transwomen are transwomen and I don't understand why that's a problem. It's a fact. I wouldn't call myself gender critical per se but I see things that go on in the news or are mentioned here or that happen in the schools where my friends teach that genuinely shock me. I had a senior ex-colleague who was an awful bully about maternity/family stuff to all the women on his team - most of whom ended up quitting as he would do stuff like not let a single mum leave early when her childminder was sick - is now apparently a transwoman and a champion of diversity and women's rights in the workplace. My 10 year old niece has a shaved head and plays on the school football team but doesn't dare tell her friends she likes Harry Potter because of JK Rowling. The racist antisemite Roald Dahl is totally fine though...

I'm sick of women taking the flak for it all. This idea of 'TERFs' - the evil radical feminists who say mean things online are the worst of the worst not the men who repeatedly perpetrate ACTUAL violence. Where is the call for men to be more accepting of gender non-conforming men in their spaces? Why aren't we on at them 'hey we'd like it if you could see a man in a dress and some make-up and manage not to hit or threaten them if that's works please?' Why don't boys schools change their uniform to include dresses and skirts? Why don't they have an acronym? Who's making rubbish embroideries and pin badges about them? I'm sure most of the men who harass or threaten trans people don't consider themselves feminists.

Sorry it's a bit of a rant but I really hate the Tories and I am fed up of only hearing about it from the right.
Not a rant at all, love this so much and nodded all the way along. It sounds as if we have v similar politics and I feel SO guilty for not agreeing with people I usually agree with on this. I’m all for grown adults transitioning (and hope they get decent treatment that considers MH conditions / traumas that could influence someone - as I would if a woman wanted a boob job or other equally permanent life change!) and will respect pronouns, but I’m uncomfortable about how things are moving and even more uncomfortable that none of us are allowed to discuss it, as you’ve said, without being accused of being some sort of right wing hateful troll. It’s scary.
 
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