Gender Discussion #9

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

@Blaggings I can only speak for myself, but what I find most egregious about the trans rights movement (as represented by Stonewall, Pink News, etc.) is that is so inconsistent and illogical.

I don't have an issue with trans people, but as others have said, the definition of trans people is now effectively meaningless. Some examples of inconsistencies/lack of critical thinking.

Transwomen are women.
This statement is patently false. Transwomen are transwomen. They are biologically male, but have chosen to make changes to their bodies and they way they dress, speak, their names, etc. In a free society, anyone has the right to do that. I absolutely do not want to legislate what people can wear, what they want to call themselves, etc. However, sex-segregated spaces are based on the material reality of sex, so if you say transwomen are women, sex-segregated spaces become meaningless. I want all people to be safe from harm and have access to the services they need. I don't want this to happen at the expense of women. We can find other solutions and some things can be decided on a case to case basis.

Trans rights are equivalent to gay rights.
I think the two are completely different. Someone's sexual orientation is fundamentally part of who they are. It cannot be changed. It makes no difference how old you are, whether you are celibate, single or in a relationship. Your sexuality doesn't change. There's nothing a straight, gay or bi person has to do to be straight, gay or bi. We just are who we are. No one is just trans. You become trans, by transitioning. The clue is in the name. Transitioning is the treatment for people who have gender dysphoria. It is a fairly extreme treatment for what can be a very serious mental health condition. Those suffering from that condition deserve access to good treatment. They deserve not to be discriminated against because of their condition. Trans rights are much more in line with rights for people with medical conditions. We all deserve access to suitable treatment, to be treated fairly at work, to not be harrassed, etc.

It is brave to come out as trans. Everyone who says they are trans should be affirmed and have access to surgery and hormone treatment.
This is one that completely baffles me. Many parents who would be shocked at their daughter saying 'I don't feel good in my body, I want breast augmentation and lip injections' claim to be fine with their daughter saying 'I don't feel good in my body. I'm a boy. I need a double mascectomy and lifelong hormone treatment.' To me, either both positions are equally valid, or both need to be questioned. See also people like Oprah Winfrey applauding pictures of Elliot Page post surgery. Would she have done it if EP had got a massive boob job, butt implants and had posed in a tiny bikini? I don't think so. The hypocracy drives me nuts.

Deadnaming is literal violence.
First of all, it isn't. Violence is something else. Secondly, this whole deadnaming movement has gone completely nuts. I listened to a podcast about the Kardashians a while ago. It talked about how Kris met Caitlyn, how Kris and Caitlyn got married, had kids together, etc. That's just rewriting history. If you didn't know who Caitlyn Jenner was, you'd wonder when gay marriage became legal in California, who the birth mother was, when Kris realised she was bisexual, etc. It's just a small example, but you cannot rewrite history. Calling people who have changed their name for whatever reason by their old name to their face is an asshole move. Rewriting history by pretending that the history of the trans person as a man or woman before transition didn't exist is a lie, confusing and hurtful to their families and friends. I have a lesbian friend whose partner transitioned, effectively putting my friend back in the closet. It was hurtful to her. But she can't say so publicly, because that would make her a transphobe.

Citing Iran/Innuit people/Joan of Arc/Yentl as trans heroes
This one is a big one on social media. The lack of critical thinking is painful. Iran is particularly offensive, but rewriting history by claiming that women who dressed as men were trans also pisses me off. I can't be bothered to type out why, but I can only hope that some of the kids wrapped up in this cult travel the world and pick up a few history books at some point.

In conclusion, I'm worried about women's rights, I'm worried about putting young people on a needless path of endless medication and I'm most worried about how idiotic the entire movement is.

 

[MaineCoonMama]

There was a discussion on the last thread re: mixed gender wards in hospitals. This actually happens where I live and I can tell you it's extremely uncomfortable. I was recovering from a hysterectomy and the guy in the bed next to mine had hepatitis to the point he looked like an inhabitant of Springfield. He'd picked it up from a sex worker in Thailand and I had to listen to him arguing with his wife the whole 5 days I was in there. Not to mention going to the bathroom in a hospital gown trying to keep it shut at the back whilst steering my drip.

I've just had minor surgery at a different hospital which has women-only wards and I just felt so much more able to relax without being conscious of not having a bra on.

I wouldn't feel comfortable with a man identifying as a woman being in there pre-op either, same goes for prisons etc.

We are different biologically and that's an incontrovertible fact. Our safety and comfort as women is being pushed to the side, like we haven't gone through enough as a biological female anyway.

 

[Aquamarina]

It’s so heartening to see more people coming over to this thread, especially in light of recent events with Stonewall and the ridiculousness of Marion Millar being charged with a ‘hate crime’ after posting an image of suffragette ribbons.

Welcome to any new members of this thread. We are people who are concerned with the erosion of women and girl’s rights and the invasion of male bodied people into our female only spaces as outlined in the Equality Act.
We are not hateful, anti-Semitic or bigoted, as many of these TRAs would have you believe. Neither are we ‘funded by some right-wing evangelical Christian group’, which is another lie they tell. Most of us are ordinary women and men who can see through the misogyny disguised as ‘trans rights.’ We are also very concerned about the medical pathways that vulnerable children are being led down, often by unscrupulous adult groomers on social media sites such as Tik Tok and Instagram.

Most trans identified men are autogynephiles, which means that they derive sexual pleasure from dressing and seeing themselves as women. Many of them seem to derive extreme pleasure from invading women’s spaces and intimidating women in these spaces. There are Twitter accounts (NSFW) that document grim photos and videos of what these men get up to in women’s spaces. Some of these men absolutely hate women, as they know they can never be like us and they use this hatred to threaten, doxx and throw slurs such as TERF at us. It’s even more upsetting that there are women who have been brainwashed by this nonsense too, but little by little it seems that more people are ‘peaking.’

The more we speak up and out, the more people will realise just how insidious this trans movement is and how detrimental it is for so many people, least not biological women. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

 

[2020two]

I fucking despair honestly. My rape at a university party when I was 18 years old had FIVE witnesses. It never reached the court room. The detective blamed my drinking and told me to let it go.

But woah tweet a suffragette ribbon online and the police will come and get you! Do people actually just hate women? Is that what this is?

 

[heretoreaditall2019]

Is this the Deutsche employee or is there another one.

I’m not sure what this thread is like but as a “woman in tech” definitely am scared to say anything about certain things

I read the thread whilst up last night so feel comfortable saying this now - not my intention to offend but this is something you just cannot speak about IRL and would love anyone’s thoughts on, expecting disagreements too -

Women in tech are a minority & it’s incredibly rare to find anyone with any seniority really as the opportunities just weren’t there back in the 90s/early 00s for them to establish themselves and become CIOs/CPOs/CDOs or heads of development etc in current day. I’ve got a name like “Stephanie” which could be read as “Stephan” and when introed over email it’s always assumed I’m the latter, for example because we are still so rare especially at mildly senior levels (eg a head of a smaller sub function). Anyway onto the point -

Something I’ve noticed a lot is at panel events when there’s a female speaker or those top X lists (which are problematic for other reasons) I’ve started to notice the only women I see are older trans women who’ve only recently (under 5 years) became female presenting. So that means 10,20,30 years of their career was lived out as a male presenting person gaining all the benefits that gives them? And I know the trans lobby will deny that confers any advantages as they “were always female” but I’m sorry, no everyone thought they were a bloke so they weren’t being approached being asked “COO told me to speak to you about X, who can help me” (well, me hun x) or asking IT for access rights and being patronised like you’re a moron who is a danger getting access. They benefitted from an in earlier and years of mentorship from their male peers and seniors, it’s very hard to establish those relationships as a woman and I had two in my last role I clinged to as I had *never* had it before in a decade of working.

I feel awful but I really don’t want to hear about being a woman in tech by someone who got to an incredibly senior level then became a woman and the trans thing is utterly undiscussable with anyone IRL. I feel like their personhood is more respected because it’s such a hot issue with D&I and no one dares question anything. I also feel terrible that I don’t necessarily want to listen to their account of being a woman in X because they haven’t had the lived experience. It feels more like an LGBT inclusion point than a gender diversity / representation point?

I also feel like tech really over indexes in the number of trans women I see and I do wonder if Reddit / Twitter / the internet discourse these people will have been part of for years has something to play in that.

I’m writing this feeling terrible, I’ve never said any of this out loud before

 

[Flumps]

<deep breath>

Hi. It is deeply worrying to me how nervous I am about posting on this thread (not because of you lot) because nailing any sort of colour, however nuanced, to this mast seems so fraught and almost a dangerous thing to do.

I have sat with my feelings about modern feminism for a long time and tried really hard to work out if I am just old and reactionary but I don’t think that’s the case.

@heretoreaditall2019 has brought me out of hiding as I have a lot of the same questions about how someone who has worked in tech for 20 years as a man can speak on ‘women in tech’ with any authority, no matter how they present now.

I have concerns about fairness in sport and vast concern about the erosion of safe spaces for women - I see no massive societal shift that means they are no longer required.

I worry so much about young people who aren’t happy with their bodies identifying as trans. I spent 2+ years of my childhood telling everyone who would listen that I was a boy (named Jack - enjoy the irony some of you), I think due to abuse as a younger girl and a need to try and find a way to be safe. Also massively preferred ‘traditionally boy’ games so that was prob a factor. I wonder what would have happened to me in these times because I was adamant on this point for a long time.

And a petty personal issue. I hate the ‘people with cervices’ smear thing. I don’t have a cervix as such (due to cervical cancer) but I do need regular smears (much more regular) because I’m obviously at risk of recurrence. There are still cells at the site that are cervical cells (interesting fact - cells migrate out of the vagina and turn into cervical cells, like they are trying to rebuild! Not a scientist so that may be slightly inaccurate!) So the category doesn’t fit me, but it would be extremely risky for me to not bother with smears.

I don’t want to cause anyone distress in their life, and will happily call anyone anything they wish to be called and use any pronoun they choose to employ but I worry about the long term societal and personal consequences of a lot of things. I don’t think I am trash, or unkind, or hateful but a lot of people who I like and respect seem to think that I am for thinking these things and that’s very tough.

I would talk about the fat acceptance/body positive movement too, but there’s only so much controversial stuff I can say in one post.

 

[AnderbeauJohnson]

Never

View attachment 613890

Okay, I'll play along. How many transwomen are murdered within a week of being born because their parents wanted a son? How many transwomen die in menstruation huts? How many transwomen are impregnated through rape being used as a weapon of war/genocide? How many transwomen die in childbirth because of either inadequate access to medical care or because they're married and forced to get pregnant when they're 10-12 years old? How many transwomen undergo FGM?

okay, I'll stop editing now - this has got me really het up.

 

[maytoseptember]

A media woke bloke tried to call out Jonathan Ross and instigate a pile on.

It didn’t go well.

 

[SqualorVictoria]

I'd like to make kink shaming great again. I'm sorry but if anyone is into cannibalism even as a fantasy they're a deviant and a sick pervert. No ifs or buts

 

[jewelkitty]

To brighten your days a bit

 

[Eurgh]

I think what happened to Jess was awful. Especially given the context of all the appalling male artists throughout history who get a free pass in that museum and all of the women artists who won't get an exhibition or even a piece ever displayed there or sold there. However - I really really don't want to be aligned with The Times or The Telegraph or the Spectator or GB News and I didn't know anything about Liz Truss but I've looked at her voting record and I don't care for her politics either.

I do strongly believe in trans rights, I have trans family members and acquaintances. They just want to get on with their lives. I also believe in women's rights and agree with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie that transwomen are transwomen and I don't understand why that's a problem. It's a fact. I wouldn't call myself gender critical per se but I see things that go on in the news or are mentioned here or that happen in the schools where my friends teach that genuinely shock me. I had a senior ex-colleague who was an awful bully about maternity/family stuff to all the women on his team - most of whom ended up quitting as he would do stuff like not let a single mum leave early when her childminder was sick - is now apparently a transwoman and a champion of diversity and women's rights in the workplace. My 10 year old niece has a shaved head and plays on the school football team but doesn't dare tell her friends she likes Harry Potter because of JK Rowling. The racist antisemite Roald Dahl is totally fine though...

I'm sick of women taking the flak for it all. This idea of 'TERFs' - the evil radical feminists who say mean things online are the worst of the worst not the men who repeatedly perpetrate ACTUAL violence. Where is the call for men to be more accepting of gender non-conforming men in their spaces? Why aren't we on at them 'hey we'd like it if you could see a man in a dress and some make-up and manage not to hit or threaten them if that's works please?' Why don't boys schools change their uniform to include dresses and skirts? Why don't they have an acronym? Who's making rubbish embroideries and pin badges about them? I'm sure most of the men who harass or threaten trans people don't consider themselves feminists.

Sorry it's a bit of a rant but I really hate the Tories and I am fed up of only hearing about it from the right.

 

[sheleg]

For FUCK'S SAKE.

It is WOMEN who get pregnant and give birth. WOMEN who are physically disadvantaged by our capacity to bear children. WOMEN who go through abortions, miscarriages, relinquishing babies, genital mutilation, rape, forced marriage.

WOMEN.

 

[AnderbeauJohnson]

Maya Forstater judgement due at 10.30am today. Crossing everything (and annoyingly I'm due somewhere then, so won't see it for at least an hour!)

edit - and from the woman herself

 

[AlanBanan]

I love the retort of saying “Well your toilet at home is a gender neutral toilet” well yeah, but I choose who I let into my home and a strange man in a dress doesn’t be sitting on the side of the bath while I’m having a shite, mate.

 

[bethannebodyworks]

BECAUSE HE'S A FUCKING DUDE WITH A FETISH AND/OR A MENTAL DISORDER.

I can't even sugarcoat this anymore. I used to be very supportive of trans rights. I've peaked. Fully. lol*

*I definitely don't want to strip anyone's human rights away. Trans people are still people; but I refuse to go along with the delusion of this kind of trans person. If you are trans and just live your life normally without stepping on women's toes, we're cool. If not, ugh.

 

[heretoreaditall2019]

Just had this post from GCHQ pop up on Instagram as ad! Why are they paying for this to be promoted? And look at the emoji with exaggerated mascara and lipstick (in case we didn’t know what a woman looks like, obviously, I suppose…)



And the hashtags used in the comments… family goals?

View attachment 619815

Idk if it’s a good idea for me to continue reading this thread tbh this has actually quite upset me. I’m a newish mum and my career ~in tech~ was obliterated by my pregnancy, I had to go to therapy for self esteem and I simply have none left now to the point where I’m too shy to send emails without my husband proof reading them first (even tho his writing is objectively poorer than mine?). I’m too scared to take legal action as it’s a huge company and I don’t have it in me to endure years of shit, I can’t even bear to read the results of any SAR I could put in it would absolutely crush me. My husband’s career is obviously absolutely fine. He would have been able to withstand the mental torture my workplace put on me for daring to get pregnant too, but it was me who had to go through it. I can’t imagine having the privilege of being the non birthing parent then turning round and claiming mother status.

ETA - like am I insane? Am I going down the path incels or red pillers go down? Like one big knock to your self confidence and you become a hateful piece of shit? Like surely this is objectively insanity??

 

[emmer_moans]

If only the same efforts would be taken to recruit more POC, disabled people, etc etc. It does seem like literally everything has to be about transgender people these days, it’s overpowering and probably turns a lot of people off

Precisely. Disabled people are almost completely forgotten these days by businesses it seems I know a lady who uses a powerchair and she has to book assistance ahead of time at train stations and many times gets there to find there is no ramp, or the train stock is not accessible, yet the other week on Twitter a certain train company was falling over themselves when a non-binary person objected to an announcement of "ladies and gentlemen". It must be hard for her and many others to see companies rolling around in trans flags and changing their avatars and banners, yet instead they still can't get basic assistance provided in a consistent manner. Companies are hyperfocussed on TRA pandering than actually providing an accessible service.

 

[holliebollie]

I like the fact that more people are joining this thread and see for themselves it’s not an evil, transphobic place. It’s just women who are concerned that our rights, language and safety are in rocky waters right now due to extreme TRAs/organisations and their widening influence. It used to make me feel bad when I’d see people on the JM thread saying how awful this thread was and I thought, if it is, what does it make me?

My daughter rang me today asking to come home from school due to needing the toilet with an upset stomach. She won’t go now because they’ve ripped down single sex bathrooms and made cubicles IN THE CORRIDOR. I wouldn’t go for a number 2 either. I am planning to email the school to ask about the lack of dedicated single sex toilets or at least access to one that’s more private and NOT in a corridor for such times. Imagine being a teenage girl with an upset stomach having to effectively go in a corridor. Or not even toilet related, changing pads and tampons etc, it’s just not fair.

This is what I am concerned about. I really don’t care if someone (what we would see as an ‘old school’ transsexual) has hormonal and surgical treatment (this is key, not just dressing in a wig, heels and dress) and lives as the opposite sex. If it has no effect on me and women in general, I wish them luck and happiness. I don’t think anyone on this thread would oppose that, although we might ask why that person feels they are the opposite sex in the first place if it’s not based on gender stereotypes.

What we DO oppose is men, who are a real and undeniable danger to women, use this new, huge trans umbrella to access safe spaces, our sports, and use their influence AS MEN to stop us using words such as woman and mother. I don’t want to add pronouns to my name after I meet someone, nor do I want to use them on my work email or Zoom account. That’s not being transphobic.

Being gender critical means you understand that men and women cannot change sex. It means you don’t believe that ‘gender’ is anything more than a set of stereotypes artificially connected to the two sexes. We need to get away from stereotypes from childhood if we are to have adults who don’t say- “I was born male but I’m actually a woman because I *insert every stereotype going*...”

 

[Bitofthebubbly]

Slightly OT from what’s being discussed but I feel like this thread has become sort of a safe space to discuss anything feminism (but not that wishy washy kind). I don’t know if anyone else has noticed this lately but I’m so fed up of reading article after article about secondary schools demonising girls uniforms and making out that wearing a skirt is ‘too distracting’ for all the males in the building. Get a bloody grip. Any teacher that is ‘distracted’ by the length of a teenage girls skirt needs sacking and reporting immediately and any boys who can’t control themselves around the female sex need to be put in isolation until they learn basic respect for others.

This has nothing to do with ‘appropriate dress code’ imo, girls have been rolling their school skirts up for literally decades, it’s like how boys often made their ties really short and stubby. It’s just kids pushing boundaries and learning where the line is. Why all of a sudden is the news flooded with articles like this calling for skirts to be banned??? At one point all girls could wear to school was a skirt and now they want to ban them ffs. Leave girls alone. Teach boys not to be pornsick instead. Funnily enough I’m seeing these articles not long after it was revealed that sexual assault is rife in schools, can I smell victim blaming

 

[LaLa247]

I would like to apologise to all the middle age men who tried to chat me up when I was barely 18, I now see how offensive it was I deemed you too old and fat.