Gender Discussion #57

[emmer_moans]

Had a team meeting this week, we were informed that in our upcoming performance review there’s an EDI element, e.g. we have to demonstrate what we have done as part of our role to be more inclusive, and what we intend to do going forward. Examples were: 1 - making more effort to accommodate accessiblity, i.e. when writing emails use concise language, legible fonts and colours (absolutely fine, I’ll choose something on those lines), but then the next example was using gender neutral language in emails, ‘they’ rather than he/she
So my performance review is apparently read by senior leadership teams (I never knew that, I thought it was just between my line manager, me, and HR). This means I have to put some waffle in my personal performance review about what i do to be more inclusive. How about fuck off. I do my job efficiently, productively, competently, am approachable, always the go-to “how do we do this?” person when new people have queries etc, yet now my performance review and possible reward etc is partially dependant on whether I write satisfactory waffle about Beingkind? Just let me come in to do the job I am paid to do. I’m not going to bend over backwards to write ‘they’ instead of he/she. Just no.

 

[weeweegie]

I recently had an ultrasound done on my heart - a man did the scan. I was fine with it - I had to get completely naked from the waist up.

I told my mum and she said she'd be uncomfortable with it. She was attacked when she was younger by a man who went on to murder someone else.

Just because I was fine with it, doesn't mean she should be. Ignorance is bliss - lived experience shapes opinions. If you haven't been attacked or raped, you have no right to speak for the women who have or tell them what they should think.

And I'm really annoyed that I had to look up ovarian cysts today, and the Cleveland Clinic used 'person with ovaries' in their article rather than 'woman'.

This is just it. I’ve said in here before that I always refuse male doctors/nurses when it’s of an intimate nature, even in child birth I refused a male doctor and had to wait for the female doc. I honestly get so upset at the thought of a man ‘down there’ (that isn’t my husband). When I say male doctors I include trans women doctors too. Because they are not women. And that is my right. No one has the right to tell me I’m a bigot for feeling this way. It’s not anti man or anti trans. I have my reasons and they are no one’s business.

Same goes for my mum. She had a breast exam/treatment by a woman recently and during it and while my mums arms were above her head and she was told to stay still, a male nurse wandered in to adjust the machine that was being used and manhandled my mums breasts, without a word to her. She was so upset. There was no consent on my mums part and afterwards when my mum was in tears, the female nurses just repeated that he was just as qualified as them. There doesn’t seem to be any respect for women’s boundaries, privacy and dignity, even from some other women. I was raging. Yet these same women will die on the TWAW hill. It will never, ever make sense to me. @Elle good on you for sticking around here, hopefully some of what we have said has made an impact but I appreciate you desperately want to believe TWAW for reasons you can’t explain and I’m not going to change your mind on that.

 

[blahblahboring]

It kind of boggles my mind that GC people are characterised as ultra right-wing, religious conservatives when it’s been my experience that we are NOT! Most of my GC friends are left-wing atheists (though there are a few from a variety of faiths) with very liberal minded values. I guess it bolsters the TRA narrative if we are seen as small-minded, elitist, racist, homophobic *karens* (I HATE that term).

 

[Mugglewump]

I was involved in a car crash on Sunday, had to speak to countless people on the phone to sort it out.
Anyway some asked my gender, to which I replied my SEX is female, and others asked what I identify as.
Ffs, I told them I don't identify as anything, I simply am a woman.
They probably hate me now.
I hate guys who drive through red lights and hit me.

 

[DoraMaar]

 

[klarakluckbag]

I say this fully aware I'm potentially just being a very ignorant straight person - but I've never understood why who you prefer to shag is a thing that needs to come into work at all?

I have a colleague at work who I only really know through emails. We have met briefly a couple of times (I first met her when she heard me talking to someone in a lift, she recognised my voice, grabbed my name badge, yelled out "it's Klara Kluckbag", and hugged me ) but we work in different locations so don't see each other too often, despite knowing each other for more than a decade. We speak on the phone occasionally, but we mostly correspond by email or Teams. I literally discovered last week that she is gay, only because she mentioned that she is working from home because her wife has Covid. She has no pronouns in her email signature, no rainbow badges on her uniform, no blue or pink hair colour, I had absolutely no idea. She probably has no idea that I'm straight, she probably assumes that I am, but we don't really talk about our sex lives, it's not relevant at work, and at our age, it's nothing to brag about anyway!

 

[Princess She-Ra]

Bloody hell, Edinburgh is completely captured! This morning I popped into a coffee shop and was served by a massive bloke with shoulders like a prop forward but had two butterfly clips in their hair and a big sparkly “she/them” badge. Next on to the cinema and was greeted by a 5ft 2 person in a bright pink top (all other staff were wearing navy) and had a bum fluff beard, tiny hands and feet and a he/him badge.
Firstly, dress how you want but who are they trying to convince with their badges? Themselves? Because it certainly wasn’t anybody else!
And secondly, why do they need to highlight themselves? To feel more special? I would have much more respect if they just got on with their job rather than trying to be “stunning and brave”

 

[Vanelope]

When this ideology hit close to home it hardened my stance against it. A set of parents at my kids school apparently have two kids who identify as trans - what are the odds? One is a they - non binary kid, and one is identifying as the opposite sex to the point where they want a new name. These kids are lower primary age and their parents have turned the school upside down demanding allowances and even sneaking unapproved reading materials in which is confusing our children.

if this was just what they wore or the hobbies they had no bother, but they want new pronouns, there was
confusion around access to girls changing rooms and it was suggested the single sex races at sports day should be scrapped for inclusion. For kindness. Kindness is everything at that age.

you may see all this and wonder what’s the harm? But it was infringing on the rights of girls to privacy and for fairness in sport, at primary age. It was teaching them that it’s ok to lie, or to not trust your own instincts, in order to be kind. Insidious.

 

[Metropolis]

Found on the Saccone Joly thread (they have a son they push as trans, he's only 9.)
Fucking unbelievable, this woman needs a head check.
View attachment 2706066

That’s surely child abuse - basically forcing a child to be trans against their will, especially at 9 when pre-pubescent hormones start to kick in.

 

[klarakluckbag]

The "TWAW" belief is exactly that...a belief. Just like believing in a god, or homeopathy or astrology, I don't pander to it because it's clearly nonsense. To be honest (and probably a bit unkind!) I tend to treat people who believe in religion or astrology like I would a small child, you know their critical thinking skills aren't quite there yet, so you make allowances for their ignorance.
But even very small children know the difference between men and women. My toddler son had a very embarrassing habit of pointing to random men and shouting "Daddy", but he never, ever did this to a woman. To me, it beggars belief that otherwise intelligent adults insist that transwomen are women, when they know, with every fibre of their being, that they absolutely are not! Who are they pandering to? Why are they lying to themselves and to everyone else? Do they not understand how utterly ridiculous they sound? The vast, vast majority of folk do not think that TWAW in any way, shape or form. The ambiguous language the TRA's use is an attempt to make us think that everyone is on board, when they really are not.

I honestly don't give a toss about being impolite to handmaidens, I'm a nice person in real life, but I don't need to justify myself to people who try to tell me that the sky is pink, that Santa is real and that men can be women

 

[MaineCoonMama]

I think LGB talks can be beneficial in a workplace, the last place I worked on my first day a man pointed out another man to me and told me "he's a poof, I had to move lockers in case he has the hots for me." I was disgusted and shocked and not sure what to say. After I'd worked there for a while I ended up reporting other homophobic comments he'd made.
My boss was a lesbian, a co worker had a run in with her and complained to me about her, finishing off with "All she needs is a cock, that would shut her up for a while"
This was only a few years ago, I really think that place would have benefited from some sort of lesson in how to behave in a work situation and to learn not to be such a homophobic cunt.

 

[Scotch Mist]

From what you have said, it sounds like some of you used to be very similar to me (highly trans sympathetic, shall we call it?!). I'm curious as to whether it applies to everyone here that you were once only slightly GC or not at all and then became increasingly GC. Or whether some of you were GC from the very start?

It's interesting because Contrapoints described being GC as being in a whirlpool and once you're in deep you can't get out of it whereas some of you have said it's a case of having your eyes opened and not being able to unsee it.

I've always been a live and let live sort of person and certainly wouldn't try to dictate to anyone else how they should live their lives. If men want to wear dresses and makeup then that's up to them.

What I object to is being compelled to call a man a woman because he says so. I would generally be polite and call someone by whatever name they asked me to call them but I can't be forced to believe that if a man puts a dress on he has magically become a woman because I know that's untrue.

The compelled speech of pronouns and misgendering being made a hate crime is what gets my back up. This has actually made me less tolerant than I used to be.

I also object to young children being told that there are hundreds of genders as if its fact when it really isn't. There's always been a broad spectrum between male and female in terms of how people see themselves but the labelling in the name of inclusivity is giving young children the impression that its easy to change your sex on a whim.

 

[ThisIsMyGuiltyPleasure]

Yes, agreed. Plus more people will listen to him as he's a man.

From the article:-

"He says he realised two things: 'One, there was no actual way I can know what it feels like to be a woman because I'd never been one, so the idea of me saying 'Oh, I feel like a woman' was absurd.

'And the second thing I came to realise was that I didn't actually need to change my outside because of how I felt on the inside. I just needed to come to terms with it.'"

Those two points from the article are what really struck me and they are very important. No one can say they feel they are born into the wrong body because they have no idea what it feels like to be the opposite sex. I think they pay too much attention to stereotypes and don't take into account that absolutely everyone is different. Women don't always have to like pink, boys can play with dolls...it doesn't mean they are born in the wrong body.
The second point, I believe that there are mental health issues always at play and no matter what the surgery it's not going to fix what's going on upstairs. We are expected to accept trans people as "their authentic self" yet they cannot accept themselves as they are.

 

[Metropolis]

I think it’s dangerous for children to be taught that the evidence of their own eyes and ears, and possibly their instincts, may not be correct. How can it be right to correct a child who correctly sexes a person? If children are taught that what they know to be true is a lie, how else might they be fucked up by the adults in their lives? Might they start questioning whether something that feels wrong to them is actually right and therefore not worth raising to someone is supposed to protect them?

 

[Elle]

Maybe I'm being facetious but India says this is her 'first encounter with a terf within the NHS'. No idea how long she's been using the NHS as a trans woman but she says she's been at this GP surgery for 8 years....if you haven't had an encounter with a TERF within the NHS in at least at least 8 years (she will have 'encountered' them just not been aware of it) doesn't that just prove that TERFs aren't out to get you? They're minding their own business not spewing hate at you?

 

[petitspois]

No men in women's spaces - regardless of how they dress, identify or appear. They could be the nicest, most 'genuine' man in a dress in the world but stay in your own lane. Easy. No hand wringing, no discussing if a man who's had his balls cut off can come in, just keep them all out.

 

[Notworthy]

Another here who would have been captured. Snuck off at 11 to get my long blonde hair cut into an absolutely hideous bowl cut, ruined my posture because I crossed my arms over my chest to cover my huge boobs (my nickname was actually Emu on account of my skinny legs and big chest)
apart from talking to your daughters, please get them measured properly for a bra, do not rely on M&S. I can honestly say that when I walked into Allders and got myself properly measured and invested in decent fitting bras it was life changing.
Also if your daughter is sporty, get her a proper sports bra and lastly report any misogynistic behaviour by boys/men to the school. Young Women quit sport at an alarming rate and part of that reason is being made to feel uncomfortable.

 

[Sweetcouchpotato]

Any advice?

My 16yo is being made to feel highly uncomfortable by a trans identified male - I'm not sure if he's a boy or a man. This male keeps sitting next to her in their shared class and she keeps switching to a different table, and he follows. He's now following her when she goes to the loo, literally running after her when she leaves the classroom.

She's come a long way from being a typical brainwashed TRA to gender critical, but she's scared to say anything as her college is sold out 100% to trans. She's tried to talk to her college-based mental health support but he's gay, from the highly pro trans side of the rainbow. I really feel like I need to step in but I'm not sure how best to tackle it.

She's uncomfortable having a male behaving like this and being all giggly and "isn't it typical of us girls having to go to the loo together" etc but I'm thinking it might be best to treat it as though he's another girl harassing her and not bring gender politics into it.

 

[Funny_bunny]

I’m fed up with the argument about GC people denying trans people’s existence. It’s ridiculous, of course they exist, but exist as their biological sex. They don’t fail to exist because we don’t go along with their delusion. Yet, the hypocrisy is that these same people remove the word “woman” because it hurts their feelings and it’s not inclusive.
Life isn’t inclusive! Lots of things aren’t for safety or because it wouldn’t be appropriate. Things have age limits. You wouldn’t let adults into activities for children, or allow children into adult only events and equally biological men do not belong in female only spaces.

 

[PryingPenny]

I think one of the things that helped me change my view on it was seeing trans women celebrated as being brave for nothing more than having some boob implants, hair extensions and make up. Like when Caitlyn Jenner was on the magazine cover. It's all external and superficial, what they are being celebrated for. But actual women are struggling still around the world with so many actual issues. I was born in the 1980s and, the older I get the more I realise , women's rights weren't firmly established much before I was born. That feels terrifying to me, that women couldn't own property, vote, deny their husband sex etc, within decades of me being born.

I have no issue if a man wants to wear a dress or make up, but that doesn't make him a woman. I think little girls and boys should be allowed to play with what they like, but their choices of clothes or toys don't dictate they need to change gender. Going through puberty is tough, I'm sure lots of us women felt uncomfortable in our bodies during that time. But it's like a butterfly in a cocoon, apparently if you feel sorry for them in their struggle to get out and you cut the cocoon then they are never able to fly, their wings need that pressure to push against to work. For kids who find it hard with the changes happening to their bodies we can be fully supportive and caring and remind them this isn't forever. Most children with gender dysphoria leave adolescence without it, so giving them surgery or drugs which may make them sterile is nothing short of cruel