Gender Discussion #57

[usefullyuseless]

Welcome to TERF Club!

What is a woman?
Meaning of woman: adult human female.

Meaning of female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes (sperm)

What is a man?
Meaning of man: adult human male.

Meaning of male: of or denoting the sex that is distinguished biologically by the production of male gametes (sperm/spermatozoa) which can fertilize female gametes (ova).

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The trans rights movement is a homophobic, misogynistic men's rights movement that preys on vulnerable children and adults.

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Great post from our own Lynn'ssnazzycardigan

As women and girls we have always been told to be vigilant or something bad will happen. We know it’s patronising at best, controlling and victim blaming at worst but infuriatingly enough, experience has shown us there is truth in it. Don’t dress revealing- you might get raped. Don’t accept lifts from strange men- you might get abducted. Don’t accept drinks from strangers- you might get spiked. Don’t walk at night- you might get murdered. We have learned that we must use our eyes, ears, brains and spidey senses in order to not be harmed by men. We have learned that if we are vulnerable the predators will attack. Why then, now, are we to be expected to go against our innate instincts? Swallow down our fears, mute those blaring alarm bells and ignore what our eyes, ears, brains and spidey senses are telling us? That there is a man in places we are vulnerable- toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centre, prison cell, hospital ward. We are expected to forget our history, agency, experience and our safety so the TiM doesn’t get his feelings hurt. And they want us to be vilified by society, lose our jobs and even be punished by law if we don’t comply with their fantasy. It’s ludicrous what is being demanded of us.

 

[Elle]

@Mismatched Pegs Thanks for your post. I hear you.

"I imagine that when you think of a transwoman, you visualise a delicate effeminate male suffering gender dysphoria" - this is true, I really do.

I do NOT want a male predator in a changing room with previous poster's 10 year old daughter. This thread did open my eyes to AGPs and I was and am horrified.

I suppose I see the above quote from @Mismatched Pegs as the majority and the predatory 'bloke in a dress' as a minority giving the rest a bad name.

 

[Mugglewump]

@Mismatched Pegs Thanks for your post. I hear you.

"I imagine that when you think of a transwoman, you visualise a delicate effeminate male suffering gender dysphoria" - this is true, I really do.

I do NOT want a male predator in a changing room with previous poster's 10 year old daughter. This thread did open my eyes to AGPs and I was and am horrified.

I suppose I see the above quote from @Mismatched Pegs as the majority and the predatory 'bloke in a dress' as a minority giving the rest a bad name.

You know the judge in the case in Scotland recognised that the girl only got in the car with a man because he was wearing a dress?
What would you say to that young girl who was kidnapped and sexually assaulted?

 

[Nelly's mum]

Does anyone have that compilation video of TIM's filming themselves in the Women's loo?

 

[hazelnot]

Can't quote as the thread has been closed, but in reference to this post from @Weebles Wobble...

"Regardless of gender or sex we all have the same bodily functions.

No thought or consideration about dealing with periods (and all that it entails) or pregnancy. A complete lack of empathy about what biological women may be dealing with and why we should be entitled to some privacy and dignity - and that includes being able to access a space reserved only for biological women."

I miscarried last year and spent a fair chunk of that time in a public toilet. Things happened while I was out and about and there was nowhere else to go, short of haemorrhaging all over a shop floor. I'd not miscarried before and was struck by how wildly private I suddenly felt - being in a public toilet cubicle was not even close to comfortable, and I wondered at the time how many other women had found themselves in a similar situation. Naively, I'd never considered this as something women might need a public loo for until it happened to me.

To say we all have the same bodily functions regardless of sex or gender is mind boggling ignorance, really, when you consider the bare bones facts that we don't. At the very least, women have periods (and I say "women" but girls are absolutely included in that - mine started at 10; my sisters were 7 and 9 respectively). It's disturbing to think you could "feel" like a woman to the extent you identify as one and want to move through society as such, but have so little understanding of what it means to be a woman that you forget we have functions beyond pee and poop? Surely if you are actually a woman and nature was so cruel as to give you the wrong body you would know and understand that innately?

 

[Elle]

You know the judge in the case in Scotland recognised that the girl only got in the car with a man because he was wearing a dress?
What would you say to that young girl who was kidnapped and sexually assaulted?

Are you suggesting TRAs are to blame for this heinous crime and not...a sick and evil predator?

 

[TbilisiPeach]

@Mismatched Pegs Thanks for your post. I hear you.

"I imagine that when you think of a transwoman, you visualise a delicate effeminate male suffering gender dysphoria" - this is true, I really do.

I do NOT want a male predator in a changing room with previous poster's 10 year old daughter. This thread did open my eyes to AGPs and I was and am horrified.

I suppose I see the above quote from @Mismatched Pegs as the majority and the predatory 'bloke in a dress' as a minority giving the rest a bad name.

That's fair enough. How do you suggest issues around prisons, women shelters or women sports get resolved? The TWaW side usually say that trans women should have access to these female spaces. GCs say that we should segregate by biological sex. Do you have a view on this?

 

[Em_gardener]

Are you suggesting TRAs are to blame for this heinous crime and not...a sick and evil predator?

I think it shows that teaching young girls to accept men as women is dangerous. When I was young we'd all have run a mile from a man in a dress. Nowadays kids are taught to believe that a man in a dress really is a woman.
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TWAW is fine for the easy cases but it very quickly falls apart in my eyes when you get to sports, prisons, intimate care, dv shelters etc. Either all men can be women or no men can be women. You can't just let the nice men be women and tell the not so nice men to forget about it. It's all men or no men and I'm on the side of no men.

 

[Vanelope]

When an unknown man approaches you at night are you completely comfortable because most men are not rapists - or are you on the alert because some men are rapists?

I blame the TRAs for emboldening perverts to dress as women in order to commit crimes - certain that the captured authorities will give them special treatment and even access to vulnerable women.

 

[Weebles Wobble]

Does anyone have that compilation video of TIM's filming themselves in the Women's loo?

This one?

 

[BunnyLebowsky]

I recently had an ultrasound done on my heart - a man did the scan. I was fine with it - I had to get completely naked from the waist up.

I told my mum and she said she'd be uncomfortable with it. She was attacked when she was younger by a man who went on to murder someone else.

Just because I was fine with it, doesn't mean she should be. Ignorance is bliss - lived experience shapes opinions. If you haven't been attacked or raped, you have no right to speak for the women who have or tell them what they should think.

And I'm really annoyed that I had to look up ovarian cysts today, and the Cleveland Clinic used 'person with ovaries' in their article rather than 'woman'.

 

[Miggsy]

Are you suggesting TRAs are to blame for this heinous crime and not...a sick and evil predator?

Of course they are not to blame for the crime. But this individual was a man who had said he was a woman and been using a female name:attempting to prevent outwardly as a female for many years.

TRAs are not to blame for the crime, but they ARE to blame for their pushing of self ID, no debate, TWAW, people are who they say they are just on their say so and if you don’t shut up and agree you’re nothing but a bigot and a TERF

They are not to blame for the crime, but they ARE to blame for the pushing of the ideology which has fostered a society where it was easier for the crime to be committed

 

[Nelly's mum]

This one?

I don't think it's that one, I can't get it to play. The one I was looking for was clips from American/Canadian universities as far as I remember, TIMs filming themselves being disgusting in the Ladies while women were nearby not realising what they were doing
Thanks Weeble

 

[Mismatched Pegs]

"I imagine that when you think of a transwoman, you visualise a delicate effeminate male suffering gender dysphoria" - this is true, I really do.

This was true for many of us. Especially those of us on the political left. Media like The Guardian and the BBC are very trans positive and tend to bury negative stories or spin how they report them (all media spin stories to suit their narrative, whatever political leaning). It skews how we see the issue. The whole reason the TRAs have pushed No Debate for so long is that once you see the ideology for what it is, you can't unsee it.

You might think some of us on here are unnecessarily harsh and "unkind" () about transwomen but you need to bear in mind that this is literally one of a handful of places on the internet (or in real life for some) where we're able to speak the biological truth that transwomen are men. Read that last sentence back again "speak the biological truth..." It's not an opinion it's fact. Are there any other facts that can't be spoken? That have caused women to lose their jobs, be reported to their employers, be piled on or banned from on-line spaces?

I think you're very, very close to coming round entirely to our way of thinking. I think you'll fight the realisation a bit more because you see yourself as a good person and everything you've heard tells you that transwomen are women and to say otherwise is hateful and bigoted. But you'll get there in the end. Good luck, it takes courage to accept that what you believe may not be correct and that you've been mislead. Like I say once you see it, you can't unsee it and then you'll wonder why everyone can't see it. (I don't mean any of this to sound patronising and I hope you accept it in the way it's intended)

 

[weeweegie]

I recently had an ultrasound done on my heart - a man did the scan. I was fine with it - I had to get completely naked from the waist up.

I told my mum and she said she'd be uncomfortable with it. She was attacked when she was younger by a man who went on to murder someone else.

Just because I was fine with it, doesn't mean she should be. Ignorance is bliss - lived experience shapes opinions. If you haven't been attacked or raped, you have no right to speak for the women who have or tell them what they should think.

And I'm really annoyed that I had to look up ovarian cysts today, and the Cleveland Clinic used 'person with ovaries' in their article rather than 'woman'.

This is just it. I’ve said in here before that I always refuse male doctors/nurses when it’s of an intimate nature, even in child birth I refused a male doctor and had to wait for the female doc. I honestly get so upset at the thought of a man ‘down there’ (that isn’t my husband). When I say male doctors I include trans women doctors too. Because they are not women. And that is my right. No one has the right to tell me I’m a bigot for feeling this way. It’s not anti man or anti trans. I have my reasons and they are no one’s business.

Same goes for my mum. She had a breast exam/treatment by a woman recently and during it and while my mums arms were above her head and she was told to stay still, a male nurse wandered in to adjust the machine that was being used and manhandled my mums breasts, without a word to her. She was so upset. There was no consent on my mums part and afterwards when my mum was in tears, the female nurses just repeated that he was just as qualified as them. There doesn’t seem to be any respect for women’s boundaries, privacy and dignity, even from some other women. I was raging. Yet these same women will die on the TWAW hill. It will never, ever make sense to me. @Elle good on you for sticking around here, hopefully some of what we have said has made an impact but I appreciate you desperately want to believe TWAW for reasons you can’t explain and I’m not going to change your mind on that.

 

[MaineCoonMama]

I've been on mixed sex wards in hospital a couple of times, once when recovering from a full hysterectomy. It's very uncomfortable to have men around you while you're so vulnerable. Anyone who has worn a hospital gown for 5 minutes knows they don't cover much, especially without a bra. Covering breasts while keeping the back closed is not easy.
Anyway, I've moved since then and am under a different hospital's care, one who has sex-segregation in wards. The absolute relief of being on a women-only ward is unexplainable.
To me this encapsulates why we need to keep things separate, I can't imagine being on high alert every time I visit a public rest area or find myself in hospital, let alone younger women and girls who are no doubt more tempting to either intimidate, frighten or attack.

 

[Metropolis]

I think it’s dangerous for children to be taught that the evidence of their own eyes and ears, and possibly their instincts, may not be correct. How can it be right to correct a child who correctly sexes a person? If children are taught that what they know to be true is a lie, how else might they be fucked up by the adults in their lives? Might they start questioning whether something that feels wrong to them is actually right and therefore not worth raising to someone is supposed to protect them?

 

[Elle]

Call me cynical but shouldn't we be teaching our children that any and all strangers should be distrusted and avoided? (I am not saying this is relation to this particular crime before anyone twists my words.)

Points I agree on:

1. AGPs and male predators are evil and disgusting and women and children need to be protected.

2. Children should NOT be transitioning. They cannot make an informed decision on this topic and while parents should help bin gender stereotypes and let their child play and explore without judgement, they are *children* and not adults who can make informed decisions about medical interventions or treatments.

3. Biological sex is immutable, yes. Is it fair/realistic to allow trans women to compete against biological women in sports? No.

Things I disagree on:

1. The trans rights movement is a homophobic, misogynistic men's rights movement that preys on vulnerable children and adults.

I am open to continuing to read and learn on this topic. Those who have approached discussions with me in a respectful way have helped with this while those who wear 'I'm a terf and if you think I'm rude then good' like a crown and have sought to belittle me have not. You can be both a terf and a kind person - that is so clear to me now and it once wasn't, i'll admit. But you can also be a terf and an asshole.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

I have no issue with male care from Doctors and Specialist. My oncology surgeon for my breast cancer is male, he doesn't bother me in the slightest because he isn't pretending to be a female.

It's the lie that gets me, it's the delusion that I am supposed to accept even though I know it's not true. That is the problem. How can I trust a person who expects me to go along with the lie?? If you can lie about that, what else can you lie about?

Biological sex is in our DNA, it is a fact. It is nothing like sexuality. I never understood why it was grouped with the LGB movement.

Also, I'm getting a mastectomy this year, does that mean I am no longer a women?? No. Of course not, that would be stupid.

Also just because I am okay with male care doesn't mean I speak for every women. So many women have been abused at the hands of men, of course they should have every right to say no to male care.

 

[VC10]

Are you suggesting TRAs are to blame for this heinous crime and not...a sick and evil predator?

That sick and evil predator was dressed as a Woman . That man was dressed as a Woman. And society is ENABLING it . Kids will accept it, which is what they want, and nasty people will do whatever they want to enable their fetishes/ nastiness/ etc.
Who are safe to to be around? These men are allowed EVERYWHERE- can't you see/ understand that? It's REMOVING a safety barrier, in effect.........you can't tell safe trans from sex assault/ violent cunts , and THEYRE NOW ALLIWED AMONGST 10 YR OLD GIRLS ETC.

For every nice, decent person trans there's one who wants women DEAD. ASSAULTED. FRIGHTENED.

That's fact. Time and time again in the media.
I'm sorry if decent normal transpeople are tarred with the same brush but they need to stand up to the cunts and be counted. And accept that Women DO NOT WANT THEM IN THEIR SPACES.
What's wrong with the Men's loos? None of them will go in there because they want to be in the Women's space and removing their rights and privacies.
Or to get at another victim.

I'm glad you are on here asking questions, it's good to see ' the full picture'. Please don't get upset at Tattle posts as it's Tattle. We all say what we feel. There's a huge amount to think about !