Gender Discussion #57

[Amethyst23]

So, late last year I had treatment for cancer which sent me straight into surgical menopause. I've been really struggling with the symptoms and work has been tricky. I was reading something about menopause policies in workplaces so decided to look yesterday. I work for a local council and we have policies for everything so I assumed we would have one and I could use that to request flexible working etc. Nope.

I was searching related terms and put in 'HRT' and found the trans policy. If I was transitioning, I could request a whole host of different things to help me cope with the -let's be honest, self-inflicted - symptoms but as a woman who got ill, I can't.

 

[hazelnot]

Can't quote as the thread has been closed, but in reference to this post from @Weebles Wobble...

"Regardless of gender or sex we all have the same bodily functions.

No thought or consideration about dealing with periods (and all that it entails) or pregnancy. A complete lack of empathy about what biological women may be dealing with and why we should be entitled to some privacy and dignity - and that includes being able to access a space reserved only for biological women."

I miscarried last year and spent a fair chunk of that time in a public toilet. Things happened while I was out and about and there was nowhere else to go, short of haemorrhaging all over a shop floor. I'd not miscarried before and was struck by how wildly private I suddenly felt - being in a public toilet cubicle was not even close to comfortable, and I wondered at the time how many other women had found themselves in a similar situation. Naively, I'd never considered this as something women might need a public loo for until it happened to me.

To say we all have the same bodily functions regardless of sex or gender is mind boggling ignorance, really, when you consider the bare bones facts that we don't. At the very least, women have periods (and I say "women" but girls are absolutely included in that - mine started at 10; my sisters were 7 and 9 respectively). It's disturbing to think you could "feel" like a woman to the extent you identify as one and want to move through society as such, but have so little understanding of what it means to be a woman that you forget we have functions beyond pee and poop? Surely if you are actually a woman and nature was so cruel as to give you the wrong body you would know and understand that innately?

 

[glubby]

I so badly wish I’d found these threads a couple of years ago. When I was new in my role I got told off in front of everyone in a meeting for referring to a colleague (who was not in the meeting) as “she”. This person was very obviously a women, didn’t look androgynous in the slightest, always wore very feminine outfits and makeup, had a female name, but somehow I as a brand new member of the team was expected to know and remember that she was a “they/them”. It really knocked my confidence as I considered myself a trans ally at the time and I felt so embarrassed and horrified at my mistake. I actually stopped speaking in meetings for a long time after that because I was so scared I’d slip up again. But I was also angry that this person put no effort into actually presenting as non binary but it was still treated like I’d committed a crime for taking the very obvious visual/verbal cues I’d been presented with at face value. At that point I could have seen the light and realised what a stupid sham this all is, but instead I told myself I was being sexist for assuming that a woman or a man had to look a certain way and tried very hard to unlearn my prejudices What a fool I was.

 

[Westcoasthippydreamgirl]

I cannot thank everyone enough on this thread. I have a child with gender dysphoria and it is just so distressing and reading here has become a lifeline for me. Thank you for all the resources, they have been so helpful.

My life has completely flipped in the last 12 months. I can't believe this is happening to our family.

 

[hazelnot]

From what you have said, it sounds like some of you used to be very similar to me (highly trans sympathetic, shall we call it?!). I'm curious as to whether it applies to everyone here that you were once only slightly GC or not at all and then became increasingly GC. Or whether some of you were GC from the very start?

It's interesting because Contrapoints described being GC as being in a whirlpool and once you're in deep you can't get out of it whereas some of you have said it's a case of having your eyes opened and not being able to unsee it.

The latter for me. Rachel Dolezal came up in conversation with a workmate and it struck me all of a sudden; how is self-identifying gender any different to self-identifying race? Why is weight-related body dysmorphia treated as a mental illness but believing your genitalia should be different is A-OK? It shifted my thinking enough to apply more of a "what if" lens, and the more I thought about it, there's not a single trans person I know personally or have seen online who doesn't seem to have some deep mental shit going on. I don't mean that to sound dismissive or reductive, but from what I've seen, it's true - there's always a deep, complex mental battle behind the trans-ness, be it unresolved trauma, belonging to a homophobic family, not receiving adequate love or attention elsewhere, former/current abuse, etc.

I know three people personally who have gone through long, painful medical journeys to transition, and right before their surgery (in New Zealand - I don't know how different the process might be overseas) have pulled the pin and started the process of reversing everything because actually they're just gay. With each, I wonder how different their personal journey and wellbeing might be/have been with appropriate mental health support vs. blind promotion/encouragement of trans?

The more I thought about it, the more I read, the more convinced I became that trans is simply a form of body dysmorphia, and it's a crying shame that we have a completely broken mental health system (in New Zealand, at least) and are leaving people broken and alone but pouring funding and support into this new 'movement'. Publicly funded IVF has some very questionable eligibility criteria and requires a fair bit of hoop-jumping for straight couples, but trans get fast-tracked through. There are a whole lot of 'wtf' moments out there, and when you boil things down, it is an ideology. It's not science, it's not biological fact, and if you engage a little 'whataboutism', it's really bloody scary that we're quick to agree people have been born into the wrong bodies and do everything we can to nurture them through the journey to their 'real selves' re gender but not disability or illness. It's just not real life. I'm sure lots of people with dwarfism feel they were born into the wrong bodies, but hey, tough shit.

It just doesn't make sense to me, speaking purely factually, then when you consider how quickly and drastically society at large has adapted and changed to pander to this specifically, things get scary. Live your life, sure, but like others have said above, why does everybody and everything have to change for this one ideology, the population of which is without doubt a minority? And often temporary - like veganism, Christianity, Buddhism, or any other ideology, some are committed forever but plenty back off or move away from it altogether. Disabled people or those with chronic illness understand mainstream health messaging doesn't always speak to them and have had to learn to advocate for themselves and adapt where necessary. We won't go out of our way for people living with conditions they have no choice about - often we won't even do the bare fucking basics of making public spaces accessible - but we WILL make huge concessions and adapt society at large for people who want to be a different gender?

... Etc.

 

[terfette]

From what you have said, it sounds like some of you used to be very similar to me (highly trans sympathetic, shall we call it?!). I'm curious as to whether it applies to everyone here that you were once only slightly GC or not at all and then became increasingly GC. Or whether some of you were GC from the very start?

It's interesting because Contrapoints described being GC as being in a whirlpool and once you're in deep you can't get out of it whereas some of you have said it's a case of having your eyes opened and not being able to unsee it.

I was very sympathetic. When my ex told me he wanted to "live as a woman" I supported him. I knew it meant our relationship wouldn't last, as I didn't find it attractive. I thought I could help guide him so that he could keep some dignity.

My eyes were opened over the course of the following year and I left one day. He kept everything I owned, clothes, shoes (four sizes too small mind), make up, furniture. Four years on he sits in a flat I decorated surrounded by my property, using my old phone number and goes on Pinterest saving pins of clothes I've bought since that he's seen on my Instagram.

Everybody who has seen him since I left says the same "He's trying to be you".

 

[BunnyLebowsky]

I recently had an ultrasound done on my heart - a man did the scan. I was fine with it - I had to get completely naked from the waist up.

I told my mum and she said she'd be uncomfortable with it. She was attacked when she was younger by a man who went on to murder someone else.

Just because I was fine with it, doesn't mean she should be. Ignorance is bliss - lived experience shapes opinions. If you haven't been attacked or raped, you have no right to speak for the women who have or tell them what they should think.

And I'm really annoyed that I had to look up ovarian cysts today, and the Cleveland Clinic used 'person with ovaries' in their article rather than 'woman'.

 

[blahblahboring]

I just saw a post on FB about a women’s-only club starting in my city. It looks like a networking/social thing. The comments underneath from men were so disgusting. Talking about how they’re neglecting their responsibilities to their families, that they’ll all be single mothers soon, complaining that there’s no equivalent for men and if the men tried to start one, there would be outrage from women. Really nasty comments. And I bet all the men making these statements would describe themselves as good guys, family men blah, blah. As I get older, I really start to agree with German Greer when she said that most women have no idea how much men hate them. It’s a sad realisation. I was then surprised at how quickly comments started up suggesting that men should show up and say they identify as women to join in and destroy the meetings. As a way of teaching women that they shouldn’t try to have their own things. It was a perfect little one-hour demo of how men’s rights groups have jumped onto the trans ideology, not because they care about people with dysphoria, but to eradicate women’s rights. Sickening.

 

[Em_gardener]

Are you suggesting TRAs are to blame for this heinous crime and not...a sick and evil predator?

I think it shows that teaching young girls to accept men as women is dangerous. When I was young we'd all have run a mile from a man in a dress. Nowadays kids are taught to believe that a man in a dress really is a woman.
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TWAW is fine for the easy cases but it very quickly falls apart in my eyes when you get to sports, prisons, intimate care, dv shelters etc. Either all men can be women or no men can be women. You can't just let the nice men be women and tell the not so nice men to forget about it. It's all men or no men and I'm on the side of no men.

 

[maytoseptember]

Why do they?

OK, where do I start? I’ve said this so many times but I don’t mind saying it again.

Autistic girls, whether they have a diagnosis or not, have spent this entire lives - from a really young age - knowing that they are different. They know their peers think they’re weird. They know they aren’t like other girls. They know they are rejected socially. They aren’t in the popular gangs (and yes, the popular groups of girls are clear for all to see in the last couple of years of primary school, if not earlier).

They don’t have the same hobbies or interests like other girls. They might have sensory issues with clothing that keeps them in comfy leggings, jogging bottoms and t shirts (dresses? Forget it).

Enter the teen years and they might have zero interest in boys and relationships (it’s not that they’re gay, so many autistic people are late bloomers when it comes to relationships and sex); in fact, the idea is kind of terrifying. Not that anyone shows a romantic interest in them, they’re just a nerd/a freak.

They look at female beauty standards - the kind of make up a drag queen would approve of, perfect hair, perfect skin, amazing outfits, lip filler. They really don’t have any interest in make up
and hair. They look at what is expected of girls and women sexually, from porn addled boys. They see the sexual harrassment and assaults happening at school. They hear about a girl having her nudes sent out to hundreds of people.

Coming out as trans or non-binary isn’t just a get out clause, it’s a lifeline. Here you have a way to declare that absolutely NONE of this shit applies to you, because you’re not a girl. Maybe all the shit you’ve experienced all your life is because you were a boy all along. Better still, coming out as trans means, for the first time in your life, you have a little bit of social cachet. In certain circles, it’s really cool to be trans. You get to be invited into the friendship circle of other “queer” kids. As a socially awkward kid, you are crying out for a little gang of weirdos to hang out with.

I would 100% be non-binary if I was a 15 year old today.

 

[Scotch Mist]

I so badly wish I’d found these threads a couple of years ago. When I was new in my role I got told off in front of everyone in a meeting for referring to a colleague (who was not in the meeting) as “she”. This person was very obviously a women, didn’t look androgynous in the slightest, always wore very feminine outfits and makeup, had a female name, but somehow I as a brand new member of the team was expected to know and remember that she was a “they/them”. It really knocked my confidence as I considered myself a trans ally at the time and I felt so embarrassed and horrified at my mistake. I actually stopped speaking in meetings for a long time after that because I was so scared I’d slip up again. But I was also angry that this person put no effort into actually presenting as non binary but it was still treated like I’d committed a crime for taking the very obvious visual/verbal cues I’d been presented with at face value. At that point I could have seen the light and realised what a stupid sham this all is, but instead I told myself I was being sexist for assuming that a woman or a man had to look a certain way and tried very hard to unlearn my prejudices What a fool I was.

The pronoun police love jumping on other people to try and control them. They can all fuck off as far as I'm concerned.

It's totally illogical anyway

 

[usefullyuseless]

Welcome to TERF Club!

What is a woman?
Meaning of woman: adult human female.

Meaning of female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes (sperm)

What is a man?
Meaning of man: adult human male.

Meaning of male: of or denoting the sex that is distinguished biologically by the production of male gametes (sperm/spermatozoa) which can fertilize female gametes (ova).

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The trans rights movement is a homophobic, misogynistic men's rights movement that preys on vulnerable children and adults.

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Great post from our own Lynn'ssnazzycardigan

As women and girls we have always been told to be vigilant or something bad will happen. We know it’s patronising at best, controlling and victim blaming at worst but infuriatingly enough, experience has shown us there is truth in it. Don’t dress revealing- you might get raped. Don’t accept lifts from strange men- you might get abducted. Don’t accept drinks from strangers- you might get spiked. Don’t walk at night- you might get murdered. We have learned that we must use our eyes, ears, brains and spidey senses in order to not be harmed by men. We have learned that if we are vulnerable the predators will attack. Why then, now, are we to be expected to go against our innate instincts? Swallow down our fears, mute those blaring alarm bells and ignore what our eyes, ears, brains and spidey senses are telling us? That there is a man in places we are vulnerable- toilets, changing rooms, rape crisis centre, prison cell, hospital ward. We are expected to forget our history, agency, experience and our safety so the TiM doesn’t get his feelings hurt. And they want us to be vilified by society, lose our jobs and even be punished by law if we don’t comply with their fantasy. It’s ludicrous what is being demanded of us.

 

[Lynn’ssnazzycardigan]

I got the email that my son (year 7) will be starting PSE so I thought I would check out the provider after seeing some horror stories on here. I watched the presentation they will be shown on trans and I was pleasantly surprised! They start off by showing a graphic of the chromosomes and saying biological sex is a fact that cannot be changed. Then that some people follow gender ideology which is a belief. They say there are some people who have dysphoria and feel immense relief when they transition, but that others who do so go on to regret it. They also emphasise that most people learn to live with it and have a man with dysphoria talk about how he grew to accept himself as he is- a different type of man from the gender stereotype. It’s a Catholic school so it is very heavy on making your peace with and knowing you are loved by God. And how we were each made exactly as intended. The thing they talked big on as well is saying that someone with dysphoria can be very unhappy in themselves and will need the love and support of family and friends to get through it. I was relieved that my son won’t have to sit there and listen to gender woo and that he is a bigot because we are GC.

 

[Vanelope]

When an unknown man approaches you at night are you completely comfortable because most men are not rapists - or are you on the alert because some men are rapists?

I blame the TRAs for emboldening perverts to dress as women in order to commit crimes - certain that the captured authorities will give them special treatment and even access to vulnerable women.

 

[AbnormalFrog]

My daughter's class had an incident lately where the boys were laughing at one of the girls saying she was 'flat'.

She's 10.

The objectification starts in primary school.

 

[MaineCoonMama]

Found on the Saccone Joly thread (they have a son they push as trans, he's only 9.)
Fucking unbelievable, this woman needs a head check.

 

[Falkor]

Oh God, I've always been pro-surrogate and now y'all are giving me a whole new thing to think twice about

It's another reframing thing, isn't it? In the same way that when people hear 'trans' they often think 'man desparately loathing their own body to the point where they're prepared to go through extensive and difficult surgery to change it, we should be supportive' rather than 'AGP waving his penis around in female changing rooms', when people hear 'surrogate' the first thought is often 'someone doing a brave and selfless thing to enable a couple who desperately want a child but can't have one to have a family' rather than 'big bucks international baby trafficking'.

 

[usefullyuseless]

My opening post says 'The trans rights movement is a homophobic, misogynistic men's rights movement that preys on vulnerable children and adults.'

I say it's homophobic because TRA will tell young gay people that they're not gay, they're the opposite sex trapped in the wrong body. Parents of a young boy that enjoys playing with dolls will be told their child is trans and the parents should put the child on 'gender affirming' care. Same with tomboys. This movement encourages the erasure of same sex attracted people by declaring them trans instead. Lesbians are accused of being transphobic because they won't date transwomen. The fact these transwomen are men in dresses is apparently irrelevant.

This ties into the misogyny I mention. Women are threatened that they will be doxxed, lose their jobs, they are threatened with physical violence if they don't kowtow to the idea that men can become women, if they won't accept men into women's spaces. There are reasons why women need single sex spaces; safety, privacy, dignity. Men should not be in women's changing rooms, toilets, prisons, hospital wards, refuges etc. Men should not be allowed take opportunities from women that have been created for them eg scholarships, working groups or programs. I see plenty of TRA calling for violence against women who don't follow their ideology. Go on Etsy and you can buy 'Kill TERFS' merchandise. At their public events TRA will actively encourage people to harm women. JKR and other prominent figures have received death threats for simply expressing the fact that men cannot become women and they don't belong in women's spaces.

So, men's rights movement - I think my last two points address this. TRA seek to remove rights from women.

Lastly, the vulnerable children and adults bit. Why do we see so many so many young women presenting as trans? Many of them are victims of sexual assault or abuse or are ND - but instead of addressing any of these root concerns, the trans 'community' love bombs them with affirmation that they're trans. They groom vulnerable people to go down the route of cross-sex hormones and irreversible surgeries. Parents don't agree? TRA say to threaten suicide, tell them they should rather have a living son than a dead daughter. TRA paint a picture that changing sex/gender will solve all of their problems. Issues with the surgery? Having doubts? The once warm, accepting community will turn on them, attack and ostracise them. Their experiences will be discredited. Legitimate groups/communities don't behave like this, this is cult like.

...

This became much longer than I intended, thanks to anyone who reads it all!

 

[Mismatched Pegs]

"I imagine that when you think of a transwoman, you visualise a delicate effeminate male suffering gender dysphoria" - this is true, I really do.

This was true for many of us. Especially those of us on the political left. Media like The Guardian and the BBC are very trans positive and tend to bury negative stories or spin how they report them (all media spin stories to suit their narrative, whatever political leaning). It skews how we see the issue. The whole reason the TRAs have pushed No Debate for so long is that once you see the ideology for what it is, you can't unsee it.

You might think some of us on here are unnecessarily harsh and "unkind" () about transwomen but you need to bear in mind that this is literally one of a handful of places on the internet (or in real life for some) where we're able to speak the biological truth that transwomen are men. Read that last sentence back again "speak the biological truth..." It's not an opinion it's fact. Are there any other facts that can't be spoken? That have caused women to lose their jobs, be reported to their employers, be piled on or banned from on-line spaces?

I think you're very, very close to coming round entirely to our way of thinking. I think you'll fight the realisation a bit more because you see yourself as a good person and everything you've heard tells you that transwomen are women and to say otherwise is hateful and bigoted. But you'll get there in the end. Good luck, it takes courage to accept that what you believe may not be correct and that you've been mislead. Like I say once you see it, you can't unsee it and then you'll wonder why everyone can't see it. (I don't mean any of this to sound patronising and I hope you accept it in the way it's intended)

 

[weeweegie]

Maybe I'm being facetious but India says this is her 'first encounter with a terf within the NHS'. No idea how long she's been using the NHS as a trans woman but she says she's been at this GP surgery for 8 years....if you haven't had an encounter with a TERF within the NHS in at least at least 8 years (she will have 'encountered' them just not been aware of it) doesn't that just prove that TERFs aren't out to get you? They're minding their own business not spewing hate at you?
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Well, India was a bloke called Jonathan until he was 50 years old, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t give a shit about how actual women are treated by doctors. Actual serious issues because of our female biology. How long it takes to get diagnosed with endo for example, being shooed away when you’re on your knees with menopause symptoms, the indignity of smear tests (when I was young and nervous a nurse basically called me frigid during a smear test). So many things. Women silently suffer a whole host of injustices and indignities within the healthcare system. But you won’t hear India highlighting any of that because it doesn’t effect him and he doesn’t give a shit about anyone apart from himself. What a woman he is! Poor hurty feelings because of a big bad terf (aka a woman who doesn’t put up with his misogynistic shit). He never aims his vile anger at men. Always, always women.

Sorry, India and Eddie Izzard get me riled, can’t help it