Gender Discussion #54

[exhausted_mother]

I agree with you that CS case is different, whilst we can say "men are men, women are women" when there are cases like DSD it isn't black and white. For someone who grows up with no pen, internal testes, and, I believe, at least some approximation of a tina, you can understand how it would be possible to want to be identified as a woman, even if puberty has brought out more masculine characteristics. Whilst we have said people do not have a right to define their own gender based on how they feel, I think in the case of those with DSD, it would be good to have more compassion for them. This group seems to have labelled CS as a manipulator, but working for a career in elite sports and then being told you can't take part any more would be a difficult thing. I know it wouldn't be fair for women to compete against them, but that doesn't mean we need to be hateful

Why do women need to be so bloody kind?

CS didn’t discover he was male 2 weeks ago, his maleness was obvious at puberty and he was socialised as a male. I could offer some sympathy if this was simply a story about someone with DSD & their challenges. But it isn’t. It’s a long term lie - he has XY chromosomes, he has normal testosterone for a male, and refused to lower his levels as he funnily enough can’t compete then. He has every right to compete as a male against others males who have gone through male puberty.

 

[SkippyDoo]

My point was that some differences of opinion are too far apart to breach, sadly. As evidenced by replies including yours.
As noted elsewhere on tattle, people can post where they like.
---

You’re not really posting anything for anyone to engage with, though. Do you want a discussion or just to say there is a wide difference of opinion that can’t be broached? If your opinion is that objective reality isn’t crucial, then I will agree we might be far apart.

 

[OwlAtTheMoon]

You’re not really posting anything for anyone to engage with, though. Do you want a discussion or just to say there is a wide difference of opinion that can’t be broached? If your opinion is that objective reality isn’t crucial, then I will agree we might be far apart.

Well we're sort of having a discussion, aren't we...? My original post was about not getting the hate for Caster Semenya. That was me engaging after reading posts about her. Engagement doesn't have to = total agreement with the line of posts on a thread.
'Objective reality' is an interesting one because, as I understand you, you mean objective reality as you interpret it? Whereas, as it's such a divisive topic, I take it to mean your subjective stance on this.
But it's very interesting to glance into a thread I don't normally visit, seeing the different responses. I get the passion and righteousness behind it, I just don't agree with you on a lot of it. That doesn't make us enemies but it does mean we're unlikely to agree on an anonymous forum.

 

[SkippyDoo]

Well we're sort of having a discussion, aren't we...? My original post was about not getting the hate for Caster Semenya. That was me engaging after reading posts about her. Engagement doesn't have to = total agreement with the line of posts on a thread.
'Objective reality' is an interesting one because, as I understand you, you mean objective reality as you interpret it? Whereas, as it's such a divisive topic, I take it to mean your subjective stance on this.
But it's very interesting to glance into a thread I don't normally visit, seeing the different responses. I get the passion and righteousness behind it, I just don't agree with you on a lot of it. That doesn't make us enemies but it does mean we're unlikely to agree on an anonymous forum.

We are now, yes… I think people have mostly been generous to Caster and understanding of the fact Caster’s health condition causes issues. The word you quoted was one word extracted without the two words following, which made it seem worse than it was.

The objective reality here is that Caster is a man, and how kind do we (or any women) need to be about ignoring this before we are kind enough? I don’t like to see a discussion about international competitive sport policed with “women aren’t being nice!”, personally. How nice is it to take a woman’s medal from her when you’re a man? I mean, really?

I think it would have been best if a lack of kindness in favour of some scientific and rules-based rigour, and some recognition of Caster’s biological sex, had set in earlier. It would certainly be fairer.

The fact is women’s titles and opportunities have been taken by a man, and there’s a strong possibility this was never really a man who really thought he was female. I think it would probably be reasonable if women weren’t nice at all. How nice do men have to be to Lance Armstrong? After all, he has had cancer etc. He’s also a cheat, mind you.

 

[maytoseptember]

Gosh, that must be quite some time ago I wrote that, amazed you looked back that far in my posts!
Thanks though, for helping remind me why I steer clear of here usually. It would be boring if everyone thought the same on every single topic, but in some cases the differences of opinion are just too wide to broach, sadly.

Only about three weeks. Was curious to know whether you’d registered just to berate us for calling CS a male, but you hadn’t.

 

[klarakluckbag]

"Passion and righteousness"? That makes us sound like religious maniacs, or cult members. Which is ironic when you consider the TWAW chant from the zealots who continually try to convince us that it is fact...which it isn't.
Misguided women, box-ticking NHS managers, and vote-chasing politicians may like to tell us that some women have penises (they don't) or that not only women have cervixes (just wrong), but anyone who is scientifically literate, with an ounce of common sense, knows that we're being lied to. Insisting that biological men can be "lesbians" is disgusting, and letting men force their way into women's spaces is setting dangerous precedents, as is telling little kids that men can have babies, or that women have penises. The whole movement is just madness, as a middle-aged woman, I can't believe that young people are being led to believe this rubbish, especially in the UK. If we started teaching Creationism as scientific fact in our schools, there would be an outcry, no matter how "passionate and righteous" the teachers. But telling kids that some "men can be mummies" is somehow ok? What a load of crap!

 

[sylviepie]

@SkippyDoo Exactly. It IS possible to be sympathetic to individual circumstances and at the same time say there is a line to be drawn when rights are being taken from other people. Being sympathetic doesn't have to include giving someone exactly what they're asking for all the time.

EDIT TO ADD Come to think of it, when Oscar Pistorius was banned because of his blades, were there as many people saying he should be given a break because he'd already been through enough losing his legs? The line was clear that he had an unfair advantage (Caster's XY chromosomes are even easier to quantify than blades). The general tone was that fairness always had to take priority. Caster's case seems more up for discussion, which isn't surprising considering the meaning of male/man and female/woman has been taken on a merry dance in the last few years!

 

[emmer_moans]

That feeling when you have an actor/celeb crush (especially those in their 40s, 50s, 60s etc, so not GenZ'ers), you start googling them, see they are quite witty, clever in interviews, etc, then you make the mistake of checking their Twitter feed and they are reposting all the TR'Ally' crap with the trans colours etc. FFS you seemed so sensible and wise in interviews and now I see you are just another man who has fallen for this crap. Disappointed

Obviously people can have their own opinions but it disheartens me to see genuinely clever and talented people parroting this crap. Same as when they get so political too.

(Note to self, never check their socials 🫣)

 

[klarakluckbag]

That feeling when you have an actor/celeb crush (especially those in their 40s, 50s, 60s etc, so not GenZ'ers), you start googling them, see they are quite witty, clever in interviews, etc, then you make the mistake of checking their Twitter feed and they are reposting all the TR'Ally' crap with the trans colours etc. FFS you seemed so sensible and wise in interviews and now I see you are just another man who has fallen for this crap. Disappointed

Obviously people can have their own opinions but it disheartens me to see genuinely clever and talented people parroting this crap. Same as when they get so political too.

(Note to self, never check their socials 🫣)

@emmer_moans To be fair, a lot of actors probably can't afford to take the hit from coming out as pro-women (which, as we all know, somehow equates to being "anti-trans" ) We can all see what happened to JKR, Graham Linehan, Amanda Abbington, James Dreyfus, etc. I can't blame celebs for being cautious, but I DO blame them for going along with what they think is the popular stance, just to try to remain relevant. And they're always so preachy! It's all "TWAW and that's that. No argument". I don't think they realise that the vast majority of sane, normal folk are like, "Yeah, ok, but everyone knows they're not actually women, right? Aren't we just being kind?"

 

[terfette]

I don't get the personal hate for Caster Semenya. However I do understand the complexities and frustrations of competitors at seeming/actual advantage because of elevated testosterone levels. But Caster was born female, with a tina, she was brought up as a girl. It's not somehow her 'fault' her DSD became more pronounced at puberty, or that she happened to be passionate about middle-distance running. She is still a woman - albeit a 'different kind of woman' as she names herself. And who the hell cares how she and her partner became parents, that's no one else's business surely.

Of course it's not his fault he was born with a DSD condition. Nobody ever said it was.

There are lots of men that are born with physical differences to most other men. There are men who experience things growing up that most men don't. There are men who experience things that more typically happen to women. These things often have profound lifelong effects on those men.

None of these things change the fact they are men, however. Semenyas condition only effects men. Women with the same gene mutation do not develop differently than other women. If his condition made a difference to his biological sex, he would not need to lie about it.

 

[Quokka]

The sarcasm is noted but thank you Quokka, for proving my point so beautifully.

I wasn't being sarcastic. I'm legitimately confused by your assertation that some opinions are too wild or crazy or wide to breach. How is the idea that a biological male is a biological male an opinion so crazy that you can't stay on the thread to read or discuss why we're all so concerned and upset?

ETA: you didn't have any points in your comment so I have no idea what I've supposedly proved to you.

 

[OwlAtTheMoon]

I wasn't being sarcastic. I'm legitimately confused by your assertation that some opinions are too wild or crazy or wide to breach. How is the idea that a biological male is a biological male an opinion so crazy that you can't stay on the thread to read or discuss why we're all so concerned and upset?

It's frustrating I know but I simply don't agree with the tone & content of some of the posts on this thread about Caster Semenya. I guess this is what I mean by an 'unbreachable' difference of opinion. We're unlikely to change each other's mind. Forums like this are interesting but they rarely/never lead to anyone persuading/dissuading anyone else from their viewpoint, and that's okay.

 

[terfette]

It's frustrating I know but I simply don't agree with the tone & content of some of the posts on this thread about Caster Semenya. I guess this is what I mean by an 'unbreachable' difference of opinion. We're unlikely to change each other's mind. Forums like this are interesting but they rarely/never lead to anyone persuading/dissuading anyone else from their viewpoint, and that's okay.

Apart from the term "freak of nature", which, although I fully believe the poster was not using it with the intent of degrading or insulting, I accept isn't the most sensitive phrase even when it's being used light heartedly, I'm struggling to see what "tone and content" you are talking about.

 

[Dinate]

One thing on Caster Semanya only getting a birth certificate when she was 16: in South Africa, it wasn't unusual for people born in rural villages not to have proper birth certificates until they moved into a city and needed proper documentation to apply for the compulsory id. I lived in SA in the 1990s and I am aware that it was a fairly common occurrence. So, I don't think that there's anything strange or calculated about that. I don't think she was involved with any sporting agents at that stage either, so presumably this what what she believed she was at the time and how she was living.

As I've said previously in this thread, I do have sympathy for Caster as I think she was raised as a girl, albeit one who was a tomboy. The fact that she was different would only have become apparent when she went through puberty, but I doubt that anyone at this point was thinking about DSD or similar.

I don't blame her for being angry at her situation and feeling that the world is against her but that doesn't change the fact that she shouldn't be competing against women because she has an unfair advantage. I think that you can feel sorry for her, whilst at the same time being clear that about.

 

[Metropolis]

I think the Caster Semenya case is particularly concerning because the TRAs are waiting in the wings to use it to further justify TIMs taking women’s places in competitive sports. Semenya ‘hopes to overturn requirements that female athletes such as herself have to medically change their testosterone levels in order to compete in female competitions’ at the ECHR. If Semenya is successful, what are the implications for TIMs who say they are ‘female’?

Semenya further complicates matters because although not trans, has said that
“even though I understand that those in the medical community call me an ‘intersex’ person because of the way my internal organs are structured, I do not call myself ‘intersex’. That identity doesn’t fit me, it doesn’t fit my soul.” So again, there is this conflation between biological reality and ‘feelings’ or a ‘gendered soul.’

Caster Semenya on being told ‘you’re not woman enough’

The two-time Olympic champion has been the subject of fierce debate in the sports community about her status as a female athlete

www.independent.co.uk

 

[SkippyDoo]

It's frustrating I know but I simply don't agree with the tone & content of some of the posts on this thread about Caster Semenya. I guess this is what I mean by an 'unbreachable' difference of opinion. We're unlikely to change each other's mind. Forums like this are interesting but they rarely/never lead to anyone persuading/dissuading anyone else from their viewpoint, and that's okay.

As you’ve only been able to cite one word in one post taken out of context to illustrate your concern, the observation must be that you very likely don’t like women pushing back strongly against men claiming to be women in their protected spaces, which has been most of this discussion, premised on the observation that Caster is of course male.

It isn’t offensive to say that Caster is male any more than it is to say I am female, and cannot be biologically related to my kids. I can’t have fathered my children and can’t be their biological mother if my partner is. Those are facts. They can be communicated more rudely or politely, but they’re facts. Of course there is no need to shout them in my face a propos of nothing, but if I’m running around demanding that others around me recognise a situation that doesn’t line up to reality people might point them out to me. If Caster would live a quiet life not taking women’s sports’ opportunities from them I would wish him the very best and have no argument with him. But Caster IS male (objective fact — you’re welcome to argue that if you wish and I think you tried) and doesn’t belong in female sport (a strong opinion based on the idea of keeping female sport competitive — you’re welcome to not find that very important and come up against people who do, which you might not like).

Caster might have been raised under a misapprehension of being female (only might), which would make things tougher for Caster, but none of that connects to an idea that we ditch the concept of why female competitive sport had to be invented.

 

[Notworthy]

It's frustrating I know but I simply don't agree with the tone & content of some of the posts on this thread about Caster Semenya. I guess this is what I mean by an 'unbreachable' difference of opinion. We're unlikely to change each other's mind. Forums like this are interesting but they rarely/never lead to anyone persuading/dissuading anyone else from their viewpoint, and that's okay.

The tone and content on this thread is because this has been dragging on for 14 bleeping years and during that time numerous Women have lost medals, opportunities and money. That is all down to Semenya and their team refusing to acknowledge that he is a cheat that doesn't belong in the Female category. Instead they have doubled and tripled down. If Semenya and others with the same DSD (ie Males) weren't smashing the dreams of actual biological Women but instead just retired from Athletics and lived their lives however they pleased there would be no 'hate'. Pretty much everyone on here has expressed sympathy for the teenage Semenya that was so publicly outed but that was in 2009.
Are you really of the mind that a biological Male should have the right to compete in the Female category, a category that came about because Women can't compete physically with Men on a level playing field in most sports. Do you really believe that opportunities expressly there for Women should be co-opted by Men. Where do you think that will leave Women's sport long term.

For the record this particular forum has actually changed peoples mind because we have scientific reality on our side and we have numerous intelligent posters that are able to clearly and concisely explain what is actually happening without 'hate'

 

[VeniVidiVicki]

I have long been a fan of athletics. My dad was a middle distance runner and as a family we watched athletics meets - not just the Olympics but commonwealth games and national championships.

I vividly remember Lynsey Sharp’s medal hopes going into Rio. It’s so exciting watching British athletes doing well on the world stage. She was a real contender - a long string of successes and records to her name. In the 800m women’s race, I watched her, Melissa Bishop and Joanna Jozwik be easily beaten by three men all of whom have 5-ARD and all of whom are now banned by World Athletics from competing in women’s races. Lynsey was absolutely vilified in the media for being upset at missing out on a medal and for not congratulating Semenya.

Semenya, despite the ruling that he is male and that the only difference between him and other men is that his genitals didn’t develop correctly, still holds the women’s record for 4th fastest time in the 800m.

So no, I don’t have much sympathy for him. My sympathy is with the women and girls who have lost out on medals and opportunities right the way through his career.

 

[DoraMaar]

Questions about Genspect and Stella O'Malley - raised as a result of a conference in the US - apparently AGPs were 'on display' as part of the conference

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

I have long been a fan of athletics. My dad was a middle distance runner and as a family we watched athletics meets - not just the Olympics but commonwealth games and national championships.

I vividly remember Lynsey Sharp’s medal hopes going into Rio. It’s so exciting watching British athletes doing well on the world stage. She was a real contender - a long string of successes and records to her name. In the 800m women’s race, I watched her, Melissa Bishop and Joanna Jozwik be easily beaten by three men all of whom have 5-ARD and all of whom are now banned by World Athletics from competing in women’s races. Lynsey was absolutely vilified in the media for being upset at missing out on a medal and for not congratulating Semenya.

Semenya, despite the ruling that he is male and that the only difference between him and other men is that his genitals didn’t develop correctly, still holds the women’s record for 4th fastest time in the 800m.

So no, I don’t have much sympathy for him. My sympathy is with the women and girls who have lost out on medals and opportunities right the way through his career.

It's bleeping insane that stating this fact is considered "hate" by some people.