Gender Discussion #23

[appleskin]

This is a bit random but does anyone else just feel a bit miserable about anything to do with 'diversity and inclusion' at work now? I used to be so passionate about D&I at work back when it was about more than just calling men 'she' and women with short hair 'they'. I actually dread anything about D&I coming up now because it's so blinkered and tedious, I can't remember the last time a D&I event focused as much on disabled people, or people from disadvantaged backgrounds, or women (in the real sense of the word) or even ethnic minorities. It's always about 'inclusive language' etc these days and to be honest even if you buy into the balls (which obviously I don't) I feel like it's so overdone and boring anyway? It's absolutely bizarre the power and attention this particular group have obtained tbh.

I haven't had any D&I training yet but I'm sure it will happen soon SW have been in a few years.

My colleague got an email with pronouns and shared in our group chat (adding not to forget to add our pronouns - I think she was joking but not sure) and another colleague male 40s couldn't understand the reason for the pronouns - I was flat out and only really have one chance to ensure they know it's utter tit without crossing the line of getting in trouble, will also need to be short as they aren't gonna bother with links, though a link to a pronoun site might work

 

[jordishaw]

Yes! And I feel terrible about it because I really do care about marginalised people being given opportunities at work, but at the moment it is all just paying lip service to "inclusivity" by constantly talking about transgender people, putting tampon machines in the men's loos for the zero trans men at work, trying to climb that bloody Stonewall list - meanwhile, any focus on anyone else or wellbeing in a pandemic has been tossed aside.

I hate that it makes me feel like some grumpy old woman... I'm a working class, left wing, youngish woman and I'm increasingly pissed off at being told by men and women more privileged than me that men who say they're women are suddenly the most disadvantaged group of people on earth.

Such a relief to see other people expressing this, I was afraid it was just me being old and cranky (I am unrepentantly a grumpy old woman, and most of the. time I enjoy this). Hard agree that it's a quick window-dressing fix, and a way of avoiding looking at the real issues in higher education especially talking about class. I'd signed up as a rep at my workplace and was astonished at the first meeting how we'd ended up in a situation where the room was dominated by a handful of posh boys talking about pronouns.

 

[bananabutter]

I genuinely do not understand the need for pronouns in email signatures. When you see someone you can tell if they are a man or a woman. And if for example you can see it’s a man who is trans, they are going to try their best to “look like a woman” so surely they’ll want to be addressed as she if they’ve made the effort to look like a woman?

The only time I’ve ever wondered if someone is a male/female is if someone has a “gender neutral name” like Alex, but then as soon as you see/speak to them it’s blatantly obvious.

 

[holliebollie]

If you’re emailing someone called Dave, chances are he’s a man (biological or trans man although not sure why you’d rename yourself Dave). Emailing a Louise? Woman or trans woman. Non specific name like Alex? Who gives a duck, you’re sending them an email. Starts with pronouns, ends with a man winning a women’s swimming race.

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

Some things my body did I didn't consent to:

Got older than 25
Bleeds once a month
Developed a (thankfully currently mild) chronic illness

 

[Dot_Cotton]

Agreed, as soon as inclusive is mentioned I automatically think it will be trans/gender related and just lose interest. We have “period products” in the mens toilets for gods sake.

 

[appleskin]

It was a male name, there was no chance of misgendering. I did rant a bit at the xmas do so this may be a case of my colleague coming across for the first time and going 'found one!' but I must be careful - I like my job lol

 

[Vanelope]

View attachment 1143729

Some things my body did I didn't consent to:

Got older than 25
Bleeds once a month
Developed a (thankfully currently mild) chronic illness

In other words you were being a super dramatic teenager. So emo. You grow out of it, puberty is supposed to suck, it has a horrible name for a reason.

 

[bananabutter]

I really hate how the narrative of “women needing their own space” means “I don’t think transwomen don’t deserve to be safe”

I think everyone (male, female whatever) deserves to have access to safe spaces and facilities should they be needed. I just don’t understand why women should have to sacrifice theirs. If trans people do not believe the appropriate services and spaces are in place for them, then I believe the onus is on them to create them (just like women had to!!)

 

[holliebollie]

Exactly Banana. Women are not there to soak up the issues that males are having when they decide to dress up as women for the day.

 

[judgejohndeed]

What a shame that so many of us feel this way about D&I in the workplace. With my tinfoil hat on I'm sceptical that it could be an unintended consequence that those of us who have grown up/remain disadvantaged in some way are being shut out of these discussions in favour of generally very privileged women/men once more.

 

[Glortard]

View attachment 1143729

Some things my body did I didn't consent to:

Got older than 25
Bleeds once a month
Developed a (thankfully currently mild) chronic illness

When I was 14 people just lied about having a girlfriend but they stayed up their gran's bit so you would not know them. Now its getting blind drunk every night at 14.......the tall tales really have come a long way

 

[judgejohndeed]

View attachment 1143729

Some things my body did I didn't consent to:

Got older than 25
Bleeds once a month
Developed a (thankfully currently mild) chronic illness

Funny, isn't it, that TRAs understand the concept of consent when it's something stupid like 'I didn't consent to my body performing its natural and normal function' but not when it's women saying 'I don't consent to being forced to see naked men when I'm changing' etc. This double standard really does my head in.

 

[Mel Donte]

Saw this tweet by Jack Monroe and I’m confused how you can identify as trans and non binary at the same time? I thought trans meant you identified as one sex or the other and non binary was you didn’t identify as either?
View attachment 1142559

The way I've seen it explained is that being transgender means identifying as a different gender to the one you were assigned at birth. So as Jack wasn't assigned non binary at birth she is trans.

I have wondered what that will mean for children who are currently being raised as non binary. If they end up being cis will they technically be trans?

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

The way I've seen it explained is that being transgender means identifying as a different gender to the one you were assigned at birth. So as Jack wasn't assigned non binary at birth she is trans.

I have wondered what that will mean for children who are currently being raised as non binary. If they end up being cis will they technically be trans?

She's trans, non-binary and AFAB. Can't ditch female entirely because JM wants all the oppression points she can get, even if it means circumventing the belief system.

 

[holliebollie]

AFAB is usually used for actual intersex people isn’t it, who have been ASSIGNED a sex as it’s not clear? Like the awful periods back in 60s/70s maybe when someone would be ‘chosen’ to be a girl but actually had male chromosomes? I don’t know enough about it but I’m pretty sure it’s offensive to use AFAB for anything T/NB based?? Your sex is observed (I saw my daughter clearly in the 3D scan and knew what sex she was), not given to you by anyone.

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

This is a bit random but does anyone else just feel a bit miserable about anything to do with 'diversity and inclusion' at work now? I used to be so passionate about D&I at work back when it was about more than just calling men 'she' and women with short hair 'they'. I actually dread anything about D&I coming up now because it's so blinkered and tedious, I can't remember the last time a D&I event focused as much on disabled people, or people from disadvantaged backgrounds, or women (in the real sense of the word) or even ethnic minorities. It's always about 'inclusive language' etc these days and to be honest even if you buy into the balls (which obviously I don't) I feel like it's so overdone and boring anyway? It's absolutely bizarre the power and attention this particular group have obtained tbh.

Ever since I watched Benjamin Boyce's documentary on the Evergreen College Cult of Intersectionality, I get very anxious about all the EDI stuff in case it's of the same ilk. I don't want trauma from work turning into a Mao-like cultural revolution thank you very much.

 

[Mel Donte]

AFAB is usually used for actual intersex people isn’t it, who have been ASSIGNED a sex as it’s not clear? Like the awful periods back in 60s/70s maybe when someone would be ‘chosen’ to be a girl but actually had male chromosomes? I don’t know enough about it but I’m pretty sure it’s offensive to use AFAB for anything T/NB based?? Your sex is observed (I saw my daughter clearly in the 3D scan and knew what sex she was), not given to you by anyone.

I haven't heard that intersex people find it offensive when AFAB/AMAB is used for people outside of their community. I'll have to do some digging.

I think my take would be that you are assigned a gender at/before birth in that your sex is observed and you are then raised with varying amounts of gendered expectations based on that sex. Idk, I'm pro trans whilst being sceptical about the idea of gender. It's tricky!

 

[holliebollie]

Yes I would agree- sex is seen and noted, not ‘assigned’ as such but gender is assigned to you with the sudden pink or blue pigeonholes and on it goes for life. The stereotypes and expected roles on both sexes from birth til death, sadly!

interesting re the AFAB thing, I saw it somewhere on fb. I saw it as some TRAs are now ‘co-opting’ it to make it seem like their sex has nothing to do with them?! If that makes sense? When of course, there are no evil doctors (these days) forcing you to be the opposite sex at birth when you were ‘meant to be’ (not possible) male/female.

 

[fizzyjerk]

What if your parents had a gender reveal party?! You wouldn't have been assigned anything at birth then would you?!

Make it make sense!