Gender Discussion #16

[emmer_moans]

For a bit of light relief, watch this. It's ridiculous but the last 30 seconds are complete gold.

I managed 2 mins and had to stop. Interesting how they were not sure of the "allowed" terms themselves Definitely scared to get it "wrong" there. If someone asked me to play guess the gender game at work I would just go home.

Edit, wait, I just watched the end and they admitted gender is b.s.

 

[Luisa18]

and also imagine you as an ( I assume non trans person) went to a trans group, would you be included? Obvioulsy things that are blatently dicriminatory are different - i.e. excluding certain sexes or races) but as you have said, so many things are about experience rather than just "identity" In the end women are going ot have to start groups which are called something like "people born with vaginas who..." so we can have our own spaces

Simples. XX chromosome havers only. Now try and scream discrimination.

 

[Notworthy]

Another thought I had about groups and who is included/excluded.

There are many groups where legally no one is excluded, but by defintion it's for specific people. For example, a menopause support group. You wouldn't want young women who aren't experiencing menopause in that group. Because what would they offer? Nothing. They'd potentially disrupt or derail the conversation. If there was a menopause support group and a 20-year-old rocked up and said no, I haven't got early menopause, just hear for the chat, I think the group would be right to question her motives and ask her to leave. I don't think people would be supportive of the young woman. She would be seen as a bit of weirdo unless she could give a really good reason for wanting to be there. Now if a 50-year-old transwoman turned up, why would it be different to question why she's there? She's not experiencing menopause. But no doubt would it be seen as transphobic.

It's the double standards that get me.
[/QUOTE]
I'm going to disagree there. As a menopausal woman, I've learnt so much about my body and I'd love for younger women to actually understand the menopause. I was actually in the process of sorting out a talk with an expert aimed at women that were a lot younger as it catches so many women out due to the myriad of symptoms. I've actually discovered during menopause that the chronic knee problems I suffered at school that prevented me competing at higher levels in netball were hormonal as the exact same issue has returned with Peri.

 

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

I managed 2 mins and had to stop. Interesting how they were not sure of the "allowed" terms themselves Definitely scared to get it "wrong" there. If someone asked me to play guess the gender game at work I would just go home.

Edit, wait, I just watched the end and they admitted gender is b.s.

I had to rewatch the ending three times because I was like



I'm going to disagree there. As a menopausal woman, I've learnt so much about my body and I'd love for younger women to actually understand the menopause. I was actually in the process of sorting out a talk with an expert aimed at women that were a lot younger as it catches so many women out due to the myriad of symptoms. I've actually discovered during menopause that the chronic knee problems I suffered at school that prevented me competing at higher levels in netball were hormonal as the exact same issue has returned with Peri.
[/QUOTE]
No, I get that. I'm not saying other people should never hear a talk about the menopause, but I think specific support groups, where you share what you are going through, those are by definition only for the people going through whatever it may be. I went to an antenatal group. It would have been weird as duck to have women there that weren't pregnant. We were all talking about sleepless nights, painful boots, how everyone has sn opinion on your diet, what names to choose. We were swapping maternity clothes and discussing where to get good cheap strollers.

I haven't hit the menopause yet and I would absolutely attend a workshop or talk on what to expect, but I don't think a regular support group for women experiencing it right now would be the place for me. What would I add?

 

[adult human female]

Yes a talk/discussion/lesson is a free for whoever wants to learn, support group is just for those needing the support IMO

Trans people just need to except they ARE other. They will never be what they want to be, its impossible, therefore if you choose this life restrictions apply.

 

[Whatevesmate]

Good to see the BBC covering the University of Sussex debacle. Might be wishful thinking but it seems like the tide may be turning, at long last:
BBC News - University of Sussex backs professor in free speech row

University of Sussex backs professor in free speech row

Anonymous protesters called for Professor Kathleen Stock to be fired for her views on gender identity.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[weeweegie]

Good to see the BBC covering the University of Sussex debacle. Might be wishful thinking but it seems like the tide may be turning, at long last:
BBC News - University of Sussex backs professor in free speech row

University of Sussex backs professor in free speech row

Anonymous protesters called for Professor Kathleen Stock to be fired for her views on gender identity.

www.bbc.co.uk

“Universities have long had to deal with highly contentious debates on campus, but few have matched the ferocity around gender identity issues.
Privately, many vice chancellors say this is the most difficult issue on campus they have had to manage.”

Speaks volumes!

 

[Vee6]

A breastfeeding help group should not have men in it full stop. Even dads should wait outside because women need to feed in peace. If anyone turned up without a baby i would be suspicious. The first time I gave birth I was trying to start feeding and the midwife - and older woman - not the one who delivered my baby - grabbed my boob and tried to shove it in her mouth. I was too shocked to even react but felt very unhappy about it. I was ready for someone to try that second time round so I could put them in their place - but thankfully no one did.

Years ago on a nursing placement I went along with a Heath visitor to a breast feeding group. I hated it. I felt so out of place, I was told to make conservation with the ladies but I had nothing to say. I was about 20, knew nothing about babies or breast feeding and had nothing to offer them in terms of knowledge. Was tedious. No one should be there unless they are breast feeding or a professional.

 

[Cocobaby09]

Completely off topic, I’m away to Manchester with my OH. Starting to see how women go to prison for stabbing their men now that I’m in a hotel room with him and no escape from the relentless snoring I’m exhausted but can’t get a wink. Pray for me tattlers

 

[Vanelope]

Good to see the BBC covering the University of Sussex debacle. Might be wishful thinking but it seems like the tide may be turning, at long last:
BBC News - University of Sussex backs professor in free speech row

University of Sussex backs professor in free speech row

Anonymous protesters called for Professor Kathleen Stock to be fired for her views on gender identity.

www.bbc.co.uk

Interesting they have framed it as free speech row not transphobia row

 

[rosemarina]

That concerns me a bit.

 

[ejej123]

This thread is absolutely spot on

 

[Slothgang]

This thread is absolutely spot on

'A lot of time spent defining your own boundaries while ignoring everybody elses' .. says it all!

 

[Vanelope]

This thread is absolutely spot on

I think I’m glad I don’t know what an enneagram is

 

[jordishaw]

I had completely given up on The Guardian following the WiSpa coverage, have only just caught up with this and can now see why they were being picketed last week. I mean, it's not brilliant and not an apology, but it's a significant backtrack from where they were? (And the reaction is ample confirmation that nothing less than abject, 100% uncritical 'support' is regarded as treachery by the side that really isn't interested in debate at all)

Finn Mackay: the writer hoping to help end the gender wars

The sociologist and feminist campaigner believes it is possible to champion both women’s and trans rights. Can their new book help define some common ground?

www.theguardian.com

Also, if you definitely completely hate Pose and Janet Mock, this probably won't change your mind or interest you, but I found this quite thoughtful. I think there are differences between old school transexuals (the kind women are thinking of when they tick that 'support' box on surveys) and the recent crop of autogynephiliac twitter activists - which is possibly why the TRAs are so very committed to rewriting / transing recent LGBT history?

“To Live in the World, and Not to Hide”: An Interview with Janet Mock

The writer, television presenter, and activist speaks candidly about her youth, the challenges of reporting on her own life, and her struggle to find freedom in her body.

www.newyorker.com

(PS - I can completely understand why people do it, but I feel quite uncomfortable with commenting on people's physical appearance and presentation myself. Just saying that I think Janet Mock would probably 'pass' with ease)

 

[judgejohndeed]

I’m actually quite glad they’re calling the Stock incident a free speech row, in my opinion that’s exactly what it is. She isn’t transphobic, she’s very respectful in her writing about the trans issue, and she uses appropriate forums for her views. Trying to get an academic fired for having a controversial or even unpopular view is about free speech at its core. It’s really inconsequential what that view is. I used to work in a field where there were often topics considered to be controversial and papers came out that had everyone up in arms, at no point was anyone demanding the authors were sacked though. So for me the kind of ‘umbrella issue’ as it were is free speech at universities, on this occasion it’s about trans stuff, but what will be next if universities yield to this kind of bullying? This cannot be contained to the trans issue, it’s much broader than that. If they give into these students then academia as we know it has had it.

 

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

I’m actually quite glad they’re calling the Stock incident a free speech row, in my opinion that’s exactly what it is. She isn’t transphobic, she’s very respectful in her writing about the trans issue, and she uses appropriate forums for her views. Trying to get an academic fired for having a controversial or even unpopular view is about free speech at its core. It’s really inconsequential what that view is. I used to work in a field where there were often topics considered to be controversial and papers came out that had everyone up in arms, at no point was anyone demanding the authors were sacked though. So for me the kind of ‘umbrella issue’ as it were is free speech at universities, on this occasion it’s about trans stuff, but what will be next if universities yield to this kind of bullying? This cannot be contained to the trans issue, it’s much broader than that. If they give into these students then academia as we know it has had it.

I agree with you 100%. I've changed my stance on free speech so much in recent years. I used to be all 'yeah, free speech but not free from consequences.' And 'we need to be all kind to each other. ' I still think that to an extent, but kindness has no real place in academic discourse. It's not about being kind or unkind, it's about trying to understand our world and getting to the truth of something. Respectful disagreement is healthy. We need people who challenge our views and who have a different perspective. A consequence to someone's speech you disagree with should be to challenge it. Not to ask for them to be sacked or intimidate them.

 

[Icing _on_ the_cake]

Edit, wait, I just watched the end and they admitted gender is b.s.

If I said that I'd be tarred and feathered! If it's BS, why are they centering their entire lives on it?!

Also, sadly I didn't hear about this protest till Thursday night so I wasn't able to go, but there was a protest outside the Lancet offices and outside Labour offices. The dinosaur costumes could be an excellent way of going to demos and staying anon.

Dino Day Out

So – if your MP calls you a dinosaur because you don’t choose to hand over your rights, it’s actually pretty handy as he chose a commodity that can be obtained cheaply and quickly…

pamisherwood.wordpress.com

 

[judgejohndeed]

I agree with you 100%. I've changed my stance on free speech so much in recent years. I used to be all 'yeah, free speech but not free from consequences.' And 'we need to be all kind to each other. ' I still think that to an extent, but kindness has no real place in academic discourse. It's not about being kind or unkind, it's about trying to understand our world and getting to the truth of something. Respectful disagreement is healthy. We need people who challenge our views and who have a different perspective. A consequence to someone's speech you disagree with should be to challenge it. Not to ask for them to be sacked or intimidate them.

Exactly. There's two distinctions to be made here I think. First is that 'consequences' needs to be proportionate to whatever the free speech was - so in this context, I would say the appropriate 'consequences' for Stock to face are e.g. other academics responding to the arguments in her papers and disagreeing with her. And I mean, I'm 100% sure she would expect that and find it reasonable, because as an academic, you WANT people to engage with your work anyway. She's also offered to be part of debates on this issue before, so she isn't scared of disagreement. The appropriate consequence for publishing unpopular academic work is not to be hounded out of your job.

The second is between free speech and hate speech. There's a lot of talk about this on academic Twitter atm. I can't find the link right now, but someone's done a brilliant thread contrasting David Miller (anti-semite academic) with Kathleen Stock and how they're very different (Miller was terminated and rightly so IMO). Again I can't find the link, but someone in Brighton has been going round putting up stickers with quotes from Stock's Twitter and work where she says for example, she uses the pronouns students ask her to, she treats trans students with respect, 'trans people exist and we should get over it' etc etc. As someone else pointed out earlier, Stock is really quite moderate in this debate and I don't think anything she has said constitutes hate speech. The problem is that some of these students now think literally hearing any views they don't like is a hate crime and this is where I feel academia is badly failing students. You do not go to university to live in an echo chamber for 3 years, you go to have your own views challenged by not only other people but by yourself, to learn how to think critically and make strong arguments, not to simply shy away from views you dislike.

I really don't know how we're at the point that students feel entitled to only hear things they like to hear, but I've seen many hypothesising that the increase in fees has resulted in some kind of commercial environment where students feel entitled to 'demand' lecturers they don't like are sacked etc. I'm sure there was a poster saying something like 'we don't pay 9k a year to have transphobes in our uni' or whatever. Sorry for another essay on this - will actually shut up about it now!!

 

[Vanelope]

Exactly. There's two distinctions to be made here I think. First is that 'consequences' needs to be proportionate to whatever the free speech was - so in this context, I would say the appropriate 'consequences' for Stock to face are e.g. other academics responding to the arguments in her papers and disagreeing with her. And I mean, I'm 100% sure she would expect that and find it reasonable, because as an academic, you WANT people to engage with your work anyway. She's also offered to be part of debates on this issue before, so she isn't scared of disagreement. The appropriate consequence for publishing unpopular academic work is not to be hounded out of your job.

The second is between free speech and hate speech. There's a lot of talk about this on academic Twitter atm. I can't find the link right now, but someone's done a brilliant thread contrasting David Miller (anti-semite academic) with Kathleen Stock and how they're very different (Miller was terminated and rightly so IMO). Again I can't find the link, but someone in Brighton has been going round putting up stickers with quotes from Stock's Twitter and work where she says for example, she uses the pronouns students ask her to, she treats trans students with respect, 'trans people exist and we should get over it' etc etc. As someone else pointed out earlier, Stock is really quite moderate in this debate and I don't think anything she has said constitutes hate speech. The problem is that some of these students now think literally hearing any views they don't like is a hate crime and this is where I feel academia is badly failing students. You do not go to university to live in an echo chamber for 3 years, you go to have your own views challenged by not only other people but by yourself, to learn how to think critically and make strong arguments, not to simply shy away from views you dislike.

I really don't know how we're at the point that students feel entitled to only hear things they like to hear, but I've seen many hypothesising that the increase in fees has resulted in some kind of commercial environment where students feel entitled to 'demand' lecturers they don't like are sacked etc. I'm sure there was a poster saying something like 'we don't pay 9k a year to have transphobes in our uni' or whatever. Sorry for another essay on this - will actually shut up about it now!!

As far as uni goes it’s exactly like that. A friend was high up in running a uni and because of the fees the students expect so much to be catered to, and for all their demands to be met. The balance of power is completely off as students should have input, but they are there to be educated by people who, by definition, know better.