Gender Discussion #16

[Peachsquish]

In the Telegraph

 

[Platformcrocs]

I cannot stand "assigned female at birth" and the fact that some women are using it to describe themselves.

I wasn't "assigned" anything at birth. My sex is female. I don't know if it's just me but I find it such an odd way of describing someone - a midwife doesn't look at a newborn baby and say right, I'm assigning this one as female. They just simply ARE

 

[cookiemunchmunch]

Hi! I hope you don't mind me posting here. A bit of a rant incoming; sorry. I've been looking for somewhere to blurt this out.

I've been looking for a healthy discussion thread like this for a long time now. In general I felt lost because as soon as anyone has any criticism or critical thought against this subject, you're labelled a TERF/transphobic/racist(??) when I certainly don't see myself that way. When did things become so simplistic/black and white anyway? Everyone is so sensitive nowadays and everything is offensive. I'm relieved to have found this thread with so many reasonable arguments being made.

After reading "Woke" by Titiana McGrath I was positively reassured that not everyone is part of this woke movement and that there are still reasonable people that are open to critical thinking and not really into thinking that the world needs to be this perfect fairy tale where all our personal triggers need to be approached with caution. I find it ridiculous how there are trigger warnings for the most arbitrary things at times. Trigger warning to me used to mean things like blinking/flashing lights and so on. I have my personal triggers but I don't expect everyone to pander to my own personal needs. The most recent example I can think of is pregnancy. Until I became pregnant I had this irrational fear that I was infertile and couldn't get pregnant (a fear based on literally nothing, hence irrational) and seeing women getting pregnant seemingly left right and centre bothered me, but I didn't expect women to stop reproducing or sharing their journeys online. It was up to me to make sure I didn't interact with these posts so that for example the Instagram algorithm wouldn't misinterpret this as interest = show me more posts. I am almost 30 years old so I'm used to growing up in a world where you need to just suck it up and get on with it, and that the world owes you nothing.

Now that I am pregnant (still early days, still don't know the sex), I am already terrified of my child being exposed to gender politics at a very early age, even though it will be quite a while until my child is exposed to the greater world out there. I will do my best to make sure my child is raised in a similar way to the way my parents raised me; to be a critical thinker and a generally smart person in the sense that you don't immediately believe anything that you see or hear. But I still can't help but feel so worried about the outside world and what it will do to children at an impressionable age. I can't help but feel so overwhelmed already, I just hope that the world will be a different place once we do cross that bridge.

One thing that I was trying to find some critical thinking about was about the subject of trans women and their supposed periods. In this thread I've encountered posts from trans women going through "pregnancy" and "periods". Since my early 20's I've suffered painful periods, they've become more manageable in the past 2 years or so thankfully. But before, when not taking birth control, the first day always consisted of me vomiting due to the intense pain and nausea I would get from the painful cramps. I've been hospitalised twice because of it as well, so it's no fun to say the least. Anyway, one day on my period I found a post from a MtF trans woman on Reddit asking about her "period". She was feeling cramps and was "hormonal" every 4 weeks or so. She was listing a lot of the stereotypes of a woman on her period to be honest. The responses were just reaffirming her beliefs. Those that weren't had to tread extremely lightly and put "I'm sorry if this comes across as transphobic, if it does I'll remember to do better" or something to that respect, just for asking questions. And I was just thinking, it is literally impossible for you to get a period, no matter how much HRT you go through. I'm sorry but you simply don't shed the lining of your uterus because you don't have one, nor a cervix, or any female reproductive organs. This is plain fact, and that it's automatically being regarded as transphobic is something that I just can't wrap my head around. You weren't born with it, so it's just fact that no matter how much you do, there are certain things that you won't be able to experience, sorry. I still don't think it's transphobic to say that at all, it's plain fact with no emotion behind it whatsoever.

The same with the word "woman/women" being inherently transphobic as well, I don't understand. MtF want to be women because they say that that's how they've always felt and identified as. Well then, brilliant. That's fine. Then you feel that you are a woman. Why does that have to mean that it's exclusionary language, if you in fact feel that you are a woman? Even if you identify as non binary but your biological sex is that of a woman, then who the fuck cares what the label of that centre says? If you need to go see a gynaecologist then just go for fuck sake. I genuinely don't understand this argument, but as so many have said already, it seems like it's only things labelled for women that seem to need a change; I don't see FtM trans men going on this tyrade for things labelled for men.

Anyways - I'll keep reading in (mostly) silence. Thanks for reading my rant

 

[jordishaw]

[/SPOILER]er: 238596"]
The whole dead naming thing is clearly a BIG ISSUE because it is a constant reminder of their true biological sex. The fact its called dead naming is fucking absurd. Its their birth name, FFS.

I find the term "dead naming" deeply offensive and upsetting, to be honest it was the first thing that made me question the whole liberal left trans rights narrative given how "words can be literal violence". CW: bereavement

Spoiler: loss

I have a dead child, when I hear her name the emotions are very complicated. I find it hard to say sometimes, but I also hate it when it feels like other people are avoiding mentioning her? That doesn't make sense, but grief doesn't have to make sense. The "dead naming" narrative simultaneously acknowledges that someone has been lost but refuses parents part of a normal mourning process.

 

[adult human female]

Not sure if someone has posted this

Dave Chappelle sides with JK Rowling and slams the trans community

During his sixth Netflix special, The Closer, Chappelle, 48, joked about Rowling's argument that transgender women were not actually women and were a threat to her identity.

www.dailymail.co.uk

"Women see transwomen the way black people see black face"

This 100% how after a long long history of female oppression is it not the same. How? Women have historically been beaten, used as slaves, objects, given no rights and so on by men. How is it not the same as blackface?

 

[HoGi]

Been thinking this morning about trans people and dementia.

Wondering if there is much studied about it. I doubt it as dementia is under researched as a whole.

But was just pondering about how dementia affects them and whether they "forget" they have transitioned etc or how they react to their mutilated bodies etc

Perhaps it is too early to tell as this new wave of TRAs are too young to be affected yet.

My dad died from dementia this time 2 years ago. And I was remembering some of the things the dementia made him forget that were fundamental parts of his personality. For example he hated Christmas and presents etc. he thought it was a massive waste of money (stemmed from his very poor childhood) but as his dementia progressed he bloody loved it! Picking out a tree, unwrapping presents, lots of fairy lights etc. That's just one example and sorry for the ramble, just thinking out loud really.

ETA I suppose the point I am trying to make is how much is genuinely dysphoria and how much is a personality trait. And therefore how much is it affected by dementia.

 

[Meangirl815]

I'm in a few menopause support groups on fb.
Last week a women posted a beautiful poem she had written about menopause and all the weird and wonderful changes it creates etc etc very moving piece of work.

In the comments - 'beautiful poem, but can i point out we don't all identify as women'

I eye rolled so hard i gave myself a migraine

 

[Brigitjonesbuttcheek]

I think John Lewis have got it spot on. Men are allowed to do what ever they want and reck up the place as long as it's in the name of trans. Women have to watch on quietly as their stuff is taken and destroyed, and their happiness is taken from them, then they'll be left to pick up the pieces and clean up the mess.

 

[petitspois]

Before this bunch became radical and nasty I was quite sympathetic to gender dysphoria and to trans people in general. That's all they have done is now make me completely unsupportive of even the concept of being trans at all.

 

[Whatevesmate]

A friend sent me this

 

[SqualorVictoria]

It's the obsession with 'inclusion' that gets me. Not everything needs to be inclusive or for everyone. I wouldn't join a group for Jewish people or a mothers group or a group for Spanish speakers. It just feels like it's perfectly acceptable for every other demographic to have things just for themselves but women are the exception to that rule. We can have nothing.

And as for transwomen talking about when they were a 'girl', this really gets me- an Irish TiM who was once an altar boy as a kid said that he sees himself as the first altar girl in his school. Fuck. Right. Off.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I would be OK with a post-op M to F using women's spaces as I would see little threat (that might not be true of course) but I still don't see them as women and never will. They have had testosterone in their body for years, have grown up in a patriarchal society as male and reaped those benefits. Not to downgrade women to a list of complaints and causes but how would they join in in a conversation about periods, sexism, menopause, work life balance, caring for kids alongside elderly parents, etc. They just don't have the same lived experiences as women.

This is the exact same for me. I don't mind those who have medically transitioned in female spaces because I don't feel they pose much of a threat. I don't consider them women, but I don't find them risky in the way I would an 'in tact' man who self IDs.
The thing that really annoys me is as you say, groups for certain lived experiences where trans people will never have that and still want to muscle in. I actually find that somehow worse than the toilet or changing room issue, because it just stinks of arrogance and forcing themselves on us. That reddit post someone posted a while back for example where a 35 ish year old man decided he was female, then his female artist friend was holding an event for survivors of rape/assault. He wasn't invited and was yelling about transphobia. He hadn't been raped or assaulted, and he wasn't female, but was incensed with rage at not being invited. That kind of thing really boils my blood. I do wonder how many of these people were childhood weirdos, didn't have many friends, feel like they've been left out etc etc. Seems like a lot of them desperately want to feel included and part of something and the way the TRA mob is these days, you get full acceptance without even having to take any steps to medically transition. It's the perfect 'community' for people who feel socially hard done by.

 

[maytoseptember]

Professor Robert Winston just said you can’t change biological sex on Question Time

 

[nothanksbabes]

I note that when this lot start talking about 'intersectional feminism' they almost always exclude class.

I'm a left-wing, working class feminist being told I'm privileged by noisy online activists who have often lived decades of their lives receiving all tbe privileges that come with being a middle class white man. But I'm the oppressor. Cool story.

 

[AlanBanan]

Probably a bit off topic - but has anyone here ever been come onto by a man, and when you say no you’re now suddenly fat and ugly? But a second ago you weren’t fat and ugly.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I’m actually quite glad they’re calling the Stock incident a free speech row, in my opinion that’s exactly what it is. She isn’t transphobic, she’s very respectful in her writing about the trans issue, and she uses appropriate forums for her views. Trying to get an academic fired for having a controversial or even unpopular view is about free speech at its core. It’s really inconsequential what that view is. I used to work in a field where there were often topics considered to be controversial and papers came out that had everyone up in arms, at no point was anyone demanding the authors were sacked though. So for me the kind of ‘umbrella issue’ as it were is free speech at universities, on this occasion it’s about trans stuff, but what will be next if universities yield to this kind of bullying? This cannot be contained to the trans issue, it’s much broader than that. If they give into these students then academia as we know it has had it.

 

[Ispyabudgetbeanblogger]

Another thought I had about groups and who is included/excluded.

There are many groups where legally no one is excluded, but by defintion it's for specific people. For example, a menopause support group. You wouldn't want young women who aren't experiencing menopause in that group. Because what would they offer? Nothing. They'd potentially disrupt or derail the conversation. If there was a menopause support group and a 20-year-old rocked up and said no, I haven't got early menopause, just hear for the chat, I think the group would be right to question her motives and ask her to leave. I don't think people would be supportive of the young woman. She would be seen as a bit of weirdo unless she could give a really good reason for wanting to be there. Now if a 50-year-old transwoman turned up, why would it be different to question why she's there? She's not experiencing menopause. But no doubt would it be seen as transphobic.

It's the double standards that get me.

 

[maytoseptember]

I still don't get how trans activism has gained so much traction. There are so many other instances where there is genuine, deep and systematic inequality to large groups (i.e women, people who don't have white skin) why do a bunch of - what look like - men dressed up as women hold so much sway?

It disgusts me.

I think it’s gained traction for two reasons.

1. Because it’s a men’s rights movement. Trans identified females are swept along with it, but they’re collateral damage. This movement has always been about men and not women.

2. Because it plays into the heart of liberal people who want nothing more than to feel like they’re the nicest, kindest, most enlightened, tolerant, broad-minded people in society. It’s so easy. All you need to do is pointlessly add your pronouns on work emails/social media, tweak your language a bit, and grandstand on social media about how unisex toilets “wouldn’t bother me”. Congratulations. You are such a good person

 

[maytoseptember]

Nothing makes me happier than knowing that Shiloh Jolie-Pitt is just a gender non-conforming kid and she was left alone to be herself. Pours water on the usual trans narrative about affirming kids because they’re definitely born in the wrong body

 

[Chani10]

Don't know if I'll be able to add much to the debate but it's so nice to find a place where people can talk without being attacked. This whole gender thing has tired me so much. Not being able to state the obvious is just pure madness.
I lost a couple of friends because I started sharing LGB content (I'm bisexual and being attacked by the T and the "Q" on a daily basis, what did they expect me to do?), so I obviously turned into a TERF. Goodbye to them!