The Archie Battersbee case

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I don't believe that she doesn't want the absolute best for her boy and that she loves him dearly, but she's being enabled by these people telling her that a chocolate cake lip balm might wake him up, or all these people that don't understand that the poor boy has died.

These enablers are dangerous. Time for them to stop and for the poor boy to be left to pass with respect and the dignity that he has left.
She is. But she’s also feeding them a totally different story to say the court documents. Some of the group admit they haven’t read the court documents. If you mention facts from the document you will be called a troll and banned.
Hollie to my knowledge has never ever said on the group that she accepts he will die. Or has died. And while I can understand that’s a huge thing for her to accept. I can’t understand why she tells the group things like he’s drooling, he’s giving the nurse a hard time, he’s crying, he can regulate His temperature not to mention the posts about how he was being starved and neglected by the staff. I loathe to say it but I think she likes the attention from them.
 
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Call me cynical and horrible, but if he does go into cardiac arrest and is then “left to die” will that be another case of him being mistreated and neglected? I can’t see a “win” here. Really struggling to understand what the family want, considering they currently want him resuscitated if he does go into arrest then I don’t see how a “natural death” will be possible without it leading to someone being to blame.
 
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My mother was on life support and we had to let her go.
They don't just "switch off " the machines.
They removed all non essential machinery and tubes just leaving the breathing bit.
Then they gradually reduced the oxygen until she gently slipped away.
It was very gentle and peaceful
 
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My mother was on life support and we had to let her go.
They don't just "switch off " the machines.
They removed all non essential machinery and tubes just leaving the breathing bit.
Then they gradually reduced the oxygen until she gently slipped away.
It was very gentle and peaceful
I’m sorry for your loss, and that you all had to go through that.
 
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Call me cynical and horrible, but if he does go into cardiac arrest and is then “left to die” will that be another case of him being mistreated and neglected? I can’t see a “win” here. Really struggling to understand what the family want, considering they currently want him resuscitated if he does go into arrest then I don’t see how a “natural death” will be possible without it leading to someone being to blame.
I don’t think mum does want a natural death, I think that is a line fed to them from the Christian life centre who have their own agenda here. I think mum wants him kept this way indefinitely because she thinks he might recover hence the posts about him drooling etc. I don’t know about dad as he hasn’t said much publicly,
 
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I found this. Hopefully this means he can pass peacefully.
They’ve been saying this for some time now. Hollie still spins it for her supporters because she knows their emotional investment comes from wanting to save her son’s life.

She won’t get the same eager support if they knew he is definitely going to die, it’s now a disagreement about whether it should be a planned or unplanned death.
 
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I think they need someone to sit down with them and go over his condition all over again because they aren’t getting it.
I would say things have been explained but she in particular, does not want to hear.
And these baying mobs/ armies in such tragic cases are no help whatsoever.
 
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My mother was on life support and we had to let her go.
They don't just "switch off " the machines.
They removed all non essential machinery and tubes just leaving the breathing bit.
Then they gradually reduced the oxygen until she gently slipped away.
It was very gentle and peaceful
People can and do have really good deaths if everyone is on board with it. There's so much that palliative care teams can do to make things very peaceful and comfortable for the individual and to help the family. I'm glad your mum had a peaceful and gentle death x
 
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47C6040A-3570-4A0F-8569-A8D0604EDDCF.jpeg


Grabbed this from DFA comments. What’s the difference between life-sustaining treatment and intensive care?
 
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View attachment 1408554

Grabbed this from DFA comments. What’s the difference between life-sustaining treatment and intensive care?
One of the ICU nurses may answer this better but my understanding is that life sustaining treatment is something that is continuing to keep his body 'working' (as much as it can be without a brain stem) whereas intensive care is actively trying to bring him back to life.
 
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I think that most people would choose to pass away peacefully with their loved ones around them over dying in an emergency panicked situation potentially without a chance for family members to say goodbye. I would much rather know I would be there to comfort my child and hold them, maybe read their favourite story.
 
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My mother was on life support and we had to let her go.
They don't just "switch off " the machines.
They removed all non essential machinery and tubes just leaving the breathing bit.
Then they gradually reduced the oxygen until she gently slipped away.
It was very gentle and peaceful
I am sorry for your loss, I am glad that your mum had a peaceful and gentle death.
May she rest in peace.
 
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I also think it's just such a difficult situation because it's just the parents voicing what they think their child would want. I doubt they have ever really discussed fully what Archie would want in a situation like this because you never expect it to occur. Even if they have for some reason, as you say it's not really life support when it's doing everything for him

I think the judge is entertaining the parents because it's the right thing to do in a way. They need to feel like they have also been heard and their views considered, but at the end of the day it's Archie's best interest that is being decided. The fact that the judge has said that the death would be chaotic and possibly less dignified says where that decision is going to go I think
The judge is entertaining the parents because there was A LOT wrong with the previous court case and they were entitled to appeal. Long story short, Archie’s legally appointed guardian (a social worker) ruined everything for the hospital with her arrogantly refusing to stay in her lane and do what she was supposed to do.

Firstly, Archie’s guardian decided after meeting Archie that he was “dead beyond doubt”. Legally, he is not dead until a court says so, and it was absolutely not her place to decide that. Her place was to be his advocate, and until he is legally dead, he is a party in the court proceedings.

On the basis that she decided he was dead, she encouraged the hospital trust to persue getting Archie legally declared dead. Until then, they had dropped this and instead were seeking getting his life support turned off on a “best interests” basis (then he would be declared dead afterwards).

The guardian also didn’t make a best interests report, which she was supposed to do. She didn’t bother because she took it upon herself to decide he was dead.

The judge concurred with the guardian and declared Archie dead. This is despite the Code being very clear as to how brain stem death should be declared, and this process not being able to be followed for Archie. This is also despite none of the clinicians who examined Archie declaring him dead. This is absolutely unprecedented, and in the last judgement when the parents won their right to appeal, the judge strongly advised against the courts ever declaring a person dead in this way.

The judge who had agreed with the guardian briefly considered Archie’s best interests, but the more recent judge said that it was understandable that the parents would not trust this decision because of the procedural mishap, and because the guardian didn’t make a bests interests report.

All parties agreed that his best interests should have been considered, (which the hospital initially wanted to do anyway before the guardian dissuaded them), which is why Archie’s parents won their right to appeal.

Archie has now been appointed a new guardian.

I am glad that the legal process is being followed properly. Being declared brain stem dead or dead is a very serious legal matter and it protects us all that it is treated with such thoroughness.

It’s worth remembering as well that the hospital trust took Archie’s family to court - not the other way round, as some people seem to think.
 
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The judge is entertaining the parents because there was A LOT wrong with the previous court case and they were entitled to appeal. Long story short, Archie’s legally appointed guardian ruined everything for the hospital with her arrogantly refusing to stay in her lane and do what she was supposed to do.

Firstly, Archie’s guardian decided after meeting Archie that he was “dead beyond doubt”. Legally, he is not dead until a court says so, and it was absolutely not her place to decide that. Her place was to be his advocate, and until he is legally dead, he is a party in the court proceedings.

On the basis that she decided he was dead, she encouraged the hospital trust to persue getting Archie legally declared dead. Until then, they had dropped this and instead were seeking getting his life support turned off on a “best interests” basis (then he would be declared dead afterwards).

The guardian also didn’t make a best interests report, which she was supposed to do. She didn’t bother because she took it upon herself to decide he was dead.

The judge concurred with the guardian and declared Archie dead. This is despite the Code being very clear as to how brain stem death should be declared, and this process not being able to be followed for Archie. This is also despite none of the clinicians who examined Archie declaring him dead. This is absolutely unprecedented, and in the last judgement when the parents won their right to appeal, the judge strongly advised against the courts ever declaring a person dead in this way.

The judge who had agreed with the guardian briefly considered Archie’s best interests, but the more recent judge said that it was understandable that the parents would not trust this decision because of the procedural mishap, and because the guardian didn’t make a bests interests report.

All parties agreed that his best interests should have been considered, (which the hospital initially wanted to do anyway before the guardian dissuaded them), which is why Archie’s parents won their right to appeal.

Archie has now been appointed a new guardian.

I am glad that the legal process is being followed properly. Being declared brain stem dead or dead is a very serious legal matter and it protects us all that it is treated with such thoroughness.

It’s worth remembering as well that the hospital trust took Archie’s family to court - not the other way round, as some people seem to think.
A hospital will always be the ones to take court action in these type of cases because of the disagreement between the parties. They need a court order to stop treatment due to parental responsibility.
 
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But whatever has happened legally, a boy is in intensive care with his necrotic brain falling into his spine. There is absolutely no chance that he will get better. There's no justification for keeping him artificially alive no matter what legal processes have or haven't been followed to the letter.

That's the bit that really scares me.
 
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A hospital will always be the ones to take court action in these type of cases because of the disagreement between the parties. They need a court order to stop treatment due to parental responsibility.
Was just about to reply with the same thing
 
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But whatever has happened legally, a boy is in intensive care with his necrotic brain falling into his spine. There is absolutely no chance that he will get better. There's no justification for keeping him artificially alive no matter what legal processes have or haven't been followed to the letter.

That's the bit that really scares me.
There is a justification, you just don’t agree with it. The parents want an unplanned death. I wouldn’t want that for my loved one. But grieving is highly individual.

Following legal proceedings to the letter is of utmost importance in a democratic society, wishing for some kind of kangaroo court because a certain outcome seems inevitable is short-sighted in the extreme.

If the Archie first guardian (and the judge) hadn’t made such a hash of everything, maybe Archie’s parents wouldn’t have been allowed to appeal.
 
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There is a justification, you just don’t agree with it. The parents want an unplanned death. I wouldn’t want that for my loved one. But grieving is highly individual.

Following legal proceedings to the letter is of utmost importance in a democratic society, wishing for some kind of kangaroo court because a certain outcome seems inevitable is short-sighted in the extreme.

If the Archie first guardian (and the judge) hasn’t made such a hash of everything, maybe Archie’s parents wouldn’t have been allowed to appeal.
What woeful parenting, insisting on pressing forward over legal semantics when she knows he's dead. Awful!!
 
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