The Archie Battersbee case

[super grateful]

This case fascinates me.

I’m a Neurological ICU nurse, so I care for people who are brain stem dead all of the time.

Firstly, the absolute hate towards nurses and doctors a) sadly doesn’t surprise me but b) is disgusting. I can’t imagine the hell those poor people are going through, just trying to provide care to that boy yet having everything they are doing being pictured / documented / pulled apart.

Secondly, all of these grief tourists are disgusting. The family do not need people “siding” with them and encouraging them.

Thirdly, we NEVER ask people to make the decision to “pull the plug” (I absolutely hate that saying by the way, there isn’t a plug. If there was then I’d have accidentally unplugged it multiple times). It’s 100% a medical decision, because no family member should have to live with the burden of knowing they made that call.

As you sensible people seem to be aware, your brain stem controls the important bits of your body. Breathing, blood pressure, temperature, etc. If your brain is super damaged and swollen, it will crush your brain stem and these functions will become impaired.

So when you are brain stem dead, you’ll need to be 100% mechanically ventilated and require very strong medications to support your blood pressure, which will affect your body in horrible ways. If the ventilator is stopped, your vital organs won’t be being perfused anymore, so there goes that heart beat that everyone is saying this poor boy has. Which is also being backed up by the strong medications.

I’ve also seen lots of posts about the hospital staff starving him and how much weight he has lost. That’ll be the result of him a) being dead and b) all his muscle mass reduction from being in bed for however many weeks. Also his gut isn’t absorbing the enteral feed due to, sorry for being so blunt, being dead. So pumping it into him really isn’t the most sensible thing to do. What aren’t the family getting here?

Also, even on the ventilator and strong medications to keep everything pumping nicely, he is still at risk of having an embolism or a cardiac arrest so sadly dying on the ventilator, which really isn’t dignified or pretty. And another reason to bash and sue the healthcare professionals I’m sure.

I’m aware I sound like a heartless cow but I just don’t get why they would put themselves through all this pain and suffering. It doesn’t seem like they are thinking of this poor boy anymore, it’s entirely self serving now. And becoming Christian so they’ll get everything funded by a Christian charity? Or at least that’s what it looks like, sorry.

Just could have all been over weeks ago, done with dignity and Grace, and they could be grieving and caring for one another like many many other families sadly have to do every day.

Also to add, “god is keeping him here” and such things get me. I’m from a catholic family so I get the gist, and I’m no way saying nurses / doctors / healthcare professionals are heroes or whatever, but is god the one drawing up drugs, doing non stop maths, working the ventilator, physically mobilsing the patient, running around for 13hrs, dealing with family drama etc. 🫢

 

[lastdis]

I think the mum just needs time to realise there no chance , my unborn baby had most of her brain missing, we was very nicely told thatit was me keeping her alive and once born she would pass away , dr said it would be kinder to me and baby to terminate. It took me weeks and many drs telling me to realise what was best. For a while I thought no they are wrong, I googled and never found a good outcome. The difference was I didn’t have do gooders in my head telling me the drs are wrong

 

[Lucymyers]

I'm local so it is on our local news as well as national news.

I never bought the story about a tiktok trend, tiktok made someone apologise for as it hasn't been proven it was anything to do with them.

There was a interview with the family the other day where they said they believe life starts from a heartbeat and he has a heartbeat so should be classed as alive. My response to that would be turn off the machines and see how long he lives then.

They have appealed the decision so he is still being ventilated at the moment while that goes through.

I think it is grossly unfair. They need to let the poor boy go

It was itv who apoligised.
Apparently hes attempted suicide before

I was going to start a post about this case. I have a lot of sympathy for the family but at this point they are thinking of their own best interests not that of the child they loved.
The Facebook group is made up of people who are ignorant, when people comment with anything factual, no matter how kindly they are attacked and the comment deleted
It’s feels awful to say but they are essentially appealing to have Archies dead and decaying body kept in hospital, cared for by staff who they are accusing of all sorts of disgusting things.

I absolutely agree re members of that group. I joined as i felt for the family especially mum. But as soon as u question anything they pounce on you trying to brain wash you with rubbish and then start harassing you over fb messanger

I read the court docs and realised the family are not giving out certain details to try and misled people i think.
Also mum changed her name due to her criminal record

Loves the limelight

 

[super grateful]

It seems the family’s hopes were initially raised by Southend hospital thinking that the London hospital Archie was transferred to could offer life-saving cranial decompression surgery. This surgery was never done. In the court judgements it says that it wasn’t done because Archie’s brain damage was too widespread. But on a human level I can totally understand the devastating effect of hopes being raised then dashed. I wonder if the hospitals failed to properly communicate that this surgery may not be possible.

Again, just from my own experience of currently working in a neuro ICU, we have patients transferred to us all the time for emergency surgery and when they get here the surgeons examine them further and decide they actually can’t operate. Before they arrive, the surgeons only have scans / verbal reports to go on so have to make a quick decision about whether or not the other hospital should quickly transfer them or not. And given he is so young they probably thought it was worth a shot. Transferring a critically ill person is a big deal and often they deteriorate further en route. Poor boy probably arrived, they did their own scans etc, checked his pupils, saw how much ventilation etc he was requiring and sadly decided he was beyond surgery.

It’s hard for the family because in their eyes they’re going to this other place to be saved and have everything fixed. But it’s just to be in the right place IF the chance of surgery IS an option. And I’m pretty sure that would have been communicated to them. Whatever anyone’s views on medical professionals, wherever they have come from, I’ve never met anyone who goes out of their way to snub a relative or leave them out of conversations / decision making and thinks they are better than anyone else, just has the relevant eduction and tools to make the correct and informed decisions.

They are asked why do the doctors say they don’t want to continue treatment, Ella answers that they say they don’t think it’s dignified, and that the staff feel uncomfortable treating him. If this is true, these are matters of personal opinion and I don’t think the personal feelings of staff should come into it. It’s inappropriate. The only valid reasons should be he definitely cannot survive and has no possible good experience of life (and probably no experience at all) and he’s artificially being kept alive.

I also don’t think the staff feeling “uncomfortable” is meant in the way you have interpreted it. It’s not that they don’t fancy it anymore. It’s not about the medical team at all, however their opinions must be taken into account as they are caring for him 24/7 and know that is medically best. There are many ethical and moral dilemmas to what is going on. Have you ever spent 13hrs administering medication to a decaying body knowing it’s not doing any good? Knowing it’s causing grief and trauma to the family? Knowing there is no “good” end goal for anyone involved is harrowing and ultimately just delaying the grieving process further. There is no dignity in that.

 

[WeepingCassandra]

This is incredibly snobby.

Everyone has the right to be involved in making informed decisions about their own bodies. Including working class people.

Oh come on now. If you’re not medically trained in any way you don’t have the knowledge of the treatment options, the options available, how to administer them, what the side effects might be (that they don’t tell you about on google), how difficult the treatment would be, what the quality of life impact is, I could go on. It’s not a class issue so don’t try and make it one.

If you’d like, feel free to change that sentence to Susan who has never worked a day in her life because Daddy’s trust fund pays for her lifestyle and she’s never needed to.

 

[GirlWithThePearlEarhole]

I’m a nurse who has worked in neurosurgery at The Royal London Hospital. It is a renowned centre of excellence and he is receiving world class care from a whole battery of highly skilled and caring people. Hollie Dance and her pig ignorant hangers-on make me sick.

 

[Pineapple glitter]

I can understand why Leah Betts parents released a photo of her (face) on life support and the purpose it served raising acute awareness of when drug taking goes wrong.
There's no reason I can think of why Archie's mother would need to release a picture of her 12 year old son in a nappy. Everyone is entitled to a dignified death.

 

[super grateful]

I disagree that people hero worship NHS staff (as an NHS staff who has experienced quite the opposite) and I do agree that medical professionals do make mistakes, as do engineers and postmen and drivers, etc. I however have never personally experienced cover ups and find, from seeing colleagues go through trials, that my regulatory body, the NMC, are quite harsh and strict (as they should be) when it comes to disciplinary action, unlike some others. But that’s just my experience.

Also regarding staff not coping and “being in the wrong job”, I feel a little personally insulted by this but hey, whatever. I deal with some really sad shit almost every shift, as it’s just the nature of the place I work. Sometimes I can deal with and empathise the situations well and then one day it all just gets a little much and I become a bit invested, or a patient / family dynamic / mechanism of injury reminds me of my own life and things just get to me. I might cry when a family member hugs me, I might sit out of one of the family chats and let a colleague do it whilst I compose myself, I might need a hug in the linen cupboard, but it doesn’t affect the care I give to that family and actually I think it enhances it - it means I am human and that I care. I have had many families say to me “we saw you wipe your tears when we said our goodbyes, thank you so much for caring for Mum like she was your own” etc etc. Being able to care for a patient and see them as a person aids your decision making and ensures you are seeing them for who they are, not just a job to do. It’s not just go in, put the drugs up, do what needs doing and go home. It’s are these drugs and interventions relevant, does this brain dead child need these? Are they helping him or are we torturing his body and his family?

I’ve lost my point. But basically it’s okay to care. It’s not “not coping”. And I hope those nurses, as all healthcare professionals should, have access to TRIM practitioners.

 

[Droosie123]

Mum has been on GB news or similar in the last 24hrs accusing the hospital of neglect. Just fuck off Hollie, I know you are grieving but stop insulting the highly trained and highly intelligent people providing exemplary care for your child. Try getting info from them rather than “Tasha/any other name” who has one GCSE and doesn’t know her arse from her elbow.
Pisses me off.

 

[stevenseagull]

Hollie also said this doctor was a founder of the Royal London hospital.

Which was founded in 1740.

They must be knackered!

 

[Thechubbymoaner]

I have been lurking on this thread a while and wanted to say something but it's hard to word it

Firstly, what a heart-breaking situation, so sad, that poor child and as much as an absolute tool that his mother is, I do feel for her, it must be horrendous.

So, my story- just over 4 years ago my husband used a fentanyl patch that wasnt prescribed to him for a slipped disc and it but him into such a deep sleep that he was unconscious..while unconscious, he vomited and breathed it in. I found him barely alike, the ambulance gave him an anti fentanyl medication and brought him around, but his lungs were so damaged they put him into a coma for 2 weeks to allow his lungs to heal and to ensure he was getting enough ventilation

Those 2 weeks were torture, he swelled up, flinched, responded, cried while in a coma, got infections, they couldnt regulate his breathing, his temperature rocketed and plummeted. It was a nightmare. He broke out in blisters all over where his skin was breaking down- that was after two weeks in an induced coma.

After those 2 weeks, he was allowed to regain consciousness. Thankfully, in spite of everything he had been through, he had few issues really- his brain function was the same and although his lungs were weak, they were ok. His mental health was a mess though, 4 years on he has night terrors, PTSD, hallucinations while awake while his brain tries to process what happens. He is on 4 types of antidepressant and antianxiolytic and has been through intense therapy. His muscles had, in 2 weeks of being in an induced coma, wasted to a point that they are only recovering now. Yes, he is back in work and we live a normal enough life on the surface, but he has been suicidal, is fragile and the whole incident wrecked him both physically and emotionally

That is after 2 weeks in a coma. And he had no brain damage and no long term actual life threatening physical issues after this.

If this poor child wasn't severely brain damaged by the events, after all those months being in a coma, he would be an absolute mess and would possibly never ever recover. The physical wasting away and the emotional trauma at that young age would ruin him. And you add the brain damage to that... it doesnt bear thinking about! i just think of the effects of 2 weeks on life support and induced coma and how that impacted a fit, healthy, stable man... this poor child.. as I said, it doesnt bear thinking about

The mother is right to let the poor kid go.. and everyone can talk about him flying with the 'angles' (sorry, couldnt resist...)

 

[sheleg]

I think it's not fair to criticise the mum (even though it is very hard not to judge her for her actions) because going through the sudden suicide of your young child must be one of the worst things that can happen to you.

Ten years ago I was faced with the decision to turn off my partner’s life support, or keep her alive with a catastrophic brain injury from which she would never recover. I know she wasn’t my child, but she was the woman I hoped to spend the rest of my life with. At no point did I considered prolonging her life (which was not a life - she was functionally brain dead), accusing the wonderful hospital staff of terrible things, or encouraging a circus of keyboard lunatics to rise up on social media to stoke my delusions.

 

[Cack Conroe]

Major red flags.

Had something bad been going on in poor Archie's life? I don't believe the Tiktok trend excuse.

He had ADHD, apparently severe enough that they couldn’t find a school that would accept him for several years.

On Archie’s own Tiktok account, he described himself as always depressed.

The night before the hanging, he was seen doing a trial run using his sister’s doorframe.

It’s a possibility that he just had inherently poor mental health. (I hope the family eventually realise the true blame lies in the terrible lack of mental health and ADHD services in most of this country). ADHD in particular would have made Archie impulsive and have poor emotional regulation. I’m an adult with ADHD, non-sufferers don’t realise how hard it is to live with.

There has been a lot of internet sleuthing on the mum, it turns out she changed her name because she has two convictions, one for actual bodily harm, and one for common assault. Her real name is Lisa Pittaway.

She is a pole dancing teacher (and has worked in the “gentlemen’s club”), since getting involved with Christians she has scrubbed all such content from her social media.

Archie had an MMA fight coming up, maybe he felt pressured.

 

[Gossngiggles]

I was going to start a post about this case. I have a lot of sympathy for the family but at this point they are thinking of their own best interests not that of the child they loved.
The Facebook group is made up of people who are ignorant, when people comment with anything factual, no matter how kindly they are attacked and the comment deleted
It’s feels awful to say but they are essentially appealing to have Archies dead and decaying body kept in hospital, cared for by staff who they are accusing of all sorts of disgusting things.

 

[kittenattack]

One of the reasons why I left nursing was because I couldn't deal with hostile, misguided relatives who had grossly unrealistic expectations. As tragic as it is, the focus of care needs to be centered around what's best for the patient. Keeping someone alive in a vegetative or comatose state with no realistic chance of a proper survival with a return to reasonable function is cruel.

The Christian people funding it are fools because Christianity doesn't dictate that medics should strive against all odds to maintain existence. Allowing a natural death is absolutely allowed, even for Catholics and Orthodox Christians. Pulling the plug isn't killing someone, it's allowing nature - God - to take its course.

Tragedies happen. Part of being a human is having to deal with these things. It's the price we pay for having higher consciousness.

There was a very interesting thread on Mumsnet about this case, but unsurprisingly it got pulled.

Mumsnet are totally neurotic about death related issues and topics. It's almost as though it's not part of life

 

[sheleg]

Archie is not a corpse. He is not legally nor physically dead. His brain is dead. Doing anything to his body is not legally nor physically desecration of a corpse. If it feels like it is due to his permanent loss of conscious, that is a valid personal feeling, but not relevant in determining the course of treatment unless it is your own loved one

Anti-abortion doctors are not forced to refer patients for abortions. But they must refer them back to other GPs. This prevents them from being forced to act against their morals, while not effecting access for patients.

This ought to be similar for any other case in which doctors may have ethical concerns that restrict access to care.

Undignified? Pointless? Upsetting? Maybe, these are subjective personal opinions and value judgements. Cruel? No, he is not capable of suffering.

It is not the place of doctors or nurses to centre their feelings and personal beliefs over that of the patient or family. It is so dangerous that this should be considered in court: that the personal ethical beliefs of staff should be a factor in whether to treat someone. Set aside Archie for a moment and bear in mind that our legal system works on using previous cases for authority. What if in a future case, they use the personal ethical beliefs of staff or their distress at having to do their job as a legal reason not to treat someone who debatably could benefit?

I’m sorry, but you do talk such a lot of utter bollocks.

 

[iieee]

It is so good to finally see people talking common sense about this case somewhere on the internet. I agree with all the above. He is already dead and I hope his mother can come to accept that. I also agree that it sounds like a suicide not a tiktok challenge.

There's been a lot of people commenting on news articles saying "any mother would do the same" and I think that must be very upsetting for parents who have had to make the decision to turn off life support.

 

[Weeder]

I understand why some people might feel the mother's actions are grief reactions and that she's in the worst place possible , but that doesn't mitigate her awful behaviour and the risks and strains she's putting other people under and the violation of a dead body she's insisting upon.

She must be out of her mind, but there's something extremely sinister about letting him exist like that.

I've looked after patients with difficult, aggressive and confrontational relatives, you find a way to cope and build a rapport, you give a lot of yourself in nursing. One of the reasons I think she's a complete narc is because she literally has no thought for anyone, not for Archie, not for her other kids, not for the nurses or the doctors, not for anything but herself. Archie will be a challenging patient mentally (they're violating a dead body) and physically and intellectually (ICU knowledge is beyond the simple mechanics of most nurses, they do chemical engineering, plumbing and electrics). She's there telling all and sundry he's being neglected in a death chamber, he's been starved and tortured and they're trying to steal his organs. This could be career ending for these nurses, or at the very least could have an enormous impact on them permanently.

If any of you have ever stepped foot in ICU you'll know the absolute vulnerability and brutality these patients face. They poo themselves, they need care even to clear the chest, every toenail and hair is cared for , they need to be turned and checked frequently, mouth and ear care is a must. That's the basics, they're doing this to a dead body. The patients look horrific, there's excretions and secretions and blood. Hollie isn't registering the shock people usually feel about the brutality of it.

Hollie thinks this is all ok, this is all justified behaviour so she can get her very confused point across. She's happy to leave her son like that, basically rotting, in order to fulfil her basic need for I don't know what.

Which brings me to my original point, which it's taken me this long to get to, bad things happen to bad people as well as good people. I don't see how calling Hollie out for what she is is unreasonable. Archie absolutely breaks my heart, he deserves better and many people who are calling out Hollie are doing so because they feel deeply that Archie's body is being used and exploited and it's very very upsetting and unethical.

 

[judgejohndeed]

I’m sorry, but you do talk such a lot of utter bollocks.

I was just about to write the same. As a medical lawyer and ethicist I've been reading these with nothing short of incredulity. The idea that the views of people who are literally trained to practise medicine with the utmost respect for medical ethics (dignity being one pillar of that) should be considered irrelevant is baffling. Those staff know that boy is dead, forcing them to perform futile interventions on him is not only 'upsetting', it goes against every ethical code they agree to uphold when they work in medicine. The views of some nutter mother who has, in my opinion, made it perfectly clear she understands neither the medical nor legal issues here, are the ones that I would consider irrelevant.

 

[Lalalemon]

It's all the utter nonsense about the doctors wanting him dead so they can harvest his organs as well.... they're not going to be any fit state to transplant at his point, plus they'd obviously need her permission to use them. The sheer stupidity of it all is mindblowing!