The Archie Battersbee case

[Merpedy]

Clearly a troubled kid. If he'd attempted suicide before, I wouldn't be leaving him alone for any length of time.

The problem has been that people are acting as though leaving him alone for an hour or less even in the house, though I’m sure I’ve seen speculation that her being in the house was a lie is some sort of crime

It sounds like his sister saw him practicing something and didn’t say anything or think twice about what she had seen until. I’d think there were definitely other signs that he was a troubled kid but people miss signs constantly as someone already said

It also didn’t sound like she just laughed the whole rabbit thing off. We don’t actually seem to know how that whole thing played out. If she had disciplined him ‘properly’ (whatever that entails) I doubt we’d hear about it because it’s the classic ‘my last interaction with that person wasn’t good’ thing that people get stuck on. She mentioned a vape incident before and didn’t go into detail on how she dealt with it either other than being disappointed and seemingly talking to him about it

 

[candyland_]

They are being overlooked for Archie’s sake. She would just keep sending this around in circles.

 

[candyland_]

It would take a cold hearted person to move on this quickly?

 

[Merpedy]

I don’t think we’ve heard anything from the father so this will be interesting

I was thinking earlier that it must be very distressing for any family who doesn’t appear to be directly involved in this. Even if they agree with Hollie, I wonder how they feel about everything being so public - especially the pictures

 

[acsunderland]

It was itv who apoligised.
Apparently hes attempted suicide before


I absolutely agree re members of that group. I joined as i felt for the family especially mum. But as soon as u question anything they pounce on you trying to brain wash you with rubbish and then start harassing you over fb messanger

I read the court docs and realised the family are not giving out certain details to try and misled people i think.
Also mum changed her name due to her criminal record

Loves the limelight

Holy shit those poor children

 

[kittenattack]

What do they mean he's fighting? They've been watching too much TV

 

[Purrrrrrr]

please excuse my ignorance what does IIRC mean

I think its "If I recall correctly"

 

[TwooTwooTwitTwitTwoo]

I feel like some of the criticism is too harsh. Mostly because logically we know that he's dead. If she doesn't or can't accept that then she clearly isn't in a good place.

That said, I don't understand the need to be in the public eye and her doing that happened really early on.

There's clear evidence that he's brain dead and that would have been the case from very early on. If someone is taken to hospital with (an essentially fatal) brain injury and everything done to save them fails, then that would usually reach conclusion (as in brain death confimed) in approx three days. There's a process of tests that are carried out. It seems unusual that this situation has been drawn out.

I think my original point was meant to be that his mother can't be that awful that it's about money now. She must be really struggling. She cannot be of sound mind fighting this. She can't be. The poor child is dead.

That said, I keep thinking of all the families that have gone through similar situations without feeling the need to create such a circus.

 

[TooFarScone]

I’m wondering how much his family are even there if they are running around dealing with the press and his court case.

I don't know why they go to court. I wonder if its just to get photographed

 

[MrsJones83]

Archie’s mum did have someone independent but the judge was a bit scathing in her June judgment

“ The final witness was Dr Shewmon from the US. A man of expertise and considerable standing, instructed by the parents, he made a statement dated 5th June 2022, the day before the final hearing started. I was grateful for his industry. An undoubted expert in the field, he explained how the standard for death differed in the UK to that in the US. The US used whole brain death test whilst the UK concentrated on the brain stem.

Dr Shewmon gave examples of children or young people who had been found brain dead but who had made some sort of recovery. He had written extensively about these occurrences.

Overall, I found his evidence interesting but where as in Archie’s case, the brain stem death test had not been able to be administered or relied upon, his evidence was not quite so relevant. Examples of ‘miracle’ recoveries again were not helpful. I noted that unsurprisingly he had not seen the scans in Archie’s case which showed a deterioration in the condition of his brain between 15th April 2022 and 31st May 2022. In all the circumstances, his evidence did not undermine the evidence I heard from the Archie’s treating clinicians as supported by the second opinions I read. The clinicians had immediate knowledge of Archie’s medical condition and were able to examine him, his notes and the scans, this put them in a far better position than Dr Shewmon.”

I posted this before, she did have someone on her “side” but unfortunately I think it was a bad choice

 

[Cack Conroe]

I disagree that people hero worship NHS staff (as an NHS staff who has experienced quite the opposite) and I do agree that medical professionals do make mistakes, as do engineers and postmen and drivers, etc. I however have never personally experienced cover ups and find, from seeing colleagues go through trials, that my regulatory body, the NMC, are quite harsh and strict (as they should be) when it comes to disciplinary action, unlike some others. But that’s just my experience.

Also regarding staff not coping and “being in the wrong job”, I feel a little personally insulted by this but hey, whatever. I deal with some really sad shit almost every shift, as it’s just the nature of the place I work. Sometimes I can deal with and empathise the situations well and then one day it all just gets a little much and I become a bit invested, or a patient / family dynamic / mechanism of injury reminds me of my own life and things just get to me. I might cry when a family member hugs me, I might sit out of one of the family chats and let a colleague do it whilst I compose myself, I might need a hug in the linen cupboard, but it doesn’t affect the care I give to that family and actually I think it enhances it - it means I am human and that I care. I have had many families say to me “we saw you wipe your tears when we said our goodbyes, thank you so much for caring for Mum like she was your own” etc etc. Being able to care for a patient and see them as a person aids your decision making and ensures you are seeing them for who they are, not just a job to do. It’s not just go in, put the drugs up, do what needs doing and go home. It’s are these drugs and interventions relevant, does this brain dead child need these? Are they helping him or are we torturing his body and his family?

I’ve lost my point. But basically it’s okay to care. It’s not “not coping”. And I hope those nurses, as all healthcare professionals should, have access to TRIM practitioners.

It's fine to care but it's not acceptable for the emotional needs of staff to be centered. They should not have a stake in this and I find it ridiculous that their "distress" from doing their job should be given any credence at all. These people see horrific injuries and tremendous pain on a regular basis and we are supposed to believe that caring for Archie - who is universally agreed to not be suffering - is somehow emotionally damaging them, to the point their precious feelings should be considered in court.

 

[cantthinkofaname2]

The projection of care should be, in my opinion, withdrawal of life sustaining treatment which would look like: removing all unnecessary lines and monitoring, stopping feeds (no idea why they are on), stopping fluid and vasopressors/inotropes, which will decrease BP/HR, stopping all medications (IV and enteral) and then taking the ETT (breathing tube) away. He is brain stem dead so unable to breathe for himself, so they may decide to stop the blood pressure increasing medications shortly after they take the breathing tube away, so that he doesn’t “die” as soon as they take the breathing tube away whilst the family aren’t immediately within reach as that isn’t a very nice memory for them. If someone isn’t already brain stem dead, some symptom control drugs might be started if required, but in this case I doubt they would be needed. But I don’t imagine this scenario happening, I think sadly he will deteriorate and deteriorate on the ventilator and die on the ventilator which should never happen as it’s just horrific, messy, undignified, uncontrolled and can be totally avoided. There is the chance for this to be so planned and turned into as nice a memory as it possibly can be.

Sorry for asking this, but intensive care medicine fascinates me, when of course it’s used for the correct purpose and it’s sadly been apparent for a while in Archie’s case that it’s not….. Would you say with the judge agreeing to the DNAR that it’s likely to be needed? So in which case the final judgment on Friday won’t be necessary?

This is an intriguing post…. Why the sudden change of heart on the hearings being made public?

 

[TooFarScone]

Is Mommy Dearest at court when there's really no need to be?

 

[Cack Conroe]

But whatever has happened legally, a boy is in intensive care with his necrotic brain falling into his spine. There is absolutely no chance that he will get better. There's no justification for keeping him artificially alive no matter what legal processes have or haven't been followed to the letter.

That's the bit that really scares me.

There is a justification, you just don’t agree with it. The parents want an unplanned death. I wouldn’t want that for my loved one. But grieving is highly individual.

Following legal proceedings to the letter is of utmost importance in a democratic society, wishing for some kind of kangaroo court because a certain outcome seems inevitable is short-sighted in the extreme.

If the Archie first guardian (and the judge) hadn’t made such a hash of everything, maybe Archie’s parents wouldn’t have been allowed to appeal.

 

[GalaxyGirl70]

I think they wanted it to be private so she didn't have to defend any potential change of heart to the barmy army.......

 

[Tui]

Has Jahi McMath now died or is she still kept at home?

She died, I think she lasted about 4 years in the community? There is a Wikipedia page.

Her case was interesting because she was declared legally brain stem dead in her home state of California, a death certificate was issued and then for some bizarre reason her body was released, on a vent,to her mother to transfer to a private hospital in another state where she was trached and had a PEG inserted. Awful.

 

[iieee]

It's very waffly and I'm struggling to understand what exactly they're trying to debate tbh.....................

Thank god it's not just me

 

[Leascarle]

I consider myself very intelligent but right up until I found this thread I had no idea he was already ‘dead’ I read coma and thought he just needed time

 

[candyland_]

They want more time according to the headlines I’ve been reading but they will never be satisfied.

 

[iLoveMeSomeCanoles]

Firstly, when the cardiac arrest comes, no amount of resuscitation attempts are going to provide a good outcome. You can’t resuscitate a corpse. Secondly, whatever happens from now onwards Hollie is going to claim that the hospital killed Archie. No amount of reasoning will make her think otherwise. For this reason alone I think a post-mortem will have to be carried out. Possibly even two as the family will not trust the outcome unless they choose, and fund, their own pathologist.

Also, resuscitation is brutal. Surely his body would not withstand it?

Oh well, that would be another way for them to claim the hospital killed him.

Re. Hidden cameras - I read a few years ago that in the US hospitals can place cameras in rooms when they suspect a patient/their family is er, tampering or similar to worsen their condition (I read a munchie thread on another forum). Not that I'm suggesting the family are doing anything in Archie's case, but it would be back up for the poor hospital staff in case they're accused of stuff. But I'm not sure if cameras are around in hospitals like that in the UK?