Shamima Begum

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Shamima was unhappy with her home life and followed her friend over. There doesn't seem to be much grooming or coaxing involved. She details it all in her documentary.
She was a 15 year old school girl. There is masses there about her still being a child who was far too easily influenced by the wrong kind of people! And if she was taken over to the middle east as a jihadi bride, thats still a form of sex trafficking. Taken to a war zone to provide sex, even via marriage to soldiers.

How on earth did a london schoolgirl get into a position where she was able to be radicalised like this? This to me is the most scary part of the whole story.

I haven't seen her documentary, She is in an odd position isnt she. The life she went out there to lead, has been proven to be an illusion, she is left stranded and friendless in a Syrian prison, without any way back to her old life. She is probably being forced to play up for the cameras to play up for the journalists, to play up for anyone who shows her any interest. Not a great situation for a 23 year old!
 
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She was a 15 year old school girl. There is masses there about her still being a child who was far too easily influenced by the wrong kind of people! And if she was taken over to the middle east as a jihadi bride, thats still a form of sex trafficking. Taken to a war zone to provide sex, even via marriage to soldiers.

How on earth did a london schoolgirl get into a position where she was able to be radicalised like this? This to me is the most scary part of the whole story.

I haven't seen her documentary, She is in an odd position isnt she. The life she went out there to lead, has been proven to be an illusion, she is left stranded and friendless in a Syrian prison, without any way back to her old life. She is probably being forced to play up for the cameras to play up for the journalists, to play up for anyone who shows her any interest. Not a great situation for a 23 year old!
They were on the police's radar. That's the bit that gets me. They never should have made it to Turkey. They were British children failed by the British police and trafficked across the Syrian border by a Canadian asset. The west is culpable.
 
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You don't have to be underage to be sex trafficked.
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Snap!
This must be an absolute minefield........ In my head I thought it was regarded as being worse if a minor was involved in sex trafficking. or any kind of human trafficking.

But I suppose any kind of trafficking of adults is appalling and illegal
 
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As I understand it, the evidence is that she was directly radicalised by her friend Sharmeena who was in turn radicalised by Asqa Mahmoud who had travelled to Syria in 2014. In December 2014 Sharmeena with encouragement from Asqa Mahmoud travelled to Istanbul and then on to Syria. It is believed that Sharmeena then encouraged Shamima and her two friends to make the same journey.

SIAC reached the opinion that Shamima and the other girls could not have made the journey without support and crucially encouragement from other parties. Their judgement is that there is credible evidence that Shamima was 'trafficked' to Syria in order to be married to and bear the children of ISIS fighters. This is considered sexual exploitation.

I understand that the law is that whether or not Shamima knew what was in store for her and was happy to go along with it is irrelevant. As a minor she is not legally able to give consent and that again in legal terms her decision to travel to Syria cannot be considered voluntary.

Her lawyers argued that the Home Secretary should have taken this into account when making the deprivation decision. In fact he gave it no consideration at all. SIAC rejected this argument but it seems likely that this will be challenged in higher courts.
It's tricky as revoking her citizenship is (arguably and technically) legal if she is a dual national. The courts are responsible for upholding the law.
The decision was a political one and ultimately we have parliamentary sovereignty. The courts can express an opinion on what ministers should consider but they can't overrule their decisions.
Ministers are free to do whatever they want as long as it's within the law.
 
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Yet we already know she wasn't just a 'Jihadi wife' over there which is why she has resigned herself to the fact she'll be staying in the camp.
Do we 'know' this or has it just been alleged?
 
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Do we 'know' this or has it just been alleged?
It's been alleged. I find it hard to believe the government would be happy to leave her free if she was a real threat. I don't think they'd be happy for someone like Samantha Lewthwaite to be in a camp, for example.
 
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Do we 'know' this or has it just been alleged?
According to Intelligence sources, even if they had video of her beheading someone would it stand up in a British court when it’s a foreign jurisdiction the crime was committed in?
 
They were on the police's radar. That's the bit that gets me. They never should have made it to Turkey. They were British children failed by the British police and trafficked across the Syrian border by a Canadian asset. The west is culpable.
The worst bit for me was the revelation that on 5th February 2015 the police revisited the school and gave Shamima and her two friends a letter (dated 2nd February) to give to their parents asking for permission to interview the girls. Unsurprisingly none of the girls passed their letters to their parents and they left the country on 17th February. Sheer incompetence.
 
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Her lawyers argued that the Home Secretary should have taken this into account when making the deprivation decision. In fact he gave it no consideration at all. SIAC rejected this argument but it seems likely that this will be challenged in higher courts.
Just to add I think she'll have her best shot in the ECHR now that this new information has come to light about Canada.

I expect this will add to the discourse about repealing all UK human rights legislation so that we can freely dispose of undesirables like refugees etc... because of course only they benefit from the protection of human rights! Hopefully we will have a fresh government by the time it comes to that.
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According to Intelligence sources, even if they had video of her beheading someone would it stand up in a British court when it’s a foreign jurisdiction the crime was committed in?
If we don't have those laws, surely we need to pass them? Let's not forget we only strip dual nationals of their citizenship. Plenty of other criminals come back.
We took Gary Glitter back, for example.
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The worst bit for me was the revelation that on 5th February 2015 the police revisited the school and gave Shamima and her two friends a letter (dated 2nd February) to give to their parents asking for permission to interview the girls. Unsurprisingly none of the girls passed their letters to their parents and they left the country on 17th February. Sheer incompetence.
That actually spurred them on to leave sooner than they had originally planned to.
 
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... If we don't have those laws, surely we need to pass them?
I think we do. The Terrorism Act 2000 allows prosecution in the UK for terrorist acts committed overseas. However the first consideration is whether there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction.
 
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The worst bit for me was the revelation that on 5th February 2015 the police revisited the school and gave Shamima and her two friends a letter (dated 2nd February) to give to their parents asking for permission to interview the girls. Unsurprisingly none of the girls passed their letters to their parents and they left the country on 17th February. Sheer incompetence.
Exactly, if you are worried about people becoming radicalised you do not put the letter in their hands, ridiculous
 
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They were on the police's radar. That's the bit that gets me. They never should have made it to Turkey. They were British children failed by the British police and trafficked across the Syrian border by a Canadian asset. The west is culpable.
What exactly is it that the police should have done? Place her under house arrest? Monitor her 24 hours a day? (do you have literally any idea how difficult it is to obtain a warrant to search the house of a known criminal once, yet alone monitor a 15 year old girl for 24 hours).


Take her into care? Remove her passport? What?? Do you want to introduce new legislation which makes it easier for police to detain minors on suspicion? Because you're very long of accusations of corruption and culpability, very short on actual solutions.
 
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Monitor her 24 hours a day?
Pretty sure this falls under national security and the government has a lot of discretion so they could have monitored her (at least online) - and probably did if they were on a radar - and it was fine as long as it was a proportional reaction. They clearly messed up by not notifying the parents directly

Ngl, I'm a bit shocked at how easy it was for those in ISIS to be calling home and talking to their families and friends
 
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Is it really too much to expect the police and schools to take affirmative action to stop terrorism?! That's a low bar
 
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Is it really too much to expect the police and schools to take affirmative action to stop terrorism?! That's a low bar
Nobody can take affirmative action to stop terrorism , even the security forces need grounds to hold someone, even to stop n search.
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It seems those that are spouting civil rights want people to bypass them on a whim, it doesn’t work like that.
 
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Newborn babies only require milk, milk she would be producing from her body, she said malnutrition not sanitation. Does shamima look malnourished or a bag of bones to you? Her skin looks clear, her clothes look clean and her nails are manicured and painted, sanitation you say?
Your are describing her now or more recently I assume, not when she was discovered in the camp by the Times journo in 2019? She looked and sounded ill in the original footage.

According to what I've read on the subject, prior to ending up in the camp her family were fleeing Raqqa before it was taken back from Daesh. She was anything but healthy and was malnourished at this point and was about to give birth. When she was 'found' in the camp she was clearly unwell. Just watch the footage. Her baby had pneumonia as well and became unwell during the night. She and the baby were taken to 'the big hospital' where the baby was put on a drip and locked in a room with Begum with a guard outside. The baby then died of a lung infection and Begum was left in the room with the baby until morning came and they could transport her back to the camp and the baby for burial. *

Before anyone starts talking about 'sympathy', that's not the purpose of this post. The last couple of days emotions have understandably run high in this thread, but she's a terrible enough person without anyone having to invent scenarios to make her seem "worse" somehow. The Syrian Democratic Forces confirmed that she had a baby and that her baby had died. Again, from what I've read, she originally only said she wanted to be repatriated so the baby could be treated in a UK hospital. At that point she showed zero remorse.

*Begums words and also in statements made by authorities at the camp.

Also, I really appreciate the posts made by forum members who work in legal issues, it's really interesting reading your take on the news this week, thanks for your input!
 
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I think what surprised me a lot was that it wasn't common knowledge around the school/parents about the girls who went to Syria before her, inbound have thought/expected that it was somehow well known among students and parents
 
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Once again, what "affirmative action" because without specifics that is a meaningless platitude.
Do I work for MI5? No, I'm an ordinary citizen but I'd like to think the government is capable of doing SOMETHING when they become aware of a potential terrorist 😂
 
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