Savanna Brockhill & Frankie Smith #12

[Pavement1979]

Hello, I am new here and didn't want to jump in without saying so as I can tell this is an established, well contributed to, thread. I have a social work/family therapy/clinical psychology background so, in particular, I have been watching FS reactions in court with interest. I am not married to my hypothesis but I don't believe she is guilty of these charges. Is it true she has already plead guilty to 8 charges of cruelty so far?

I wrote a (what I thought was a proportionate and balanced) comment on the TE page about FS and the lack of evidence against her for murder/manslaughter/CorA Death and was insulted by the 'let them swing' brigade. AKA the 'could of' lot. Not many grasp criminal law on there do they? Just wanted to say it is reassuring to read how firmly posters here grasp ACE's, grooming, DV, intergenerational patterns and...Dave Nice to 'meet' you all.

 

[chloem87]

@Pavement1979 It will be really interesting to hear your perspectives. I think sone people are just completely channel minded.

 

[Cocoloco818]

I’m not sure FS is up on any cruelty charges? She’s admitted being cruel but I don’t think she’s been charged with it

 

[Pavement1979]

@Cocoloco818 thank you. There was a post on TE saying FS had admitted guilt to these 8 charges at the start of the trial. I actually know the person who wrote the claim in RL, through a professional channel and she is not at all reliable so I thought if it was true people here would know about it.

I do a lot of work in and around family scripts and perinatal MH. Hence why I am more interested in FS. SB seems like your garden sociopath who fails to grasp that her cognition is average at best. FS however, her family script fascinates me, and I would be curious how robustly attachment issues have been explored with YS, FS and Star and who does/did the 'fathering' role in FS family.

 

[chloem87]

From what I have gathered. I may have got this wrong FS mother YS has 6 children FS being the second oldest,she currently is single and it was rumoured across Facebook that she had a relationship with star's father after she died which would indicate a lot about her mothering. It seems like the older girls we're mostly raised by the grandparents. Although the first person FS rang in the ambulance was her mum who came to the hospital. The nurse commented that her mum didn't even hug her so maybe some issues with attachment. I found it quite sad to read FS thrust herself into the arms of health professionals for a hug.
It seemed that she had an almost friend relationship with her mum rather than one she could turn to for guidance. I wonder if the lack of parenting growing up led her to believe SB harsh punishments were justifiable having nothing else to draw upon?

 

[Pavement1979]

I thought there seemed to be long running attachment issues: YS first words at the hospital seemed to be 'I will sort the funeral' which seemed to indicate a practical 'busy' response to her grandaughter dying rather than meeting her daughters emotional needs.

I also wonder about FS use of her child in the present tense? She kept referring to her daughter in the trial as though she was still alive. And FS herself felt that she was more akin to a little sister and told SB that she was Alicia's child. None of this indicates a typical, secure attachment does it?

It was also mentioned that FS was given a lot of caring responsibility for younger siblings whilst YS went out. So she was struggling with that, a baby, youth, SB and I think even I would struggle with that and I am in my 40's.

 

[Bekika]

I actually thought when FS said that SB hit her with her right hand while driving she may not know her left and right (I know right hand is possible but I did think she may have just guessed), but then because she was put on the spot she didn’t want to backtrack and look like she was lying again

I thought this too, but if I remember rightly, she did say she 'thinks it was her right hand'

 

[chloem87]

This is the general consensus across Facebook.
It is easy to say what you would do as someone with average intelligence (debatable in some of these Facebook groups) who have had a safe and loving childhood with the correct coping mechanisms, independent thinking and not in a domestic violence situation.

I think YS was a terrible mother when Anita took Star because FS couldn't cope where was her mum? Not home from a bender and it was 11am. Anita said she was out drinking all the time. Ben another sibling was raised by Anita and called her mum. Anita said when star was born FS was always being thrown out for her boyfriend, yet FS kept going back she seems desperate for her mum's approval.

 

[lastdis]

I thought there seemed to be long running attachment issues: YS first words at the hospital seemed to be 'I will sort the funeral' which seemed to indicate a practical 'busy' response to her grandaughter dying rather than meeting her daughters emotional needs.

I also wonder about FS use of her child in the present tense? She kept referring to her daughter in the trial as though she was still alive. And FS herself felt that she was more akin to a little sister and told SB that she was Alicia's child. None of this indicates a typical, secure attachment does it?

It was also mentioned that FS was given a lot of caring responsibility for younger siblings whilst YS went out. So she was struggling with that, a baby, youth, SB and I think even I would struggle with that and I am in my 40's.

If she was looking after younger siblings and all that , I wonder if that gave her any decent chance to bond with star .

 

[Bekika]

From what I have gathered. I may have got this wrong FS mother YS has 6 children FS being the second oldest,she currently is single and it was rumoured across Facebook that she had a relationship with star's father after she died which would indicate a lot about her mothering. It seems like the older girls we're mostly raised by the grandparents. Although the first person FS rang in the ambulance was her mum who came to the hospital. The nurse commented that her mum didn't even hug her so maybe some issues with attachment. I found it quite sad to read FS thrust herself into the arms of health professionals for a hug.
It seemed that she had an almost friend relationship with her mum rather than one she could turn to for guidance. I wonder if the lack of parenting growing up led her to believe SB harsh punishments were justifiable having nothing else to draw upon?

I don't think F's family will have disowned her. They, like most reasonable people, will know the final blow was inflicted by SB and F was also a victim. I so hope they know that many people agree with them.
I don't think they will broadcast this as they may think the majority of people believe she's as guilty as SB for not protecting baby.
A few weeks ago, after the balloon release, David posted that one of the balloons had been found in Northern Spain where they had been on a family holiday. He mentioned Frankie had been with them. I took this as a subtle hint that they are supporting her through this. I could be wrong.

 

[Pavement1979]

It's really worrying that Joe Public are so black and white about things. The amount of people who write 'They should both be done for murder and put away for a long time' don't seem to be able to think a thought right through to its end. How can you want to put someone away for murder, the most grievous and punished crime in our society, when there is zero evidence that individual did it?

Can't they think about the implications of an individual or society who agrees with that? Don't they understand that if that happened to them/their son/daughter/parent they might think that is slightly unfair? Baying for blood and ignoring burden of proof and justice is a very dodgy path to go down. History has taught us that.

 

[SamPam]

This is the general consensus across Facebook.
It is easy to say what you would do as someone with average intelligence (debatable in some of these Facebook groups) who have had a safe and loving childhood with the correct coping mechanisms, independent thinking and not in a domestic violence situation.

I think YS was a terrible mother when Anita took Star because FS couldn't cope where was her mum? Not home from a bender and it was 11am. Anita said she was out drinking all the time. Ben another sibling was raised by Anita and called her mum. Anita said when star was born FS was always being thrown out for her boyfriend, yet FS kept going back she seems desperate for her mum's approval.

Ben isn't actually YS's son though.

 

[TamW]

I think YS might have been quite cold and matter of fact when she went to see Star when she died as she maybe had suspicions that something had happened to the baby, she was already annoyed about her having to face the wall in the pub and FS dragging her in Bradford she was said to walk off as she couldn't understand why she wouldn't just pick her up.
I think after knowing SB the punishments and other factors she had an idea that this wasn't an accidental death

 

[Cocoloco818]

I think there’s a lot of reasons why FS said she felt like Star was more like a sister, I believe she said this while still living with YS. She’d grown up with several younger siblings who she was left to look after - so while YS is out FS is the guardian to her siblings but when YS is back she takes over - and this continued when Star was born. She’d basically just created a new child to be responsible for while YS was away.

 

[avabella]

Can I ask a question that has been on my mind. FS says she was in the bathroom and heard a thud and a child say 'oh Star'. If she was being hit wouldn't she hear her daughter cry. If not in pain but even if she fell no mention of Star crying. Also what did these children see, hear or witness. I haven't read anything other than they were being questioned. What happened to them. Maybe the lost time in the flat was sorting them out. They didn't pitch up at the hospital.

At my best guess was she was very much winded and couldn’t breathe never mind cry

 

[TamW]

I think there’s a lot of reasons why FS said she felt like Star was more like a sister, I believe she said this while still living with YS. She’d grown up with several younger siblings who she was left to look after - so while YS is out FS is the guardian to her siblings but when YS is back she takes over - and this continued when Star was born. She’d basically just created a new child to be responsible for while YS was away.

I had my first child at 16 and lived at home with all my younger siblings, I would babysit them while my mam went to her job in a morning and on a night and my mam would look after my daughter whilst I went to work 9-5 we were all pretty close but I never saw my daughter as my sister and my mam helped me out loads

 

[Cocoloco818]

I had my first child at 16 and lived at home with all my younger siblings, I would babysit them while my mam went to her job in a morning and on a night and my mam would look after my daughter whilst I went to work 9-5 we were all pretty close but I never saw my daughter as my sister and my mam helped me out loads

Yeah everyone’s different. A relative of mine had her daughter very young (13) and they’ve grown up more like siblings than mother and daughter, they’re actually close relatives of mine and I didn’t know they weren’t siblings till I was around 8. I think given FS mentality (it’s said her IQ is similar to that of a 9 year old) I can see how she’d feel that way

 

[elikayute]

It took me about 9 months for me to feel like my first born was mine. I had PND and it felt like I was babysitting, only there was no end to the crying (hers and mine). I can’t judge FS for saying that, and I’m sure I remember her saying that if she’d said Star was like a sister, it was because she loved Star like she loves her sisters (implying it’s a lot).

She wouldn’t be the first person to say she didn’t have a child when she does. And the evidence from Alicia that F wouldn’t let alone hold Star for long because she wanted her back indicates far more to me how she felt about Star.

 

[Bekika]

K

I think YS might have been quite cold and matter of fact when she went to see Star when she died as she maybe had suspicions that something had happened to the baby, she was already annoyed about her having to face the wall in the pub and FS dragging her in Bradford she was said to walk off as she couldn't understand why she wouldn't just pick her up.
I think after knowing SB the punishments and other factors she had an idea that this wasn't an accidental death

Good point!

 

[chloem87]

I think the sister thing to SB was more about the fact she liked her and didn't want to put her off saying she had a child. Same as she made out she had her own place when she didn't