Narcissistic and toxic parents #2

[Rodneytrotter]

Hi everyone, hope you're all doing OK.

Wanted to let you all know that Women's Hour (BBC sounds podcast) did an episode on Narc Mothers on 27th July that's worth a listen. My therapist also recommended Terri Cole on YouTube who is very direct and gives no nonsense info and advice.

Struggling with my narc mum atm. Since my therapist identified my mothers toxicity, I've had to hold my tongue and been avoiding her. She did come to my house and sit in the garden one day last week (she invited herself) but my daughter was also here, as I realised I don't like being alone with her. My therapist has triggered something in me that's now risen to my conscious state and I'm on high alert.

Anyway, next week she is helping my daughter with something as I'm working (she offered and it will put her front and centre) I can't shake the feeling she will use this opportunity to overpower, and possibly belittle me, as she has in the past in front of my child. I feel so hyper vigilant and trying not to feel anxious about it and act breezy when making the arrangements. Going to try the grey rock method for the next week until the event is over but feel like she's ready to pounce if that makes sense and she's attuned to my distancing.

For instance, my daughter was unwell on Sunday so we didn't go to my mums house as planned. Even texting her to let her know made me panicky. She called today and when she asked how my daughter was I said 'she's been up and down' (she suffers with migranes) her response was immediately 'well she was fine the last time I saw her' in a very defensive tone as if she is accusing me of lying. That's the thing about migraines that they come and go .

Sorry for the long post. Just needed to get this out of my system. Sending hugs to those who need them
---


How is the no contact going? Hope you're OK

Thanks it's been 2 years now. Going no contact was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do but I'm living in peace now and my mental health has never been so good.

I do still get feelings of guilt regularly I just try and distract myself from them.

 

[Rodneytrotter]

Now that's its been a few years seen I've cut contact with my Father I'm starting to realise that I might be in a controlling marriage with my husband of 16 years.

I don't think my husband is a narc at all, but I think he's too controlling. My role as a child was a peace keeper. I would do whatever it took not to make my dad angry, I was always walking on eggshells around him....

Ive fallen into this trap with my husband. As an example, he controls what I watch on TV by creating tension if he doesnt like something I'm watching to the point that I now don't watch TV anymore unless he goes out. He's jealous of other men too, had a go at me once for thanking a man who held a door open for me (said I was flirting). I have other examples too I just didn't want to write too much and bore everyone.

 

[cee-bee]

Now that's its been a few years seen I've cut contact with my Father I'm starting to realise that I might be in a controlling marriage with my husband of 16 years.

I don't think my husband is a narc at all, but I think he's too controlling. My role as a child was a peace keeper. I would do whatever it took not to make my dad angry, I was always walking on eggshells around him....

Ive fallen into this trap with my husband. As an example, he controls what I watch on TV by creating tension if he doesnt like something I'm watching to the point that I now don't watch TV anymore unless he goes out. He's jealous of other men too, had a go at me once for thanking a man who held a door open for me (said I was flirting). I have other examples too I just didn't want to write too much and bore everyone.

aw hun that sounds like a horrible realisation to come to, but I think it’s a good thing you’ve realised these behaviours aren’t OK.

I can definitely empathise. My first relationship was with an abusive guy. Like you, I was so used to being the peacekeeper and I lived on eggshells completely. I carried that utter fear of discord into my other relationships. My ex must’ve cottoned on pretty quickly that this was the case for me. He’d threaten huffs to get me to do what he wanted. He’d throw tantrums - oh god, the tantrums - to get his way. He didn’t like me wearing certain things. I actually doubt he even minded, he just liked being able to flex that control. I never once in that time realised just how much I appeased and fawned him. It was a trauma response, not my fault and your response isn’t yours either. Growing up in a reactive household means you feel responsible for other peoples tantrums - so I’d feel huge guilt for my ex being in a mood or a huff. I’d really struggle to tolerate that awful feeling. So I didn’t everything I could to avoid it. It might be worth reflecting if this aspect applies to you too..?

I was in my early 20s and only stayed with him for two years before ending things. He was around in my life for a few years after, until we were out for dinner and I made a joke. I laughed about how bad his old haircut was (something other people frequently teased him on).

his face darkened and the old me would’ve quickly changed the subject, said sorry, done anything to lift that mood. But the new me really just… didn’t give a tit. He started threatening a huff “that’s not a nice thing to say” getting moody etc.

I shrugged it off and I remember sipping my prosecco. No fawning, no responding. In all honestly I’d have happily asked for the bill and left. He realised that that power he had over me was gone and IMMEDIATELY brightened up. It was one of those lightbulb moments that made me realise all those tantrums and huffs were all fake - they were all about his insecurity and keeping me under the thumb. When he realised he didn’t have that power over me, his demeanour changed completely. Like you, I think the fact I had barely any contact with my narc father meant I was less in the grip of normalising those behaviours and in a safer place, mentally.

I’m assuming since you’re married and invested in this relationship (and you’ve said it isn’t abusive so I’m going to assume it’s physically safe for you), you don’t want to leave your marriage with this man.

I think you could potentially bring up his behaviour slowly, in a calm neutral space. It’s hard but it’s important you’re not reactive (I used to be very reactive, emotionally).

I think responding in the way I did with my ex will also make your husband realise this isn’t something he can hold over you anymore. Grey rock, or shrug off his huffs.

it’s thoroughly recommend asking for access to talking therapy/CBT because that will *hugely* help you understand your communication and how your Fawn response means you probably aren’t good at active communication. Couples therapy is also very worthwhile to get to the root of his insecurity and why he feels the need to have in this controlling manner.

I think it’s hugely, hugely commendable that you’ve recognised how your husband’s behaviour isn’t healthy or respectful. That’s an accomplishment in and of itself.

I really hope for your sake he can change his behaviour and wakes up to what he is doing. But you must prioritise yourself and your own well-being. You deserve to be treated with respect, kindness and love - especially from your partner of 16 years

 

[Rodneytrotter]

aw hun that sounds like a horrible realisation to come to, but I think it’s a good thing you’ve realised these behaviours aren’t OK.

I can definitely empathise. My first relationship was with an abusive guy. Like you, I was so used to being the peacekeeper and I lived on eggshells completely. I carried that utter fear of discord into my other relationships. My ex must’ve cottoned on pretty quickly that this was the case for me. He’d threaten huffs to get me to do what he wanted. He’d throw tantrums - oh god, the tantrums - to get his way. He didn’t like me wearing certain things. I actually doubt he even minded, he just liked being able to flex that control. I never once in that time realised just how much I appeased and fawned him. It was a trauma response, not my fault and your response isn’t yours either. Growing up in a reactive household means you feel responsible for other peoples tantrums - so I’d feel huge guilt for my ex being in a mood or a huff. I’d really struggle to tolerate that awful feeling. So I didn’t everything I could to avoid it. It might be worth reflecting if this aspect applies to you too..?

I was in my early 20s and only stayed with him for two years before ending things. He was around in my life for a few years after, until we were out for dinner and I made a joke. I laughed about how bad his old haircut was (something other people frequently teased him on).

his face darkened and the old me would’ve quickly changed the subject, said sorry, done anything to lift that mood. But the new me really just… didn’t give a tit. He started threatening a huff “that’s not a nice thing to say” getting moody etc.

I shrugged it off and I remember sipping my prosecco. No fawning, no responding. In all honestly I’d have happily asked for the bill and left. He realised that that power he had over me was gone and IMMEDIATELY brightened up. It was one of those lightbulb moments that made me realise all those tantrums and huffs were all fake - they were all about his insecurity and keeping me under the thumb. When he realised he didn’t have that power over me, his demeanour changed completely. Like you, I think the fact I had barely any contact with my narc father meant I was less in the grip of normalising those behaviours and in a safer place, mentally.

I’m assuming since you’re married and invested in this relationship (and you’ve said it isn’t abusive so I’m going to assume it’s physically safe for you), you don’t want to leave your marriage with this man.

I think you could potentially bring up his behaviour slowly, in a calm neutral space. It’s hard but it’s important you’re not reactive (I used to be very reactive, emotionally).

I think responding in the way I did with my ex will also make your husband realise this isn’t something he can hold over you anymore. Grey rock, or shrug off his huffs.

it’s thoroughly recommend asking for access to talking therapy/CBT because that will *hugely* help you understand your communication and how your Fawn response means you probably aren’t good at active communication. Couples therapy is also very worthwhile to get to the root of his insecurity and why he feels the need to have in this controlling manner.

I think it’s hugely, hugely commendable that you’ve recognised how your husband’s behaviour isn’t healthy or respectful. That’s an accomplishment in and of itself.

I really hope for your sake he can change his behaviour and wakes up to what he is doing. But you must prioritise yourself and your own well-being. You deserve to be treated with respect, kindness and love - especially from your partner of 16 years

Thank you so much for this, it made me cry a little as it's always a relief to have someone who understands he actually phoned me in his lunch break as he's working away at the moment and I blurted out that I was fed up with it and that I'll watch what I want when I want he was a bit taken aback but did admit that he has issues.

I think grey rocking is a good idea so thank you for the suggestion, I'll try that if he ever makes a sarky comment or dig. It's sort of like a boundary. I did remind him that I am programmed to please people after growing up feeling tensions and walking on eggshells and that I only ever want him to be pleased with me.

You're right I dont want to leave him, I just wanted to sort out this particular issue. Someone with better boundaries would have nipped it in the bud straight away. I couldn't get there with my Father, I was never going to please him and I'd had enough, so cutting him out was a last resort.

 

[cee-bee]

Thank you so much for this, it made me cry a little as it's always a relief to have someone who understands he actually phoned me in his lunch break as he's working away at the moment and I blurted out that I was fed up with it and that I'll watch what I want when I want he was a bit taken aback but did admit that he has issues.

I think grey rocking is a good idea so thank you for the suggestion, I'll try that if he ever makes a sarky comment or dig. It's sort of like a boundary. I did remind him that I am programmed to please people after growing up feeling tensions and walking on eggshells and that I only ever want him to be pleased with me.

You're right I dont want to leave him, I just wanted to sort out this particular issue. Someone with better boundaries would have nipped it in the bud straight away. I couldn't get there with my Father, I was never going to please him and I'd had enough, so cutting him out was a last resort.

id really recommend couples therapy… because for it to be sorted, your husband has to be willing to accept responsibility for his behaviour and want to change, and therapy can be a safe space for that type of reflection.

but yeh, I think reading up on comms style and CBT techniques would be a real eye opener for you.

for example, with CBT you relfect on scenarios like your husband huffing when you want to watch TV.

how do you feel when your husband voices that he wants to watch something else when you’re watching TV?

do you become tense? How does this manifest in your body? Do your shoulders tense up, do you clench your jaw?

do you feel panicked? What is your concern and the source of panic?

If the source of your panic is fear of your husbands disproval; why do you think you need his approval to watch your TV show? is there a fair balance of whose show you watch? If you watch his shows without complaint, is it inappropriate for you to want him to reciprocate? Or perhaps it’s a reasonable request? Are you able to observe those feelings of tension/guilt/fear and let them pass without reacting to them?

and so on! It’s all about observing your emotions and trying to understand them, rather than reacting to them, and learning to sit through uncomfortable emotions.

so in that scenario, you might want to say to your husband “I see you’re a bit put out I’m watching a show on TV, but I’ve watched your TV shows multiple times this week so I’m going to continue enjoying my show“.

the communication aspect of CBT, is about passive v active communication and when it’s appropriate. A lot of people pleasers communicate passively. We don’t direct our needs. It’s really worth reflecting and observing how you communicate!

 

[Ablemabel]

id really recommend couples therapy… because for it to be sorted, your husband has to be willing to accept responsibility for his behaviour and want to change, and therapy can be a safe space for that type of reflection.

but yeh, I think reading up on comms style and CBT techniques would be a real eye opener for you.

for example, with CBT you relfect on scenarios like your husband huffing when you want to watch TV.

how do you feel when your husband voices that he wants to watch something else when you’re watching TV?

do you become tense? How does this manifest in your body? Do your shoulders tense up, do you clench your jaw?

do you feel panicked? What is your concern and the source of panic?

If the source of your panic is fear of your husbands disproval; why do you think you need his approval to watch your TV show? is there a fair balance of whose show you watch? If you watch his shows without complaint, is it inappropriate for you to want him to reciprocate? Or perhaps it’s a reasonable request? Are you able to observe those feelings of tension/guilt/fear and let them pass without reacting to them?

and so on! It’s all about observing your emotions and trying to understand them, rather than reacting to them, and learning to sit through uncomfortable emotions.

so in that scenario, you might want to say to your husband “I see you’re a bit put out I’m watching a show on TV, but I’ve watched your TV shows multiple times this week so I’m going to continue enjoying my show“.

the communication aspect of CBT, is about passive v active communication and when it’s appropriate. A lot of people pleasers communicate passively. We don’t direct our needs. It’s really worth reflecting and observing how you communicate!

This is such good advice!

 

[Rodneytrotter]

id really recommend couples therapy… because for it to be sorted, your husband has to be willing to accept responsibility for his behaviour and want to change, and therapy can be a safe space for that type of reflection.

but yeh, I think reading up on comms style and CBT techniques would be a real eye opener for you.

for example, with CBT you relfect on scenarios like your husband huffing when you want to watch TV.

how do you feel when your husband voices that he wants to watch something else when you’re watching TV?

do you become tense? How does this manifest in your body? Do your shoulders tense up, do you clench your jaw?

do you feel panicked? What is your concern and the source of panic?

If the source of your panic is fear of your husbands disproval; why do you think you need his approval to watch your TV show? is there a fair balance of whose show you watch? If you watch his shows without complaint, is it inappropriate for you to want him to reciprocate? Or perhaps it’s a reasonable request? Are you able to observe those feelings of tension/guilt/fear and let them pass without reacting to them?

and so on! It’s all about observing your emotions and trying to understand them, rather than reacting to them, and learning to sit through uncomfortable emotions.

so in that scenario, you might want to say to your husband “I see you’re a bit put out I’m watching a show on TV, but I’ve watched your TV shows multiple times this week so I’m going to continue enjoying my show“.

the communication aspect of CBT, is about passive v active communication and when it’s appropriate. A lot of people pleasers communicate passively. We don’t direct our needs. It’s really worth reflecting and observing how you communicate!

Thanks again yes ive had CBT before for different reasons and loved it! I always felt utter panic when I felt he was cross with what I was watching and went into fight or flight very quickly and either threw the remote down and stormed off or started shaking and panicking and fawning. I'm using the past tense because for the past few years I haven't touched the remote. He either puts a program on for us to watch, or the rest are his choices. The reason I dont touch it is because I'm avoiding any tension if i watch something he doesn't like. If rather not bother than risk him being cross with me.

I think I fear the actual feeling of fear, or the feeling of him not being happy with me. I feel I always have to prove I'm 'good'.

Are you a CBT therapist? You seem to know your stuff xx

 

[Ablemabel]

Thanks again yes ive had CBT before for different reasons and loved it! I always felt utter panic when I felt he was cross with what I was watching and went into fight or flight very quickly and either threw the remote down and stormed off or started shaking and panicking and fawning. I'm using the past tense because for the past few years I haven't touched the remote. He either puts a program on for us to watch, or the rest are his choices. The reason I dont touch it is because I'm avoiding any tension if i watch something he doesn't like. If rather not bother than risk him being cross with me.

I think I fear the actual feeling of fear, or the feeling of him not being happy with me. I feel I always have to prove I'm 'good'.

Are you a CBT therapist? You seem to know your stuff xx

I'm sorry you're going through this. I know a few people who are in a similar situation with their partners. I hate the idea of someone trying to control someone in this way, presumably due to insecurities. @cee-bee's advice is excellent.

 

[cee-bee]

Thanks again yes ive had CBT before for different reasons and loved it! I always felt utter panic when I felt he was cross with what I was watching and went into fight or flight very quickly and either threw the remote down and stormed off or started shaking and panicking and fawning. I'm using the past tense because for the past few years I haven't touched the remote. He either puts a program on for us to watch, or the rest are his choices. The reason I dont touch it is because I'm avoiding any tension if i watch something he doesn't like. If rather not bother than risk him being cross with me.

I think I fear the actual feeling of fear, or the feeling of him not being happy with me. I feel I always have to prove I'm 'good'.

Are you a CBT therapist? You seem to know your stuff xx

what you’re feeling is not at all uncommon! I’ve felt it too. I’m glad you’ve accessed CBT before I hope you find it as useful as I have with tackling the passive communication/people pleasing/reactivity.

i really hope your husband is willing to work with you, let us know how it develops.

im not a therapist! Just an empathetic tattler

 

[Shimmering]

narcs make everything about them. They probably know they are bad parents but it’s uncomfortable for them. They can never admit to any personal failings, that’s terrifying. That’s why they can’t ever apologise.

so when their offspring are loving, they don’t see it as that. They see it as a mirror being held up to them and forcing them to see their own inadequacies. And that’s a black hole for them, absolutely terrifying. So yeh, I think you’re probably right that a lot of you and your brothers behaviour is probably very difficult for her

because ultimately narcissism is bourne out of trauma.. for whatever reason our parents developed it as a coping mechanism probably early in childhood. The narcissicissm is there to cushion up a fragile, broken self esteem. That’s why they can’t ever risk saying sorry, or acknowledging their flaws. That’s why they don’t have room to think about other peoples’ perspectives, or empathise. It’s sad really, likely through no fault of their own they’ve been turned into these shells of human beings, lost and unhappy and creating harm all around them.

Holy crap reading that post just triggered a deep buried memory for me of being affectionate to my dad when I was small (under 10) and him telling me to stop being a floozy.

My relationship with my dad has very much shaped my life, broken me at times. I'm 40 now and healing from my traumatic upbringing. My dad doesn't have NPD I don't think but has narcissistic traits. I was the first born and got the full force of it unfortunately.

My dad can be very supportive and kind but can also suddenly say and do the most extremely hurtful things when you least expect it. It seems to run in the family as I frequently feel the urge. My paternal grandmother was very similar. I do fight it though, which makes me different. I very much take the attitude of I will behave the way I know I should behave, rather than giving in to this monster inside that wants me to be a bleep to people. It has helped me enormously.

My dad does apologise, he always has done. The difficult thing is he doesn't change his behaviour.

I live near him and see him a lot. I've just learnt to keep interactions light and breezy, and I ignore any unwelcome or stupid comments. Growing up I worshipped my dad and was desperate for his approval. But it never came and I am free from the feeling of needing it now. I know who my dad is and how he behaves and I accept him for who he is. I protect myself but I also am grateful to him for the good things he did, and he was in many ways a dedicated parent.

 

[cosytoes]

@cee-bee your words of wisdom are invaluable. I bob in and out of this thread frequently and the advice you offer has helped numerous times.

I’m sure that other will have found comfort in your comments too.

Sometimes just reading other people’s experiences triggers memories long buried but I personally find that by accepting the memory and reflecting on it puts things into context.

I am currently very low contact with my narc mother and enabling dad. I don’t answer the phone on the first ring. I don’t reply to texts immediately and I’m grey rocking and my mental health has improved significantly.

I’m waffling now but I just wanted to thank you ALL for your support and virtual hugs. And here’s to a brighter narc free future
Thanks again @cee-bee

 

[C1O2]

I have recently found this thread and have read a few pages ( not all ) but all I can say is the advice and understanding between members is great. I am trying to write a short version of my own but haven’t quite been able to get across what I want to get off my chest but will at some point.

just sending everyone a and some inner peace

 

[CrimsonCountess]

Well today it has finally happened, had a horrible passive aggressive message from my parents this morning. And for once I actually stood up for myself rather than just letting them treat me like they normally do. And my mum did not like it at all, told me she never wants to speak to me again and has blocked all forms of contact. I actually feel relieved, I don’t feel sad at all. It’s been a long time coming really

 

[Rodneytrotter]

Well today it has finally happened, had a horrible passive aggressive message from my parents this morning. And for once I actually stood up for myself rather than just letting them treat me like they normally do. And my mum did not like it at all, told me she never wants to speak to me again and has blocked all forms of contact. I actually feel relieved, I don’t feel sad at all. It’s been a long time coming really

Im so sorry this has happened to you. But also good for you for not taking it anymore

 

[C1O2]

Well today it has finally happened, had a horrible passive aggressive message from my parents this morning. And for once I actually stood up for myself rather than just letting them treat me like they normally do. And my mum did not like it at all, told me she never wants to speak to me again and has blocked all forms of contact. I actually feel relieved, I don’t feel sad at all. It’s been a long time coming really

Well done for standing up for yourself. It’s very hard and daunting. I hope you get more peace in your own head now. X

 

[Ablemabel]

Well today it has finally happened, had a horrible passive aggressive message from my parents this morning. And for once I actually stood up for myself rather than just letting them treat me like they normally do. And my mum did not like it at all, told me she never wants to speak to me again and has blocked all forms of contact. I actually feel relieved, I don’t feel sad at all. It’s been a long time coming really

Well done. It's not bloody easy, especially when the reaction is just so over the top. In my experience after a few weeks of 'punishing' you, a narc will wander back into your life as if nothing has happened. A very wise person once asked me what I would do if my children behaved in the same way and of course you wouldn't tolerate from children so it's funny what we are conditioned to accept by narcissistic parents.

 

[CrimsonCountess]

I actually would be a bit surprised if she did try, I think she now won’t talk to me unless I reach out first and I have absolutely no intention of doing that. She once fell out with her own mum over something really petty (they were both as bad as each other and both stubborn)and she ignored her for 5 years and only made up when my gran made loads of effort. It’s a shame that it means falling out with my dad too, but I’ve come to realise that he’s just as bad as she is because he would always take her side and never protected or defended us against her even as kids

 

[Beth1980]

It doesn't take much for them to want no contact and place all the blame on us and take no responsibility at all and let everyone else know we are at fault. Good on you for being strong enough to stand up to the behaviour.

 

[Urbanbunny]

Well today it has finally happened, had a horrible passive aggressive message from my parents this morning. And for once I actually stood up for myself rather than just letting them treat me like they normally do. And my mum did not like it at all, told me she never wants to speak to me again and has blocked all forms of contact. I actually feel relieved, I don’t feel sad at all. It’s been a long time coming really

this sounds like a great outcome. You’ve removed a problem and you didn’t even need to do it yourself.

 

[C1O2]

Had the “pleasure” of a visit from parents this morning. Invited themselves last night. Hadn’t seen in a few weeks. Ignored by father for 20 mins after argument last time ( 3 weeks ago). Wasn’t expecting an apology ( who ever does from parents like this!)
So tense even though they were here an hour my head is spinning from him more than her.
before leaving he wanted to know if my husband had certain tool he could use ! Brass neck goes hand in hand with narcissist I think ?
I don’t live near them anymore but do live in same area as my in laws ( wonderful) people. He has developed a strong hatred towards them for no reason. It’s uncomfortable to listen to him make remarks about them just because they are better off financially ( not rich just more comfortable) and just be stand offish with them. Thankfully they know he is what he is.
I started to write out a list of what he makes me feel and instead of helping me I’m in a worse mood than before !
Just needed to get that off my chest.
Sorry this is my first time posting re my own experience is it ok to just post like this ? Apologies if not.