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Miss Havisham

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Lots of manipulation on MJ’s part - but also downright arrogance and entitlement. Perhaps that comes down to being a global superstar, and not an ordinary Joe.

The marriage to Lisa Marie Presley (that lasted months), just after the initial allegations. Bizarre that LMP went through with it, when she must have known that she was being manipulated - perhaps she wasn’t in a good place.

It would be no surprise, if false allegations are mixed in with actual abuse. The families involved were willing to hand their children over to an adult man, because he was rich and famous (so very money driven) - it seems inevitable that they could make allegations regardless.
But still, it continued - having boys sleeping with him, unsupervised by another adult. Despite allegations it continued (much to the horror of MJs advisers and associates).
I feel that this was manipulation. In plain sight and the feeling / belief that he was above everybody else - and everything / anything can be bought.

Evidence that a child has accessed pornography in an adults home is a raging red flag and abusive in itself. It’s a known tool by paedophiles to manipulate, groom and abuse children for their own needs.
 
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Islawight

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As he was so inclined on having little boys share his bed, why did he not have cameras in his rooms to prove nothing untoward ever happened? Seeing as he already had allegations of SA but still invited boys into his bed, you’d think he would cover himself legally if he was innocent for any future ’money grabbing families’.
Being found innocent of charges in court does not mean an individual is factually innocent.
 
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Abominatrix

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She married him days after the divorce from her previous husband - with her mother warning against marrying him, concerned she was being used.

They divorced quickly - with LMP citing his controlling behaviour. It’s well documented that he was pressuring her into having children (she already had two) and she feared that she would be then dumped with a custody battle to follow. She said he was controlling and isolated her.

As for her maintaining a connection to him following the divorce, I’m sure there were complexities - but they were literally married for a year. Likely that the year that they were married, was not normal in any sense.

The overall impression is that she was used and also seemed vulnerable.

Not the first sham showbiz marriage - and certainly wasn’t the last.
And ignoring all the showbiz stuff - a serial child predator snagging up a newly divorced woman with serious daddy issues and then him controlling and manipulating her into having children... Just seems like a nasty set up.

Wouldn't be the first time on that mess either, I've seen in happen irl - my good friend was targeted because her mother was extremely vulnerable and had been abused in her youth herself. That predator smell opportunity all over that family, and my friend wound up being drugged and sexually abused over the next 4 years, starting when she was 12.

Her abuser was also, of course, backed by his family who then harassed her for years, calling her a liar and a manipulative slut. So watching people cape for MJ, when he's broadcast his predatory ways again and again and again, is twisted as hell. He's a textbook pedalo, at the time one of the richest, most powerful, and most famous people in the world, people worshipped him.

But yeah, nothing to see here folks. He just didn't have a childhood 😭😭😭
 
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Miss Havisham

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Michael is 100% innocent. People say “ innocent untill proven guilty “ he was proven innocent yet people still insist on dragging this up all the time. these people claiming years later are after one thing and that is money.

Let the man rest.
How does proven innocent work? It’s not the same as not guilty.

Unfortunately, many SA cases don’t even make it to prosecution stage - and if they do, they are notoriously difficult to prove.
 
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SarahGard83

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Just finished watching it and there's no doubt in my mind that they are telling the truth. Was horrifying listening to them recall the way Michael used his power to abuse them
 
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MunkyMagic

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I watched an interview with LMP and she pretty much says MJ wasn’t anything like he presented to the public; he was astute business-wise and knew his “child like” persona kept him protected, ensured fans loved him and therefore made him money.

He also bought the Beatles back catalogue after taking Paul McCsrtneys advice on investing in music publishing. Bet Macca didn’t anticipate that one when doling our advice.
 
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Abominatrix

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He was a global superstar and lived a life that attracted interest, interest that was frequently capitalised upon.

Considering his lifestyle, and even the circumstances of his death - he is going to be talked about. All the more so, when his estate authorise movies, etc about him.

He will be talked about for years to come, alongside Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, Princess Diana John Lennon, etc. I don’t think we can just say, ignore all the negative sides of their lives because they are dead. Especially if there was controversy around their behaviour, when they were alive.

This is a forum to discuss famous people (dead or alive). If anyone is upset by the discussion content or posts - they can always report it to admins.
Also, there's the block function people, use it!

This is a gossip forum, not a rave thread. I'm sick to death of the internet's "be nice" routine when it's really only "cater to my feelings when discussing the things I personally like" most of the time.
 
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Midsummer Son

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Let’s say that MJ didn’t touch kids (he did) but let’s say he didn’t. He still had young children he was not related to in his bed, alone. Bought them gifts.

If a man down the street said let your 12 year old son sleep in my bed, play on the rides in my garden and I’ll buy him presents are you saying you’d say yes?! Nah, you’d say fuck off you dirty pervert.

You cannot separate the grooming and disgust of it all just because MJ has a few good songs. He’s a groomer. People argue he didn’t touch his own kids. Most paedophiles don’t actually touch their own children.

Lack of evidence? Well MJ didn’t need to have tons of child SA material did he really? He had a carousel of young kids in his actual bed 🤢. His court case was a farce as well. Jurors dancing to his music in the stands? It was a joke.
I can't believe the jurors danced to his music. Even if you're a fan, doing that shows the highest level of disrespect for the victims of the very serious accusations they had to deliberate on. Of course people like that were going to exonerate him no matter the evidence.
 
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White rose

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Michael is 100% innocent. People say “ innocent untill proven guilty “ he was proven innocent yet people still insist on dragging this up all the time. these people claiming years later are after one thing and that is money.

Let the man rest.
 
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Soncna

Active member
Why are you talking about children abuse? There were always only BOYS. There is well documented history of his special friends- holding hands, sitting together,…. Always boys, boys, boys…. I loved his music as a kid/ teenager/ young woman. As a mother of three sons,who saw these pictures, I turn off the radio when I hear his music. His eccentricity is no excuse for the abuse. His fame Is still protecting him. You don’t want be the mother of the boy in Bashir interview. For me the police interview with the boy is enough to believe the children-boys.
 
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PurvyPanda

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Has anyone watched the Laytoya reality show? Its just appeared on my YouTube suggestions, shes an odd one
They’re all odd to be honest with you. Jermaine Jackson’s son is called ‘Jermajesty’ as in ‘yes, your majesty’. WTF?
AND…
The mother is the ex of Jermaine’s brother, Randy. So their children are cousins and half siblings of hers and Jermaine's children.

The only member of that family who seems like they’ve got their shit together, and dared to question the behaviour of MJ, is Janet. I feel sorry for her. She was great in her own right but her brothers antics always tarnished her too when they really shouldn’t have done.
 
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shellie

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Sorry but his behaviour is literally textbook grooming behaviour of the entire families of the victims. If it was a random man and not a beloved popular you are a fan of you'd believe it very easily. Look at the shit thats come out about other pedophile celebrities! But just because Micheal had a bad childhood he must be innocent 🤣
Add to that, quite a few people who worked for him said they saw stuff and when he was raided, there were books full of pictures of naked children taken which if you saw the pictures were far from the 'art' people claim it was which was completely normal...right?
 
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MunkyMagic

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I just watched it and urgh, it was sickening. I believe Safechuck and Robson. I think (in Robson’s case) just because he’s a known liar doesn’t mean he can’t tell the truth, and in Safechuck’s case he is just hollowed. I watched bits of the Oprah interview before the documentary and looking back it again after hearing his testimony you can visibly see he’s curled in on himself.

They talk of the conflict of deeply loving and wanting to protect Jackson and not recognising their abuse for what it was until they could put it into context as an adult and parent. Robson also talks about the 2014 lawsuit as wanting the same forum to replay the 2003 one to put it “right” - that makes sense in terms of what we know about survivor guilt and wanting to reinact rescue scenarios. In 2003 he was trying to rescue Jackson and in 2014 he was trying to rescue other victims. It just all seems psychologically plausible.

I the case of chandler saying Jackson was circumcised when he wasn’t, without wanting to be too graphic I guess it’s possible for a 13 year old to understand that to be the case when seeing an erect adult penis with the foreskin pulled back and glans exposed.

I can understand people having difficulty believing Jackson would carry out such things, though. It’s a huge thing to reconcile.
 
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Soncna

Active member
Sorry but his behaviour is literally textbook grooming behaviour of the entire families of the victims. If it was a random man and not a beloved popular you are a fan of you'd believe it very easily. Look at the shit thats come out about other pedophile celebrities! But just because Micheal had a bad childhood he must be innocent 🤣
Totally agree.
 
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Youtubegossip

VIP Member
Yeah I’m not convinced by the documentary having watched it.

However,
I still think a grown man wanting children to sleep in his bed isn’t innocent and even if nothing happened is crossing a HUGE boundary. No one would be okay with Roger from down the road doing it.

Also, didn’t one of the boys describe in great detail the marks on the underside of MJs penis which turned out to be accurate?
 
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shellie

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His crisis publicist has done an interview admitting he had books of naked children and ordered videos with them in it. I'll put the relevant stuff I found on Reddit under a spoiler but if you want to see for yourself it's here.


He handed me a book and he said it was Michael's. It was all of naked men and things like that. And I said, "Frank, you know, I know Michael from firsthand was fooling around with some of the fans." I said, "Uh, you know, why is he looking at um you know, naked pictures of men?" I said, "It's fine, but you know, you told me Michael's heterosexual. We never Oh, he just looks at it for the artistic value, but I'm hiding it. You know, I'm I'm He's hiding it. He's not like showing it to anyone."

"He's not disclosing anything. So, I said, "All right, Frank, you keep the book. I'll take the bag. I'll bring it to the city." Something struck me wrong.

I stopped at my house. I said, "Let me go. Let me see what he's handing me. I don't know what he's handing me." So, I opened the bag and um I start flipping through it and I found a magazine and it was a a nudist magazine called Naturally.

Um turned out I started flipping through it. I was like, "Okay, it's just pictures of nudist women and adults." And then it flipped to the section um where it was videos of kids, naked kids uh and their families, some with just naked kids uh with circles around Sharpie, black Sharpie circles around the videos to be ordered. I almost had a breakdown. And I literally did have a breakdown because there was pictures of naked kids. I said, "This is what Frank handed And obviously at that time it just snapped.

He was covering up for him. There's something here. Where there's smoke, there's fire. And um turned out uh I didn't bring it into the city yet. I end up going into another attorney. I was very scared at the time. Uh we're in this big case all over the media, all over the globe. Uh, Sergeant Oel had stopped the house and he was on his way back to Santa Barbara, went to another attorney. They immediately picked up the phone to him and said, "Vincent found something that was very concerning, which may be important to you." And he was very disgusted by it. Sergeant Obel says, "I'm on a plane just about getting on the plane back to Santa Barbara. We'll have to meet at a different time."

He gets on the plane. I had an attorney, another attorney. Uh, I still had Joe because I had my information at Joe's office. Uh, turns out I asked, you know, when can I get it back? Um, I stayed with Joe for a bit more. Uh, Techapena, I'm in the office. I wanted to show Joe cuz I tried to convince Joe, you know, also represent me in bringing this to the district attorney's office. You know, he was the one that I chose. He was a high-profile, very strong attorney in New York.

Right at that point, he goes, "Give me the magazine." I said, "No." I I looked next to me and it was Frank that was sitting standing right next to me. So, I wanted to turn this into the district's attorney's office. He kind of got me because he asked for it right in front of Frank. I end up handing it over and that was the last time I've seen it.

The good news is is that when I found this magazine, I took pictures, I documented it. Um, I confronted Frank about it. Frank said that uh this was a phase that him and Michael went through watching these videos and Michael would select these naked children's videos to be ordered uh by Frank and Frank would, you know, facilitate this.

Here is the YT video timestamped:






This is just some of the things taken out of his house when he was arrested. At the time, his fans defended it claiming the books were 'artistic' yet during the trial, some of them were shown and there were pictures of young boys completely naked with everything on show. This isn't the first of people who worked for him who has admitted to knowing and seeing things but as usual, his fans will ignore it and defend him when if it was anyone else, people would rightly be screaming for his head.

MJ Evidence.jpg
 
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Miss Havisham

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The time line of a few things were off, he released History while still married to Lisa marie, yet this made appear they were already divorced.
Thats the one that stood out to me.
I can only see the marriage as an absolute sham. Married in May 94, Presley filed for divorce in January 96.
I have scented diffusers that lasted longer.

There is nothing to suggest that the marriage was authentic in any way, but then it looked very orchestrated - following allegations against him.
 
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Tothemoonandback

Well-known member
I was a huge fan of MJs. Stuck up for him over the years re allegations. Thought they were all after his money,he was like a child himself,he never had a childhood etc. Then saw the documentary in Feb. Something inside me switched. I can't look at him now. His music is tainted.
Yes it was a very well done documentary. I believed every word at first too. I'm actually now shocked that channel 4 convicted a dead black man FOR PROFIT with no evidence. I'm not saying Jackson is innocent- obviously I can't say that I wasn't there and Jackson's behaviour with children and obsession with childhood has always been troubling and his family and friends should have intervened as it left all parties so vulnerable.

BUT there's some serious holes in that documentary. In the documentary Safechuck claims to have been abused daily in a trainstation at Jackson's ranch (In the "honeymoon phase"
of his abuse as he called it). It has subsequently transpired was train station was not built until 4 years after Safechuck claims his abuse ended. I've rewatched that scene again from the documentary and now I know that element of it cannot be true the whole thing just doesn't sit right.

The other accuser, Robson, says in the documentary that Jackson "turned him against women" and that Jackson only wanted him as his special friend. Well it now transpires Jackson introduced Robson to his Neice, Brandi Jackson. And Robson and Brandi dated for 8/9 years! Something Robson himself verifies in court documents but this part of the story has been left out of the documentary. Surely it would have been worth Robson mentioning once during a 4 hour documentary that he was dating his abusers niece the whole time he was being abused and apparently being turned against women?

Both these two new accusers got into serious financial difficulty just weeks before claiming to remember abuse. That is suspect. Doesn't mean they're lying but it is suspect.

Robson also claims Jackson's hair felt like a "Brillo Pad" and as many black people on Twitter have pointed out, there can have been no black people involved in the making of this "documentary" as this immediately stands out. Black hair in a jerecho curl doesn't feel like a Brillo pad. Again, that doesn't mean Robson is lying (he could have misremembered this), but it needs to be factored in.

Another element not included in the documentary but that is included in the court documents: Robson's email to his mum asking her for details of his meetings with Jackson. Robson emailed his mum attaching a newspaper article and says in the email "mum is this article true, I don't remember" and Robson's mum replies "wow no none of this is true". Yet Robson goes on to include all the details from the article in his multi million dollar lawsuit anyway!! It's definitely worth reading the court documents - it's fascinating.

Same with Gavin who accused Jackson in 2005. He claimed Jackson tried to kidnap his family in a hot air balloon. The claims got so ridiculous the jury were openly laughing at points.

I just get the feeling that if Gary Glitter had been the one with the money and fame, we’d be here reading about his accusers being liars and wondering if any of the rumours were true. It just seems so easy to cover stuff up if you have the money and are making big dollars for influential people too. If any of us had kids sleeping in our beds for ANY “reasons” we would expect to get locked up and have nobody trust us again
Aside from the OJ Simpson case, I don't know much about any of these other cases that always seem to get put into the mix. Just because Jimmy Saville and Gary Glitter are guilty,it doesn't mean every weird famous guy who gets accused must be to too.

I actually don't really want to make simplistic comparisons but if forced... for a start, Glitter and Saville's accusers all went to the police in the first instance. Indeed with Saville the police and BBC covered it up for years. Contrast this with Jackson where the FBI were investigating Jackson over a ten year period and the police nearly bankrupted the state of Santa Barbara in trying to convict Jackson. They even sent officers to Australia to try and find new accusers. They found no

All of Jackson's accusers have gone to civil lawyers first to seek money. All Jackson accusers have had financial problems. This is the opposite of Saville and Glitter.

If your son had been abused would you want money or justice first? Which would be more important?
I know it doesn't mean these accusers are lying but again it's part of the picture.

Again, personally I want to get away from comparison. Look at each case and each accuser individually. Just because OJ got found "not guilty" doesn't mean all rich people with good lawyers get off. Each case is separate and it's too simplistic to just use a broad brush approach. I know it takes more time but individual research is needed.
 
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bottlewrapper

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Plenty has been discussed in the past 17 years. People make up their own minds - but it will be based on his behaviour. What they knew at the time and what they have become aware of more recently.
Victims of SA may not realise they were abused because they were groomed (along with their entire families), it's only when they may become parents themselves that they realise the sleepover games they played as a child with a forty something man weren't as normal as they were led to believe.

Any new cases won't go to a criminal court because MJ is dead. That leaves the civil court, and the Jackson family will want the royalties to keep rolling in, so will be buying the silence of any other claimants and the public would never know.
 
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Miss Havisham

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Until fairly recently, I believed that MJ was likely to be innocent. I felt that he had various issues - and was somehow, almost a child trapped in an adults body.
I watched a few documentaries on him very recently (including the recent BBC doc). I realised that I previously knew little about the accusations made against him, and various timelines. I now see him as a manipulative, calculating man.

I do feel that not all his accusers will be genuine - even Saville had some people making false allegations against him, once his offences became official (though after his death ). I do believe he abused children, but he felt that he was smart enough to also have his “friendships” with children that he did not abuse. Knowing full well, that these children will be his “evidence” of innocence.
Even his marriage to Lisa Marie Presley. Hastily arranged after allegations made against him. I don’t know if she knew she was being manipulated - but what an absolute sham.
 
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