Lucy Letby Case #7

[Lucyxxxx]

Another thing. I don't think it's strange how much she is messaging her colleagues. The conversation is going 2 ways. If she's strange for talking about cases so much so are the other people also engaging in that same conversation.

 

[Daisydunn15]

Not defending her in the slightest bjt context here is everything. We’ve already began to wonder if she may be a bit socially awkward. It could be that she was trying to offer the mum a piece of information, a memory or something. I find it hard to believe she walked in smiling and said oh she’s dead but she loved a bath. It could be that the mother was expressing upset about things she won’t get to know about her child, things she won’t get to see or experience. The prosecution is obviously spinning things a certain way so whilst yes it may have happened exactly as they said, without more context it means nothing. The smile could have been a reassuring smile etc… I dunno that’s where my head went anyway

Or maybe the mother is remembering it as worse than it was, it can't be a nice memory, she's making this statement years later in the context of a murder enquiry. It may be that LL just tried to reassure like 'do you remember the First time we bathed him?' And if the mother engaged she may have continued the conversation. Perhaps the mother was so distressed that she misinterpreted the exchange.
None of us really know, and we have different opinions of what is acceptable. Personally I'd have stood in silence and allowed the family to have that moment with their child.

 

[Serene Serena]

This is ancient history, but one of the Bay City Rollers trained as a nurse after pop stardom had gone. He worked on a coronary care unit. I think he was found guilty of possession of images of child sexual abuse and also had a 14yo Filipino boy living with him. He was never struck off the NMC register though, because he wasn't deemed a danger to his cardiac patients

So going by that logic, if this nurse is found guilty of harming and murdering infants, she would be able to resume her nursing career as long as she only cared for adults?

 

[candyland_]

Just a selection of her texts but to me she is the one fishing to talk about it.

Her colleagues aren’t exactly engaging in the conversation. They are giving her short, dead end replies.

 

[Dizzy]

Some of the jokes I've heard would not be acceptable to the general public they call it gallows humour. It's definitely a coping mechanism an unhealthy one sometimes.

I completely agree with this. I have a close friend who’s a paramedic and the humour she shares with her colleagues is daaaaark. However, as we’ve heard neonatal deaths aren’t actually that common, what were there - 3 deaths a year in the hospital excluding 2015-2016? I feel like a death on the ward would very much be seen and felt as an exception, a stand out event and I don’t think a joking matter, even taking into account the gallows humour and the challenges of the role in general.

 

[Milktray]

The different circumstances comment is a bit suss

It is!

Because dying under the same circumstances would be even odder.

That's why, I think, LL planted the seed by saying 'different circumstances'. She was changing the narrative and taking control of the gossip.

The colleague already thought it was a strange comment because, for some reason, they were under the impression that the 3 babies had died under similar circumstances.
Her colleague realising that they had said too much, replies, 'Ignore me. I'm speculating'

So there was speculation from the 'get-go' but LL appeared to know about this suspicion. And we're only on child A...what the hell did conversation turn into by the time we get to child Q?

 

[Daisydunn15]

I agree. It’s like she’s fishing or almost again loving the morbid chat. I work with animals. Sometimes we have sick ones we get quite attached to and my colleagues and I will update each other on our days off but reading my messages back when someone has mentioned an animal has passed we usually just reply with “ oh no!” Or “ heart breaking “ and a sad emoji because there’s no need to embellish. We all know how much we love these animals and I’ve never noticed this before but thinking about it now I’m usually then sad and don’t want to continue the conversation. Maybe I’m over thinking, just my thoughts.

I think nursing is different, I've never worked in NICU but when someone has messaged me letting me know somethings happened, my first thought is 'oh that's awful' and my second is usually 'shit, i hope nobody is blamed for this, who was on shift? Who had last contact? is my work going to be pulled apart? is my paperwork air tight?' Because I've worked in some blame heavy teams. So it may be natural to ask more questions.

 

[LittleMy]

I don’t really see it as shifting the blame. I think it’s sounds like what you might say when you swap a shift with someone (in retail for example) and you get a nightmare customer or something goes wrong. Like a ‘can’t believe I’m stuck with this, I’m not even supposed to be in today’ type of thing.

I worked in a frail and elderly unit for years and would often say something to that effect when someone sadly passed and I was on covering someone else’s shift. Nobody wants a death to occur on their shift, especially when you were only there as a favour. Unfortunately it’s just one of those things, but I don’t see it as shifting the blame. I agree with you here.

 

[Windowtothewall]

People saying the mother could mis-remember because of the emotion/trauma of the situation. Can you imagine if rape victims were told as standard, that their memories are crap because they were traumatised by the situation?? What a terrible, dangerous precedent that would be for any victim of a crime.

 

[Tofino]

I think the reporting on the trial needs to improve we’ve got 6 months of this and If all the papers can’t get the same story straight how on earth is it coming across to the jury

I’m more hopeful about the jury because they are getting paperwork, scans of records etc so it should be easier for them to follow. They probably have a transcript of the text messages in chronological order with dates and time stamps. It’s the bloody media that are the problem!

It’s defeated me in the wiki today. I tried to collate the text messages and find some kind of order but it was too hard with the way the news articles have cherry picked it. So I’ve just had to put the links there instead.

The timelines from medical records seem to be flowing much better as Mark at Chester Standard is reporting the exact times, and we’ve started on baby B now. I don’t know why he didn’t do the same with the messages though.

 

[bluevanilla27]

I really don’t think the Facebook searches show anything, I’ve had people I worked with and looked after that I’ve really cared about, and even looked their family up on Facebook because I heard so much about them and was interested to see what they were like. Call me weird, I don’t care it’s just me being nosey, but if anything happened to these people I’d look guilty as sin but infact I’d be completely innocent. It’s just us as humans being inquisitive. Makes me actually wonder if I even want Facebook anymore, amazing how it can be twisted when it’s totally innocent.

 

[slingo16]

A couple of key points in my opinion

the prosecution have given there possible causes of death for these children which differ from the original post mortems.

a lot of people are hearing that as; this is the real cause of death, just to clear up this is not the case, the prosecution agree the original causes of death are plausible.

also how were these new causes of death determined?

with the child that died of insulin poisoning. Ive read “no one else was prescribed insulin”. Which reads to me that the child had been prescribed insulin. I think people are thinking he shouldn’t have it in his system at all, but that’s incorrect.
with that incident aswel I believe she asked for a bag to be tested but no record of this could be found, the bag that she didn’t have contact with (she may have had access to it) was found to be contaminated, and in this case the child’s condition worsened without her presence.

there is also no sense in the fact that. If she’s a cold blooded killer who is willing to kill a set of twins in 24hours. Why after successful resus did she then care for the child and not finish the job. When it’s clear she had the opportunity to do so

it would be interesting to know how many children died in that time frame, and how many collapses there were? Also what percentage of hours she worked.

I’d also like to know why things that health care professionals claimed “they’d never seen before” Wasn’t reported even mentioned in the postmortems ie the bleeding and the rash like blotches.

can anyone say if a baby injected with air would show that beyond doubt or not? And how long would it take for a child to die from air being injected?

there’s a lot of questions but I don’t see how anybody on the jury could see her go to prison for life on the evidence that’s been presented so far

thanks for reading, please feel free to correct meon anything I’ve got factually wrong. And I’m completely open to her being guilty. but before I call someone a baby killer, I’m willing to hear what they have to say

 

[candyland_]

She was actively searching for those parents hours after the deaths. You don’t just randomly type in a few letters and a patients parent comes up. She was seeking them out each and every time. Both the mother and father in some cases.

 

[Daisydunn15]

As standard, we don't go around doubting the victims of a crime (like the parents are) and their memories. I think you would be grateful of it if you are ever the victim of a crime and only remember details after a time has passed, or a suspect has been arrested, once you've had a chance to settle your mind,

Completely disagree with this. Everyone deserves a fair trial, and these are alleged victims. LL's defence should be able to question their recollection of events in the same way that they would question anyone else.
Nobody is questioning that they've been through something horrific but that doesn't mean that whatever statement they make should be taken as gospel.

 

[Tofino]

@Tangerine Cat

I’ve added the post it note image to the wiki now by embedding the tweet from Judith Moritz. It’s barely taken any space up compared to attaching a proper image. Hopefully this works for people. I’ve also added a subheading so people can find it easily.

 

[gmf21]

Really? WOW..it’s just not done. When you become a health professional, you take oaths..you behave appropriately so what in gods earth would a nurse be stalking the parents of dead babies..screenshots of sympathy cards that the murderess sent to those grieving parents. They are a trophy..the FB searched gave her a thrill. Disgusting

Registered Nurses don’t actually take any oaths. You’re bound by the NMC Code of Conduct and the terms of your employment contract - NHS contracts may become more detailed after this case I think, for example expressly forbidding searches of patients on SM.

I just want to say something regarding the comments about her not having much else in her life, only a few friends etc. (not that the evidence has shown much about that yet) - it’s very hard to have a life outside work when you work long shifts in an intense job.

Your “weekend” can be Tuesday night for example so nobody with a “normal” job wants to do much and your work friends are probably working!

HCPs and emergency services workers do tend to stick together when it comes to relationships, I know one doctor who is married to an NHS admin and one who is married to a teacher but all the other doctors I know socially are with HCPs or 999 workers.

For nurses it can be very hard to stay in touch with other friend groups, particularly for people on FT contracts and shift rotation. Add in constant requests to work extra to cover and the need to do bank if you want to buy a house or car or have holidays and it can be all consuming and make you a bit weird.

Ive worked in places where staff were incredibly enmeshed in each other’s lives - bridesmaids, godparents etc. It can be hard to relate to your mate moaning about Melanie in Accounts being annoying when your work involves life and death.

 

[DipsyDoodle]

I agree. It’s pure conjecture and a strange thing to fixate on when she was so young, quite early on in her career and wasn’t in a serious relationship as far as we know. For most women in her position, settling down and having babies would not be a thought in her immediate future. There’s no evidence to suggest that she’s suffered miscarriages or had been told she was infertile.

I think some people are interpreting the part of the note that says "I'll never have children or marry" as she had been told she couldn't have children, although it easily could be because she knew if she was found guilty she's be in prison for life, so would never have that opportunity.

 

[IGiveUp22]

Re the “attempts to charge her” that’s not really how it’s probably worked if I’m honest.
She would have been arrested for X offences but to get medical records released, the police would have needed the parents permission, they can also take some time, then they’d of needed to find impartial people to look over such evidence etc. she has a right to give an account for EVERY charge against her, hence them arresting her a further 2 times as she has to be questioned under caution. They also can’t keep her in a cell for months on ends whilst medical evidence is collected & reviewed so obviously they had to bail/release her under investigation. That’s how investigations work??
CPS are the deciding party to authorise a charge, depending the processes of the force, this could have been done electronically for them to view the amount of evidence as well which again, would have take a lot of time. They may have identified areas where the police needed to obtain further statements from people or get further medical records from different times. It’s not that they “made evidence to fit” this is a HUGE investigation & when I worked in my old role, CPS could take up to 6 months to decide a charging decision on a S39 assault with all possible evidence available (victim statement, independent witness statement, CCTV injury photos, no comment interview, prev DV history)…it’s not fast but that doesn’t mean the evidence isn’t there. The burden of proof is very high & realistically, would you have wanted her to be in court after a slap dash quick investigation? I wouldn’t.

 

[Parsnipface]

Hi guys, working today and my friends and family have all had babies in Arrowe park hossie, finding it hard with it being so close to home today but will enjoy your thoughts!
I just wanted to say though, I've worked with 100s of nurses, dated a few as well and their sense of humour proper dark, nothing is off limits when it comes to this job. As others have said, coping mechanism.
A girl I was seeing was really attached to an elderly patient who would sing "seasons in the sun" on repeat, he died in a sad event and she was devastated at home, at work first thing she said was, "well at least no more seasons in the fucking sun".
Just my input for today x

 

[pommobear]

To me the ethics behind the facebook searches are kind of a moot point here. The question is does the fact she searched the parents on facebook prove that she murdered their children? The answer to that question is no.