Lucy Letby Case #7

[Caledonianprincess]

I dipped out for a couple of days as reading all the details plus being pregnant and hormonal it was just too much. Going to tentatively catch up and see how I go. Hope everyone reading is taking breaks when they feel it's too much and takes care of themselves

 

[Notworthy]

I’m firmly in the unsure camp!

Just thinking about the Colin Norris case - he was convicted of murdering elderly patients in Leeds. His supporters have campaigned for him saying that the police made the evidence fit the hypothesis rather than draw conclusions from the evidence (I haven’t explained this very well, hopefully you know what I mean!)

Colin Norris: serial killer nurse conviction sent to court of appeal | Criminal Cases Review Commission | The Guardian

New evidence calls into doubt 2008 case of man known as ‘angel of death’ for four murders in Leeds

amp.theguardian.com

I think for the prosecution to successfully prove the charges against Letby they’ll be working from the “open mind” end of things? As in, the ONLY explanation is that she did something malicious to each baby with the intent of causing death.

It’s very complex and you’d assume some of the charges have “better” evidence than others. I wonder if it’ll be a majority verdict rather than unanimous and if she’ll have a mixed bunch of verdicts. I think that will be awful for families but the jury have to make the decisions they believe are right. I don’t envy anyone involved, it’s an awful case.

I think people really underestimate the pressure the Police are under to get a result in high profile cases. This can and does lead to miscarriages of justice

 

[Alzzah]

But so many of the babies died from external interference. Therefore if LL didn’t do it, someone else did.

The prosecution are alleging that the babies died from external interference. This hasn’t been proven as fact as yet.

 

[IGiveUp22]

Not being arsey honestly but just to ask. Why is the alleged guilt admission in the note so hard to ignore but not the protests of innocence?

I think it’s because for me personally, I can agree with the protests of innocence if I think she was innocent - they make sense.
However, I can’t explain why she’d write I killed them on purpose if she was innocent. So therefore that sentence becomes stronger for me than the protest of innocence if that makes sense

 

[veevee04]

I think LL had little going on in her personal life hence the obsession with texting , picking up shifts. The job was her life , the text about saying I'm never picking up your shift haha. I know it's very sad and macabe but I have picked up a shift then it's been terrible and we have a death. You kind of become more hardened to traumatic events you have too, to be able to do the job. You can develop a dark sense of humour as a coping mechanism. Same with Adam Kay calling OBS and gynae brats & twats.

 

[Windowtothewall]

Apologies - appears it aired on TV on 9th of June, so actually the day after Child A died, but that video was posted on BBC website a week before on 2nd of June.

In any case, I do wonder if this show - which shows working with neonates to be a fast-paced job - ties in with what the prosecution said about her texting a workmate about not wanting to just feed babies: "The prosecution say it seemed that she was not happy with working conditions and she referred to the difficulties of looking after the babies who just needed feeding support" (Chester Standard live update re: Child J). I wonder if she wanted the excitement of these life or death moments?

So she would have watched the trailer on 2 June, that show how gas in bowels kills babies.

Then 9 June Baby B collapses 16 minutes after she feeds him/does blood gases.

9 June baby B findings:

After efforts to resuscitate Child B, Child B "recovered very quickly".

A doctor subsequently found "loops of gas filled bowel".


Yet when she discussed the show with her colleague after baby B's collapse, she didn't talk about similarities with the show and baby A and B but
Letby responded: "I just find it interesting, to see how our work is portrayed to the public."

 

[avabella]

The things that hold me back from jumping off the fence;

- the fact it took many attempts at arresting her and meeting the 'threshold' for charging her. This leads me to think that some of the evidence submitted has fit the hypothesis/brief.
- did any other nurse on that shift search the parents on the internet or Facebook?
- did any other nurse send parents a sympathy card/sign it.
- what percentage of hours was LL present over her standard working contract?
- what was the grievance procedure that LL was going through at the time? Did she initiate it or did the hospital?
- what were the circumstances around the note - was it during a phone call I wonder?
- what other activity was logged on her phone/laptop.
- why wasn't the baby who died via suspected insulin poisoning investigated thoroughly?

 

[SwizzleMalarkey]

I think the FB thing looking weird really depends on how you use social media yourself. I’m super nosy so if I meet someone I will look them up and within ten minutes I’ll be looking at their brothers girlfriends cousins holiday photos from 2017!
LL is a similar age to me and I think the way we use social media is different to people older and those younger too. Whether it is professional or not to be doing so is a different matter but nurses on here have said it does happen.

 

[Lackofimagination]

People saying the mother could mis-remember because of the emotion/trauma of the situation. Can you imagine if rape victims were told as standard, that their memories are crap because they were traumatised by the situation?? What a terrible, dangerous precedent that would be for any victim of a crime.

I get what you’re saying completely but I am a victim of rape and my memory is shot. I couldn’t tell you the truth now years on under oath because I cannot remember. Trauma does a lot to the body and mind.

 

[Upintheair83]

It seems to me LL was obsessed with her job , I really need to know about her shift patterns how much overtime did she pick up? This would really skew their statistics. If I was on the jury right now I could not condemn her to life in prison based on the evidence so far.

I'm willing to have an open mind, I do think she's guilty so I am biased. But if guilty, she seems she put that uniform on and enjoyed the power and how people perceived her. I think she's a Psychopath in a uniform. Smart, cunning, manipulative and obsessed. She enjoys being having the power of life over death and over people's emotions and I think she revelled in the pain she caused and the after effects. Maybe at times when she thought she would 'lose it all' ie never see her family again, never have a normal life she panicked. Not once did she seem to have sorrow over those young little lives that were lost, the note seemed to just be upset over herself and her situation. Which yeh,i know is understandable. But so far I'm not buying her being innocent as much as I would like to be convinced.

 

[SwizzleMalarkey]

The prosecution are alleging that the babies died from external interference. This hasn’t been proven as fact as yet.

This is what they need to prove for me. For example when they did the post-mortem on Baby A they didn’t know what the cause of death was, but there was no suggestion of any foul play. They didn’t mention an air embolism; or even that the cause of death could be due to negligence, it was just unexplained. But now they’re looking for it they decide it was because of an air embolism. Lots of deaths could be caused by many factors - it doesn’t mean it’s true. From what we’ve heard so far, there is no physical evidence that LL or anyone else caused the death in that instance.

 

[avabella]

baby A and B both sound like they were born in quite poor condition and not very well at all, which to me is contrary to the previous reports?

I'm reading todays evidence feeling like I'm reading the defence. All I'm hearing is (sadly) details about very poorly babies who have unfortunately deteriorated. The quote today from the Dr was 'she didn't know what baby to attend to first' - nothing about that says that they were stable and healthy and unexpected to have complications.

 

[Felix08]

Exactly! I don’t have anywhere on my contract that states I cannot make Facebook searches. Absolutely ridiculous

I find it interesting that a lot of people are just claiming how a nurse should behave and feel like they seem to forget that we are humans?
So yes maybe you shouldnt look up patients on facebook but but you wouldnt believe how many patients look us up on facebook and send us a message.
Some other things that people seem to claim a nurse shouldnt do or should do are sometimes so normal for us or doesnt mean a big deal

I really dont know if Lucy is guilty but some evidence just isnt a hard yes for me.

 

[avabella]

Regardless of if she is guilty or not, shit like this does show what an utterly bizarre woman she is. Noone in their right mind would make a comment like that. Maybe she was trying to be kind but clearly did not have the good sense to see how deeply upsetting that would be.

I think this is sometimes the interesting thing about how events are reported. To me, the image I get is of someone (a nurse etc) giving a meek/sympathy smile and trying to give the parents a nicer memory about the bath time rather than when the baby had passed. But to others they interpret it as a 'happy' smile and a comment made to hurt. I guess that's where the written word is really tricky sometimes.

 

[jackolantern]

On the flip side she could have just been sharing a nice thing about the baby.

Agree to disagree. I already said she may have thought she was doing something nice, however noone with any sense in their head would see a mother washing her dead baby and highlight the fact you gave them their first bath instead of them and also that they loved it - something the mum missed and will never experience again. Absolutely zero social skills or awareness. Worrying for a NICU nurse.

 

[Aberscot]

On June 30, following the deaths of Child A, C and D, and the non-fatal collapse of Child B, Letby's colleague messaged her there was something 'odd' about that night.
Letby replies: 'What do you mean? Odd that we lost three and in different cicrumstances?'
Letby's colleague responds: "I don't know, were they that different?"
The collague added: "Ignore me, I'm speculating.

The above texts between Lucy and a colleague , so collegue is already thinking something odd is going on. How on earth did it get to Baby P before something was done, regardless of whether Lucy is guilty of doing anything or not.
Facebook searches , again I think we need more info like who else was she searching…
and she didnt want to look at Baby A parents , that could be taken either way , she was too ashamed/guilty or else just she was so upset after death of baby

 

[Appletiser]

Hi all, been lurking on these boards about a week but thought I’d join the discussion, although I worry I’m getting overly invested in this case. I am really not sure what to make of the whole thing, I just find it all very strange!

I work in the NHS (mental health ward) and am a mum to a baby(well toddler now) myself and of course I can’t even imagine how those parents must feel but for some reason I keep coming back to Lucy herself and feeling bad for her too?
Of course if she’s done this then I’m sure I won’t feel that way but every time I see a picture of her face I feel really sorry for her.
I know this probably makes me a bit weird! And of course I feel even more sorry for the babies and their poor families.
Who knows whether it’s bias/ white privilege/ or because I identify with her in some way but right now I admit I am struggling to see her as 100% guilty of doing this intentionally

 

[Milktray]

This message raises questions...

On June 30, following the deaths of Child A, C and D, and the non-fatal collapse of Child B, Letby's colleague messaged her there was something 'odd' about that night (colleague is referring to the night Child A died).

Letby replies: 'What do you mean? Odd that we lost three and in different cicrumstances?'

Letby's colleague responds: "I don't know, were they that different?"

The collague added: "Ignore me, I'm speculating."


Firstly - 'something odd about that night'. Something clearly didn't sit well with her colleague from the 'get go'. If Child A is (currently) the first child and that felt odd...how did we get to 22 charges?

Secondly - What was her colleague speculating? Was she suspicious of LL and if so, why is she having that conversation with her.

Thirdly - When the colleague is discussing 'that night' (being the night Child A died) LL responds refering to the 3 babies, who all died under different circumstances.
It's almost like LL is trying to 'normalise' the deaths by saying, 'they all died with different things', so it can't be anything 'odd'.

 

[ieughi3qkt34]

A lot of you were asking if she searched for parents of children who hadn't died. Seems that was indeed the case.

 

[anotheronebitesthedust.1]

I agree, I do think she is peculiar/weird/odd.

It’s not that weird to be fair when you work in the that field , there is a lot of research I’ve come across when I’ve done projects showing that nurses do use humour as a coping mechanism
Last week our shift all got off 2 hours late and had a death too and you may disagree but it’s how some cope with it to relieve their stress
Hence the phrase if I didn’t laugh I would cry