Lucy Letby Case #7

[Livingfornow]

Hiya, I’ve read every message on all the threads so far but haven’t commented yet as it all moves so fast for me to keep up in conversation when I’ve got my 3 littles. But it’s so interested to read everyone’s opinions/explanations/view points and has really helped me think about my view point.
anyway just to ‘lighten’ to mood for a minute (which apologises If you don’t feel it appropriate just thought in cases like this a little bit of light hearted humour helps to not make me feel too down about the heartbreaking case), I saw this on twitter and really made me chuckle

 

[Daisydunn15]

Lucy Letby: Nurse told colleagues of baby death heartbreak, court told

Lucy Letby's trial is told she messaged colleagues about how hard it was to deal with bereaved parents.

www.bbc.co.uk

The BBC reporting of the texts are a lot more involved

I feel like these make the texts seem more understandable. If she's innocent, seems that the first death was really impactful and that's why she kept searching and seeing how they were doing. I can't see anything suspicious or wrong with those.

 

[TheWitchIsBack]

I do find this really suspicious. It looks like deflection to me.


On June 30, following the deaths of Child A, C and D, and the non-fatal collapse of Child B, Letby's colleague messaged her there was something 'odd' about that night.

Letby replies: 'What do you mean? Odd that we lost three and in different cicrumstances?'

Letby's colleague responds: "I don't know, were they that different?"

The colleague added: "Ignore me, I'm speculating."

The wording of that is so unnatural isn’t it. You’d reply along the lines of “what a horrible night, to lose one is horrific but to lose three is unthinkable”… saying they’ve been lost under different circumstances almost makes it look like she’s been trying to cover her tracks by using different methods.

It’s hard for me to read without any sort of bias as I think she’s guilty - interested to see what those in the innocent/unsure camp think of this?

 

[chocolatepanda6]

I remember yrs ago a neighbour made a malicious report to social services about me. The SW who came out was 21. Found her on twitter bitching about 'difficult clients' aka me. The cheek.

I definitely feel no one should be allowed to work in social services until they have hit at least 25 . That’s a debate for another day but the majority of my colleagues have zero life experience and and incredibly judgemental of their clients without realising that life can take you all over the place . They are also incredibly zealous if they take a dislike to someone but good at covering it up .

 

[raspberryjuice]

Letby: "It was awful...he died very suddenly and unexpectedly just after handover. Not sure why. It's gone to the coroner."

The colleague: "Oh god, he was doing really well when I left."

So the nurse who was caring for him just before LL took over thought he was doing really well. An hour later he’s dead.

 

[jackolantern]

People on this thread are working harder than her lawyers to make her seem innocent

It is fascinating how people can think so differently. Like some of us have no (or very little) doubt she's guilty and some can talk her way out of nearly every situation and truly believe she's innocent. Neither can fathom how the other sees it that way. How can the human psyche be so opposing? It's crazy. Guess this is why we have a jury.

 

[I’mThankyou_]

According to the BBC article she replied to that colleague saying she wasn't even supposed to be in... again shifting blame. The more detail I get the more guilty these texts make her seem.

"Her colleague messaged that Ms Letby was "not having a great run at the moment", to which she replied: "I was not supposed to be in either."

I dont see it as shifting the blame
Her texts are sketchy, but I've often worked on a full moon and when it's all gone tits up often text our ward manager or said to her as she's walking in at 7am "don't ever put me on a full moon shift again"
Or if I've swapped a shift with a colleague and it's been a bad one I've said "that's the last time I take one of your shifts"
It can be taken as a dark humour aspect, but I can see how to some people who've obviously never been in those kind of scenarios before it looks like blame shifting.

 

[Lucyxxxx]

I know on previous threads a few people have said that motive isn’t really relevant on this but I do think it would add a whole load of context to why the CPS have decided to proceed with prosecuting her. I also think that they will introduce this and it will explain the digging up of the garden etc.

Equally there’s also a few people asking why did she wait X years to begin killing as it’s a stumbling block for them mentally between guilty/not guilty - it’s worth noting that the police have extended their investigation and it’s not due to finish for a few years so the first deaths to be prosecuted could very much be the tip of the iceberg.

I appreciate all sides of the argument at this stage and am reading each post and considering each point however I am very much in the mindset of guilty just now.

I don’t believe this many coincidences could occur together - the statistic probability of this has to be absolutely tiny, far tinier than the probability that she’s a wrongun.

I also think there’s credence to the fact that the death and collapse rates shifted when she changed shift, that staff were concerned about her enough to check on her and her behaviour around certain babies is questionable (being stood in the doorway saying their colour is off etc) - then upon full investigation by the police, so something her colleagues would have absolutely no knowledge of, she’s found to have searched for the exact families of the babies she’s being investigated for killing on significant dates such as anniversaries and Christmas, has pictures of two of the children, plus the note in her house saying “I killed them on purpose” - potentially more evidence from her home as well as the prosecution have stated there were multiple items of interest found.

Scapegoating, I’ve said a few times, makes absolutely no sense to me. There is no benefit whatsoever to the trust of having a member of their staff charged with murder. The financial and repetitional liability of this is astronomical in comparison to what it would have been had they just took the findings of an independent review and got on with fixing them.

There’s coincidence and then there’s the universe conspiring against you - I don’t buy it. I am however reading absolutely everything you guys are posting and willing to be proved wrong.

Although I feel differently to you I can appreciate this as a well thought out, well put post.

 

[I’mThankyou_]

The sun online show the messages in more detail

I'd rather eat shit than ever read the sun

 

[cakefood]

Hi, new to the thread, but have been keeping up since the beginning (or trying, the threads move fast).

I've had experience of negligence by a hospital with my youngest son when he was 2, an 'error' that almost killed him. In our case the Dr at the time blamed the nurses in his apology. We've never really had proper answers, although we were so relieved he was okay in the end, we let it go. Anyway, I guess it hits close as my son was born early 2016, and although he was older at the time and this was in resus, one of the issues was an IV where the bag given to him wasn't what it should have been.

Still, even when mistakes are made you want to believe staff are acting in their best interest and not with malicious intent.

The thought that it could have been deliberately is horrifying, and I'd have been devestated if I had the police knocking on the door years later. I can only imagine how traumatic and heartbreaking it must be for the families involved.

With LL it feels like there's almost too many incidents for it to be coincidence, but I want to believe she's innocent because the alternative is almost too much to comprehend.

Either way, I hope justice takes it's course, the trial is fair, and those poor parents get the answers they deserve for their little ones.

 

[Daisydunn15]

Really? WOW..it’s just not done. When you become a health professional, you take oaths..you behave appropriately so what in gods earth would a nurse be stalking the parents of dead babies..screenshots of sympathy cards that the murderess sent to those grieving parents. They are a trophy..the FB searched gave her a thrill. Disgusting

As a health professional, I've never taken an oath not to look people up on Facebook. Nor is it mentioned in any trust policy.
I've looked for patients' family after a death, I've also went looking for people I've met in passing, people I knew from school, a friends ex's family... I've certainly never murdered those people.
Not saying she's innocent but that's just not good enough evidence for me.

 

[I’mThankyou_]

Sorry posted at end of last thread and so my question may be missed, so I'll post it again here.

Someone mentioned the text she sent to a colleague about working a split shift. For those of us not working for NHS...what is a split shift and what (if any) significance is that to this case?

On our ward we'd often be asked to do a split shift so we'd usually do 7am till around 12-1pm then go home and come back and do the twilight shift which would be 7pm till around 1am.
Could be something like this
The only significance it highlights to me at the moment is that the ward was seriously short staffed and they were trying to keep as many bodies on a safeish ratio as they possibly could

 

[corriefan175]

Agree to disagree. I already said she may have thought she was doing something nice, however noone with any sense in their head would see a mother washing her dead baby and highlight the fact you gave them their first bath instead of them and also that they loved it - something the mum missed and will never experience again. Absolutely zero social skills or awareness. Worrying for a NICU nurse.

I remember when I was about 16 I was at my boyfriends grandma’s funeral and his cousin was upset that the last time she’d seen her, hadn’t thought to give her a cuddle. Without thought I just piped up ‘I did the last time I saw her’ and I’ve cringed and felt guilty about it for 20 odd years!!

 

[viggle]

Can you imagine if you had been accused of something you didn’t do, especially to this degree!

It wasn’t murder, but my husband had this happen and says it’s the most traumatising thing he’s ever been through.

Won’t go into detail so as not to derail the thread, but he said that at the time it felt like everyone had already decided he was guilty and he was convinced he was going to go to prison over something he didn’t do. I think the worst feeling for him was knowing there were people who believed it, because it was such an awful thing he was being accused of.
That took a massive toll on his mental health and he ended up diagnosed with serious depression.
Thankfully after over a year of messy investigations he was able to prove he didn’t do it.

I met him not long after that and when he told me the story it completely changed my perspective on things like this - things often aren’t as clear as they seem. Even when you think the evidence is right there, there could be a lot be more to it.

I don’t think we have enough to say for definite either way, but if Lucy Letby is innocent I feel for her immensely.

 

[MyWayOrTheHighway]

I’m so conflicted by this case, before the trial began I was certain she was guilty purely based on how the story was presented by the media - it felt like her guilt was iron-clad!

But I’m really on the fence now, I agree she has done some odd things with the post it note, Facebook stalking and some of her responses to police or colleagues feel awkward and stilted, but as others have said, these are all subjective and don’t give us 100 per cent certainty that she did all of this.

I’m a socially awkward person with extreme anxiety and get the impression she is too, I can totally see her freezing like a deer in the headlights with the police or overthinking things by searching for parents on Facebook and catastrophising on her post it note.

I’m definitely not saying she’s innocent, I really want to know about the blood coming out of the babies mouth and what happened with the insulin in the IV bag, that will really cement for me whether she’s guilty or not.

I don’t think for one minute people are defending her, I think people just want to be sure she really is guilty before throwing away the key. We’ve seen so many people sent to prison based on ‘expert evidence’ only for there to be gaping great holes in the evidence later on: Amanda Knox, Louise Woodward and The mum whose baby was taken by a dingo in the 1980s.

I just hope those poor parents get some sort of resolution either way, I’m a mum and I honestly don’t think I’d be able to cope if I was them

 

[mRsKbRoOkS]

Haven’t caught up on the thread yet and just catching up on the transcripts on my lunch break! But to me this is all so f*cking suss today! Particularly this part

On June 30, following the deaths of Child A, C and D, and the non-fatal collapse of Child B, Letby's colleague messaged her there was something 'odd' about that night.

Letby replies: 'What do you mean? Odd that we lost three and in different cicrumstances?'

Letby's colleague responds: "I don't know, were they that different?"

The collague added: "Ignore me, I'm speculating."

And

Letby later messaged another colleague, who had been off work after looking after Child A, to say: "Hi [nurse] - you may have heard by now but wanted to let you know that we lost little [Child A] on Monday. Knew you looked after him."

The colleague responded: "I didn't know actually, thanks for letting me know. That's terrible!"

Letby: "It was awful...he died very suddenly and unexpectedly just after handover. Not sure why. It's gone to the coroner."

The colleague: "Oh god, he was doing really well when I left."

Not to mention the Facebook searches

I’ll elaborate later but the messages stink to me
Of her trying to cover her arse say the right things and get an idea of what her team are thinking about her and the deaths. Like she is worrying!

 

[DipsyDoodle]

I’m not saying she’s innocent, and I’m not saying she’s guilty. I don’t think any of us can truly tell at this stage. But failings in maternity care recently have become much more commonplace now. Which is utterly appalling.

I don’t think they’re trying to blame it on her to hide their failings, but I also do not think what was going on was rare. Look at other hospital trusts? These ‘scandals’ aren’t scandals anymore and that is heartbreaking. How many babies (and mums!) die because of these failings. it seems to be happening more and more. Whether she’s guilty or not I hope all the other people involved are also held to account.

I think sadly it's indicative of everything within the NHS at the moment. A few years ago it was shocking to see 10 or 15 ambulances queueing outside an A&E department, now it's almost an everyday occurrence. Someone at my partner's work was recently told she had breast cancer, went along to start her treatment and the staff were confused because her blood test results didn't look as they were expecting, turns out someone had mixed up the details and told her she had cancer when she didn't. A huge relief for her of course, but the flip side being that someone else was told they were clear, and then had to be contacted to say they did actually have cancer after all. The years of chronic underfunding, staffing issues etc are now showing, to the point where as you say, scandals aren't scandalous any more.

 

[Windowtothewall]

The one thing I'm learning from the messages is that everyone other than LL found things odd, questioned them, raised concerns, noticed things. Nurses, parents, doctors. Especially since these were all patients she was attending to as well.

If she was so dedicated to babies and her job, why wasn't she noticing unusual things and questioning/flagging/discussing them. Instead she says she was bored and unfulfilled....

So far LL hasn't noticed the weird mottling the doctors and nurses did
Hasn't noticed that 4 babies all had air problems (despite watching this same thing on TV that week) - that her colleague did

And I know from future cases, there were similar things about mottling, insulin etc that she never raised as concerns. Will be interesting to see her messages from those times and if others once again noticed stuff she didn't.

 

[Windowtothewall]

Dark humour is very common in a lot of professions. That's not the weird thing tbf.

But people wondered about motive - and sometimes people who are completely consumed by their work, need work to be exciting and thrilling to give them a high. Because they aren't getting it elsewhere. Except in her job, thrilling and exciting means death or near death.

She had stated in later messages that she was bored from having to do things just regular feeds - it seems to fit that she would need her cases to be drama filled (resuscitations, near collapses, deaths) to feel alive.

It's like a police officer who needs the high of an arrest, starting to arrest people on made up offences just to get that high.

 

[candyland_]

It’s impossible to form a real opinion when the news reporters are so different regarding the texts.