Lucy Letby Case #67

[KatieMorag]

I had a reasonable amount of empathy for LL's parents at first because I know someone whose child ended up in jail. It broke her into a million pieces. So I understand that families are victims in a sense too, who get dragged into the horrendous fallout of their loved one's crimes and their lives blown up just for loving someone. BUT... the more I hear about how LL's parents in this case have conducted themselves, the more disgusted I am, and the more it sounds likes LL's personality is a lot like them. The arrogance, sense of superiority, lack of empathy for the victims, self-centred behaviour etc.

Re the posts about jail life being cushy... there's no life that could make the loss of freedom ok for me. Imagine knowing you'll never see the sea again? Feel sand between your toes (or maybe even grass)? Paddle in fresh water? Climb to the top of a hill and see the landscape stretched out in front of you. Never, ever be completely alone again. Never wander down a high street and go into any shop that takes your fancy. Never leave the country, nor go on an airplane, boat, train or probably even car again. Never cuddle up with your own pet in your lap and watch whatever you want on tv, alone. Never go to a market, a swimming pool, a cafe, a restaurant, a concert. Never see a snowy landscape.... oh just so, so many things. Even the best version of prison life is just an existence. A very, very, small and insignificant existence.

 

[sazzt]

I've just left the two Facebook groups I was a member of because I really can't stomach the majority of the posts on there anymore, and people constantly sharing that Science on Trial crap.

I'm so sick of all the "I'm worried this is an unsafe conviction", "nothing has been proven beyond reasonable doubt", "there's no evidence", "it was a sham trial", "the defence was weak" bullshit.

And all the sympathy for Letby is vomit-inducing. Just really had enough of it.

I think I’m going to leave the Facebook groups too. They’re all the same now. Poor Lucy this, poor Lucy that… Some idiot earlier was saying he was sad because WHEN she get exonerated she won’t be able to go back into nursing again which was her whole life… they’re deluded!
They seem to have forgotten who the real victims are in this case. It makes me really angry

 

[Eirawen]

I had a reasonable amount of empathy for LL's parents at first because I know someone whose child ended up in jail. It broke her into a million pieces. So I understand that families are victims in a sense too, who get dragged into the horrendous fallout of their loved one's crimes and their lives blown up just for loving someone. BUT... the more I hear about how LL's parents in this case have conducted themselves, the more disgusted I am, and the more it sounds likes LL's personality is a lot like them. The arrogance, sense of superiority, lack of empathy for the victims, self-centred behaviour etc.

Re the posts about jail life being cushy... there's no life that could make the loss of freedom ok for me. Imagine knowing you'll never see the sea again? Feel sand between your toes (or maybe even grass)? Paddle in fresh water? Climb to the top of a hill and see the landscape stretched out in front of you. Never, ever be completely alone again. Never wander down a high street and go into any shop that takes your fancy. Never leave the country, nor go on an airplane, boat, train or probably even car again. Never cuddle up with your own pet in your lap and watch whatever you want on tv, alone. Never go to a market, a swimming pool, a cafe, a restaurant, a concert. Never see a snowy landscape.... oh just so, so many things. Even the best version of prison life is just an existence. A very, very, small and insignificant existence.

This is brilliant

 

[Boxatrix]

And I’d disagree again sorry! It’s not an unusual feature for people to keep things related to their crime in order to relive everything. It would have been impossible for her to dispose of them because it’s utterly precious to her. A blue towel with a baby’s resus on! There’s not a chance she didn’t know the implication of having kept that under her bed for years. It’s utterly precious to her and there’s no way she could bin it.

She will have been resigned to the fact that she isn’t a normal human and at some point she would be stopped and her fun would end. She even acquired more notes and more handovers after her first arrest, that’s how important it was to her.
Hey I better get rid of this note that says I’m evil because I’ve been around 16 baby deaths over this year… nope Letby tucked it into the 2016 diary. Precious.

I’ve given this example a few times so sorry for everyone that’s heard it before.
There was a man in prison for a long time for multiple rapes and murders, the whole time he was convicted and serving time as the only perpetrator. Eventually he disclosed to the prison psychologist that he offended with another person and that the other man was actually the ring leader. They would listen to a certain album on tape in the car every time they went out looking for a victim. This other man had been free for years and years. He had gotten away with it. Until his friend’s confession. When police finally had enough on him to search his home, under his floorboards was the cassette tape that the pair of them had listened to, he clearly could not be parted with it.
it’s about an attachment to the crimes and a special secret that gives them excitement and thrill. Some can’t let go of the victims bodies, some keep underwear, some keep a big diary full of notes on what they did. Some revisit the crime scene often (Letby got that pleasure every time she worked). Some join the search, go to the vigil. She did not get normal excitement, emotions or thrills from life, sex, relationships.

By the time she killed the triplets, she was utterly out of control. She could have easily killed Q the very next day. How many consecutive days could her designated babies die for? I don’t believe that’s stupidity or all down to arrogance but just an utter compulsion to kill and hurt and once she’d finally got multiples she was on a total high. She will have known for a long time that she wouldn’t be normal or live normally. She didn’t mind the arrest too much and she enjoyed the trial. None of it matters at all to her in the way that we would think or feel about it.

I agree. I have PTSD, and though I'm recovering well, if I get triggered I'm right back to the event. It's almost hallucinatory, but in a horribly hyper - real way, not a disassociated way - though apparently that's what it looks like from the outside.
I very much suspect that is the level of intensity when trophies are used by killers. It's not just a reminder, but a way to actually re-experience the event. I think whatever "reward activation" that occurs in normal brains is completely and utterly fucked in hers. Whether it warped via a learned response, or maladaption I don't know (or care) but it's very, very unlikely it's something that could respond to any kind of rehabilitation. Someone who responds with pleasure to acts as cruel as the ones she perpetrated - well, there should be no second chances for that anyway.

 

[Tofino]

Is this the Daily Mail podcast. What number is it. I've listened to one tonight where Caroline Hull speaks to the police officer but I'm not sure which one is the Dr Gibbs' interview.

Yes it’s the one called 57. Toxic Culture, the latest one.

 

[IdeletedbutI'mbackagain]

I copied the text into word to help find the error and it was 52 pages long. That’s just the main page

Holy tit you really deserve a medal for all the work you put into it!

I do find it funny when new people come on the thread and thank everyone for the amazing wiki because they naturally presume a team of people put it together and we're just like no.... it was just @Tofino

 

[cosmicstar]

The prosecution case wasn’t based on statistics either…I don’t think they referred to them even once. Despite the fact that the likelihood is that the statistical probably of it being her would be significant. BNE didn’t need statistics when the case against her was strong enough anyway. Deluded egotistical lunatics - that’s all they are.

Maybe statistics havent been referred to but they made the case. With so much circumstancial evidence, statistically speaking, it couldn't have been anyone else. Now if you only had one single proof of actual evidence, say someone had seen her do it for example, that would have been harder to prove. It would have been LL against the witness, they could have doubted the other person's character etc.

 

[Motherofpugs]

Maybe statistics havent been referred to but they made the case. With so much circumstancial evidence, statistically speaking, it couldn't have been anyone else. Now if you only had one single proof of actual evidence, say someone had seen her do it for example, that would have been harder to prove. It would have been LL against the witness, they could have doubted the other person's character etc.

To me the case was as strong as it could be for a medical serial killer. Those types of crimes just don’t accumulate the typical amount of forensics and evidence. If the prosecution had called a statistician to give evidence then maybe the conspiracy loons would have had grounds to contest but he didn’t. There was a couple of those moments in the trial - baby Es mum and Dr Jayaram who witnessed LL in the act. The difficulty is that her being in the act of harming a baby can also just look like her doing her job.

 

[Marie958519]

I have only been lurking these threads since she was found guilty, initially because I was one of those 'haven't read much, is she or isn't she?' Sort of people (didn't run my mouth about it on Facebook though ) and I have to say after just reading this and the last thread and the wiki, how on earth anyone could ever think she is innocent is beyond me.

Totally agree with what others have said, the real victims in the case seem to have been forgotten for some reason. I don't know if it's because of their anonymity but people seem to gloss over the fact these are tiny defenceless little babies she has harmed and feel sorry for her instead.

Anyway marking my place after lurking, hopefully I'll be able to keep up

 

[mumpty]

I would assume their argument is that the statistics don’t prove her guilt*, rather than prove innocence. They have just mysteriously forgotten the thousands of other pages of evidence against her

*by which I mean there is probably something like 0.001 chance that she was on shift coincidentally to all of the deaths. Which even to the least statistical minded would still be ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ for her guilt. For what it’s worth, I do believe that in all of the ?15 possible deaths that she was on shift for, it is likely that 1 may not have been her and was natural causes. Doesn’t change the fact the she is an evil baby killing witch.

Sorry, quoting myself but in the article another poster shared the actual figure they decided on was 0.0049% that the other deaths on the unit (not the 7 we know she is convicted of) occurred by chance/natural deaths, so 99.99% certain they were caused by an external factor. Unless COCH are incredibly unlucky and there are two SKs there, or a mysterious as yet unidentified bug is also killing babies, I’d say the most likely option is that they were all killed by LL I think these statisticians know this but are trying to forward their own agenda to gain themselves some fame

 

[MmmB777]

People even seem to forget there are multiple babies absolutely filled with air. That’s the reality. It’s not about her always being on shift. It’s her being right there, proven by absolutely extensive data analytics, her own records in notes and admission in interview, countless witnesses AND then babies dying incredibly suddenly out of nowhere, with bodies filled with air. With no explanation as to how that air got there. Many times with more injuries too. Her own texts all the way throughout explain these deaths were totally unexpected. It’s honestly just absolute idiots at this point that can’t see what’s happened.
What happens to their statistics when it’s now known she was there for 16 deaths? 30 more serious collapses? When will the penny drop ffs

 

[cosmicstar]

Sorry, quoting myself but in the article another poster shared the actual figure they decided on was 0.0049% that the other deaths on the unit (not the 7 we know she is convicted of) occurred by chance/natural deaths, so 99.99% certain they were caused by an external factor. Unless COCH are incredibly unlucky and there are two SKs there, or a mysterious as yet unidentified bug is also killing babies, I’d say the most likely option is that they were all killed by LL I think these statisticians know this but are trying to forward their own agenda to gain themselves some fame

Precisely what I was trying to say. Couldn't agree more!

 

[goldielox]

From The Times last night

Damning email told of ‘chaos’ on Lucy Letby ward

archived 26 Aug 2023 23:49:19 UTC

archive.ph

 

[Tofino]

From The Times last night

Damning email told of ‘chaos’ on Lucy Letby ward

archived 26 Aug 2023 23:49:19 UTC

archive.ph

Oh look someone else turning a blind eye then retiring…

Hospital managers asked the Cheshire coroner, Dr Nicholas Rheinberg, to investigate the seven baby deaths in February 2017. The coroner declined, according to sources, telling the trust he was not a “quality-assurance service” for the NHS. Rheinberg retired that year.


Sandie Bohin

Describing the moment she realised babies had been intentionally harmed, Bohin, who lives in Guernsey, added: “I was sitting at my dining room table in the winter, and it was dark outside, and I was looking at this baby’s x-ray, thinking, ‘This baby has had an air embolism.

“Then I thought, ‘It can’t be.’ I’d never seen anything like that in my career . . . but nothing else explained it.

“The x-rays were in front of me, several of them, all showing air in the babies’ vessels. That’s when I thought: ‘No, it has to be, and it has to be deliberate.’”

 

[tay65]

Yes it’s the one called 57. Toxic Culture, the latest one.

Thank you. I'll watch that now.
---

I had a reasonable amount of empathy for LL's parents at first because I know someone whose child ended up in jail. It broke her into a million pieces. So I understand that families are victims in a sense too, who get dragged into the horrendous fallout of their loved one's crimes and their lives blown up just for loving someone. BUT... the more I hear about how LL's parents in this case have conducted themselves, the more disgusted I am, and the more it sounds likes LL's personality is a lot like them. The arrogance, sense of superiority, lack of empathy for the victims, self-centred behaviour etc.

Re the posts about jail life being cushy... there's no life that could make the loss of freedom ok for me. Imagine knowing you'll never see the sea again? Feel sand between your toes (or maybe even grass)? Paddle in fresh water? Climb to the top of a hill and see the landscape stretched out in front of you. Never, ever be completely alone again. Never wander down a high street and go into any shop that takes your fancy. Never leave the country, nor go on an airplane, boat, train or probably even car again. Never cuddle up with your own pet in your lap and watch whatever you want on tv, alone. Never go to a market, a swimming pool, a cafe, a restaurant, a concert. Never see a snowy landscape.... oh just so, so many things. Even the best version of prison life is just an existence. A very, very, small and insignificant existence.

You've described her future existence very well. When I was out walking the dog yesterday in the fields, woods and canal, I actually thought she'll never be able to do simple things like this again, never see the swans and other wildlife or chat to other dog walkers. I thought her outdoor life will probably be a concrete yard. She'll never sit in a garden on a sunny day with friends drinking a cold beer or glass of wine. Her future looks very bleak.

 

[Tofino]

The mention of the coroner in the article has reminded me that I really hope the inquiry covers the coroner/post mortem process in the hospital. As rare as it is, they can’t just assume that because a baby never left a hospital that there was no deliberate harm if there is something unexplained about the death. They missed features on X-rays and came to conclusions about things like the liver injury that were unlikely because it would never enter their heads that someone may deliberately harm them. They also missed opportunities to stop her.

 

[cesarea-tinajero]

i work in a hospital, altho I'm medical-adjacent rather than medical myself (phd dr rather than md dr) and theres been a group of us that have followed it since the start of the trial - all thought she was guilty, some earlier than others, but everyone agreed by the time she finished testifying.

however, the amount of people who come and chat tit now, 'i haven't really followed it, read much, but can't help thinking its an awful miscarriage of justice', is doing my head in. just feel like getting up and shutting my office door in their face until they learn how to read

these are bloody smart people too!

-

my phd was actually in rare paediatric disease and that nutter trying to say she's innocent is so full of tit, and I doubt she has a phd.

 

[wine o clock]

I had a reasonable amount of empathy for LL's parents at first because I know someone whose child ended up in jail. It broke her into a million pieces. So I understand that families are victims in a sense too, who get dragged into the horrendous fallout of their loved one's crimes and their lives blown up just for loving someone. BUT... the more I hear about how LL's parents in this case have conducted themselves, the more disgusted I am, and the more it sounds likes LL's personality is a lot like them. The arrogance, sense of superiority, lack of empathy for the victims, self-centred behaviour etc.

Re the posts about jail life being cushy... there's no life that could make the loss of freedom ok for me. Imagine knowing you'll never see the sea again? Feel sand between your toes (or maybe even grass)? Paddle in fresh water? Climb to the top of a hill and see the landscape stretched out in front of you. Never, ever be completely alone again. Never wander down a high street and go into any shop that takes your fancy. Never leave the country, nor go on an airplane, boat, train or probably even car again. Never cuddle up with your own pet in your lap and watch whatever you want on tv, alone. Never go to a market, a swimming pool, a cafe, a restaurant, a concert. Never see a snowy landscape.... oh just so, so many things. Even the best version of prison life is just an existence. A very, very, small and insignificant existence.

This soooo pleases me for her!!! When I read all the hate about her pink room… I’m like hang on a minute…. Let her sit in it for decades … let this awful cruel thing have 3 dreary visits wi parents a month making small talk … never to eat in a restaurant never have a cocktail or attend a party … can’t even wear her kitten heals!!! it’s a far cry from the life she had …. Nowt will fetch them babies bk but I get pleasure in knowing she will never see or experience anything outside them walls again!!!! Mummy n daddy will have to send her a postcard from their hollibobs. Didums!!! Xx

 

[sebanna]

Thanks!

The post here basically removes Letby's killing from the data, then analyses the remaining deaths to find that they aren't distributed as you would expect either, then raises that there must have been something else going on.

The problem is, not all of her crimes may have been charged - there might well be other cases of Letby attacking babies, so removing her known crimes from the dataset does not ensure that the dataset you're left with is free from Letby crimes.

The chart show that the neonatal deaths thankfully really reduced after she was removed in July 2016. The other deaths all occurred while she was on the unit and we have little information about how expected and explainable these deaths were. There is a big difference between a death being a natural tragedy and one that was very likely to be murder but may not stand up in court.

 

[MavisBeacon]

i work in a hospital, altho I'm medical-adjacent rather than medical myself (phd dr rather than md dr) and theres been a group of us that have followed it since the start of the trial - all thought she was guilty, some earlier than others, but everyone agreed by the time she finished testifying.

however, the amount of people who come and chat tit now, 'i haven't really followed it, read much, but can't help thinking its an awful miscarriage of justice', is doing my head in. just feel like getting up and shutting my office door in their face until they learn how to read

these are bloody smart people too!

-

my phd was actually in rare paediatric disease and that nutter trying to say she's innocent is so full of tit, and I doubt she has a phd.

Babe, same.
From my digging, I don't believe S. Adams was ever awarded a PhD. She did do research for several years, but not in a relevant field and frankly sounds like she is mentally unwell. People like Dick Gill and my super science bro rationalist friends do my head in - they're so used to being able to use science to prove people wrong that they can't see in this case maybe the science actually doesn't support her innocence.

Finally, Ben Myers is not thick. He's a leading criminal barrister with years of experience, as is BNE. And Judge Goss doesn't strike me as someone who would be fine with a dodgy trial in his courtroom. So why couldn't the defence muster anything more than "Lucy says she didn't do it, maybe these experts and grieving parents are wrong, here's a plumber." Something doesn't add up, but the answer is that she's guilty, not that the stats say she couldn't have done it.